[Johnny Phoenix]

Hey everyone, I am new to this forum so let me start by saying hello... Hello!

Okay now that that is out of the way, I recently started reading the series and I am currently about half-way through MoI. I am confused about the Pannion's poisoning of the warrens. If Deadhouse Gates happens at the same time as MoI then why were the characters in DG able to use their warrens? If that answer is going to come later in the book then let me know. I just got to Book Three: Capustan.

On a side note, what's up with Tool and the Seguleh? In GotM Tool takes out Raest like the tyrant was no more then a bug under his feet and K'Rul said Tool was pretty much the supreme badass of the world. He also said that Tool had no equal. Yet Tool is not confident in taking down Mok and is all torn apart after fighting off the Pannion's forces. What is up with that? Again if this is answered later in the book please don't spoil it.

[Ozymandiac]

It's been a time since I've read DG, so I can't be sure about the first question. I think most magic used in DG is spirit magic (by the Wickans), so it involves the spirits of the earth and wind and is not bound to warrens. On the other hand, they do use the Imperial Warren and Kulp uses his warren..

To the second question: according to K'rul, Tool is the best warrior on the planet. That doesn't mean he actually is. The Seguleh are also superb warriors, so it's possible they are evenly matched. I don't recall Tool being torn apart by Pannions, but if you send a whole army against one man, it's not strange he gets into trouble. Being good doesn't mean being invincible.

[D'rek]

The poisoning of the warrens was limited to the area of control of the Pannion Domin (and hence the reason why the Domin's plan was to expand outwards in all directions suicidally). The reason they didn't use warrens much in DG was because hordes of Soletaken and D'ivers were running rampant through many of the warrens due to the Path of Hands.

[Ozymandiac]

Ah yes that's it. I looked at the part in DG where Kulp mentions warrens run over by D'ivers, but didn't put the pieces together..

[Abyss]

On the warrens point, i think it's fair to say that between the PoH and the poisoning over in the Domin, things just weren't happy in warrenville for the duration of DG. That said, you have healers on the Chain using Denul, Pearl using Mokra on Kalam, the various Wickan shamans using spirit magic, etc etc.

On the Tool thing, he didn't exactly squish Raest. Really all he did was hit him a lot with his sword, and Raest's body was already a mess by then. It didn't stop Raest from possessing Crokus' uncle.


- Abyss, could say Reast cried 'uncle' as a result of the beating...

[Johnny Phoenix]

Thanks for the replies. The warren topic makes more sense now. I recall reading that the warrens became worse the closer you get to the Domin's forces. I just thought that if a warren was in trouble in one place, it would be in trouble everywhere else as well.

But I'm still not convinced about Tool. Ozymandiac, you said that it was only according to K'Rul. Well yeah, but this is an Elder God we're talking about. I don't see why his opinion wouldn't be correct. He didn't just praise Tool, he said something to Raest along the lines of: "You have no idea what First Sword signifies, Tool is unequaled in this world."

Abyss, to me Tool made Raest his *****. The fact that all he did was hit him with his sword a few times is the very reason I think that. I think Raest just got lucky in being able to transport his soul into Mammot. He knew that if he didn't that Tool would obliterate him completed.

But either way, when you have a being who would have completely overpowered a Jaghut tyrant, even if the tyrant was weakened, it seems weird to me that a mortal could take him down. Yeah I know, the Seguleh are incredible warriors, but so far I haven't seen Mok destroy a bridge by simply looking at it.

[Hetan]

Hello and welcome

One thing about Tool, if you think of him in similar terms to the K'Chain Che'malle who are also undead, it is stated that they are not as effective (faster) as they would be if they were live, then it might help a bit. Also, K'rul has been out of this realm for a long long time and possibly hasn't caught up with that yet. Raest too was not in his full power which is why he needed the Finnest.

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

Everyone is looking at the Tool thing the wrong way I think. For starters, he never made Raest his bitch in any way, he fought off Raest's finnest, but he was beaten back so much that he called on Paran to fight it, and all that they really needed to do was hold it off until the Azath took it. Second, Tool was a little more powerful in GotM because of that huge magic deadening effect he had. In MoI he doesn't have this, but Lady Envy still remarks on how powerful he is. I think this means that he couldn't easily be overcome magically, despite the fact that he has no active magic he can use in a fight. The problem with Tool's confidence about Mok, is that it would be a strictly martial fight, and Seguleh are complete badasses when it comes to swordfighting. And Mok is third among them (and its hinted by K'rul he may be even better than that).

And about the Pannions...he was fighting entire freaking armies!!! lol of course he is going to be showing some wear and tear after that. If you are wondering why the Seguleh apparently haven't amassed injuries as well, they are live humans, and were probably healed by Envy after every battle.


@Hetan- I've never bought that argument about the T'lan Imass being more effective fighters and faster when they were alive. the K'Chain Che Malle were all dead, buried, and then resurrected. The T'lan Imass underwent a ritual of unprecedented proportions to preserve their lives, they never actually died, and so I think as long as they have all their limbs intact, they are at least as effective as they were when they were the Imass.

[Hetan]

WhiskeyJackDaniels, on 20 November 2009 - 01:27 AM, said:

@Hetan- I've never bought that argument about the T'lan Imass being more effective fighters and faster when they were alive. the K'Chain Che Malle were all dead, buried, and then resurrected. The T'lan Imass underwent a ritual of unprecedented proportions to preserve their lives, they never actually died, and so I think as long as they have all their limbs intact, they are at least as effective as they were when they were the Imass.

I'm not going to post spoilers here but there is further evidence to support this

[Johnny Phoenix]

Hmm... interesting points. I see what you guys are saying. Though to be fair, and correct me if I am wrong, no one can be sure as to what exactly drew Paran into that warren, or why he was able to basically ground and pound Raests finnest. And remember it wasn't Raest that Paran beat up, this was after the scene with Tool, Kruppe, and K'Rul. Paran was fighting the Jaghut's finnest in a warren at the same time that the Bridgeburners were fighting the possessed Mammot.

I might be missing a lot of information since I am only halfway through the third book (or maybe I just forgot a lot of stuff from GotM), but Paran did a lot of outstanding things in GotM. I still don't understand the scene in Dragnipur when he summons Oponn and forces him to release a hound. It's not so much the release that puzzles me, but how Paran was able to grab a god and order him around, unless he was already the Deck Master by then.

But anyway, I guess my questions in this thread have been answered. Thanks everyone.

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

Hetan, on 20 November 2009 - 01:36 AM, said:

WhiskeyJackDaniels, on 20 November 2009 - 01:27 AM, said:

@Hetan- I've never bought that argument about the T'lan Imass being more effective fighters and faster when they were alive. the K'Chain Che Malle were all dead, buried, and then resurrected. The T'lan Imass underwent a ritual of unprecedented proportions to preserve their lives, they never actually died, and so I think as long as they have all their limbs intact, they are at least as effective as they were when they were the Imass.

I'm not going to post spoilers here but there is further evidence to support this

Damnit...this semester needs to end for me so I can start reading again...

[Sinisdar Toste]

Johnny_Phoenix, on 20 November 2009 - 02:17 AM, said:

Hmm... interesting points. I see what you guys are saying. Though to be fair, and correct me if I am wrong, no one can be sure as to what exactly drew Paran into that warren, or why he was able to basically ground and pound Raests finnest. And remember it wasn't Raest that Paran beat up, this was after the scene with Tool, Kruppe, and K'Rul. Paran was fighting the Jaghut's finnest in a warren at the same time that the Bridgeburners were fighting the possessed Mammot.

I might be missing a lot of information since I am only halfway through the third book (or maybe I just forgot a lot of stuff from GotM), but Paran did a lot of outstanding things in GotM. I still don't understand the scene in Dragnipur when he summons Oponn and forces him to release a hound. It's not so much the release that puzzles me, but how Paran was able to grab a god and order him around, unless he was already the Deck Master by then.

But anyway, I guess my questions in this thread have been answered. Thanks everyone.

everything that paran does is after he has the blood of the hound in him, which gives him some hound-like abilities, such as holding a god by the scruff of the neck and tearing a finnest apart and other stuff that happens in MoI

[D'rek]

Sinisdar Toste, on 20 November 2009 - 04:47 AM, said:

Johnny_Phoenix, on 20 November 2009 - 02:17 AM, said:

Hmm... interesting points. I see what you guys are saying. Though to be fair, and correct me if I am wrong, no one can be sure as to what exactly drew Paran into that warren, or why he was able to basically ground and pound Raests finnest. And remember it wasn't Raest that Paran beat up, this was after the scene with Tool, Kruppe, and K'Rul. Paran was fighting the Jaghut's finnest in a warren at the same time that the Bridgeburners were fighting the possessed Mammot.

I might be missing a lot of information since I am only halfway through the third book (or maybe I just forgot a lot of stuff from GotM), but Paran did a lot of outstanding things in GotM. I still don't understand the scene in Dragnipur when he summons Oponn and forces him to release a hound. It's not so much the release that puzzles me, but how Paran was able to grab a god and order him around, unless he was already the Deck Master by then.

But anyway, I guess my questions in this thread have been answered. Thanks everyone.

everything that paran does is after he has the blood of the hound in him, which gives him some hound-like abilities, such as holding a god by the scruff of the neck and tearing a finnest apart and other stuff that happens in MoI

Well, sorta. He gets that blood of the Hounds bit, which does indeed give him plenty of prowess, but summoning Oponn is the result of him (or his sword) being Oponn's tool and he's just doing a little reversal-effect-thingy. That being said, it could be that the force/will of having that Hound-blood is what allowed him to summon Oponn and the usual mortal-tool of a god can't normally accomplish such.

There's also him being re-formatted by Oponn at Hood's Gate.
And all the stuff revealed about him in MoI.

Altogether, Paran is a special child who can do a lot of things. Sometimes you just gotta roll with it...

[Johnny Phoenix]

I could be mistaken, but Paran does not have the hounds blood when he is in Dragnipur. It is in that warren that he commands Oponn to release a hound and ends up being somehow joined with said hound after the release. It is this very event that seems to link him with the hound. So no, Paran was able to basically bully an Ascendant before his merging with a hound. There is obviously something very special about this man, and damn I can't wait to find out what it is! I hope to finish MoI in two to three weeks.

[Sinisdar Toste]

no, the only reason paran is able to enter the sword in the first place is because he gets contaminated with the hounds blood. this is right after rake kills ganrod and doan.

[maquis]

Then how come we never heard In MOI that the warrens are overrun by Soletaken and D'ivers??? Those Soletaken and D'ivers hordes are regional as well???

[worry]

The Path of Hands was thousands of miles away from Genebackis. The vast majority of magic users don't seem to travel the warrens anyway, they just channel the sorcery, though even the exceptions to that would still be geographically distant from the Path of Hands.

[Rage]

K'rul is an elder god. In this world, the gods are not omnipotent. The gods can make mistakes. Look at Oppon choosing Ganoes Paran in Gardens of the Moon. If you haven't read GofM, don't worry about it. Here's another example, just in case. Anomander Rake and Caladan Brood are ascendents and yet they don't know everything. From what I can piece together (which might not be correct), the elder gods are simply very, very old ascendants. An example from Deadhouse Gates is the mess with Fener. Again, if you haven't read DG, I'm not going to ruin it with specifics. Sorry if this doesn't answer your question, but I have done my best. Let me know if I just confuzzled you or if I helped at all.

This post has been edited by Rage: 06 February 2012 - 02:58 AM