[EsotericForest]

So my first question is easy enough, who's on the cover of Memories of Ice, Tor version?

My second question is about the hounds of shadow, it isn't really related to this book in particular, more of a question in general. When I read the word "hound" I think of the AKC group, Hounds...a far less scary prospect for a little understood killing beast . But yet whenever I see art for Steven Erikson's books, the hounds appear to be large wolves. If you look in the dictionary, the word hound, can describe a dog in general, but it doesn't really say wolf. But is this mainly where he's coming with in regards to the name?

[End of Disc One]

Answer to first question: Gruntle and Stonny.

[Abyss]

EsotericForest, on 13 November 2009 - 06:35 PM, said:

...My second question is about the hounds of shadow, it isn't really related to this book in particular, more of a question in general. When I read the word "hound" I think of the AKC group, Hounds...a far less scary prospect for a little understood killing beast . But yet whenever I see art for Steven Erikson's books, the hounds appear to be large wolves. If you look in the dictionary, the word hound, can describe a dog in general, but it doesn't really say wolf. But is this mainly where he's coming with in regards to the name?

The explanation is artistic liberty with the covers. Virtually every description of the Hounds in the first three books is pretty clear that they are big dogs with varying appearances. They may be vaguely wolf-like - notably Shan - , but they aren't wolves.

- Abyss, liberal artist.

[ElT]

I guess the difference is that the word Hound carries connotations of subservience; I guess you could even say that they are "domesticated".

I've always seen the Hounds as oversized dogs, rather than the narrow jawed, shaggy wolves. I think the cover art for TtH makes them look as such as well (the UK cover art that is).

This post has been edited by Abyss: 13 November 2009 - 08:06 PM
Reason for edit: Modgod edit due to ref to characters or things appearing only in later books.

[caladanbrood]

Well, Hound is simply a word to describe any dog. Generally a working dog, but yes, it can describe any. That's why when descriptions are given in the books, it emphasises that in general they are huge, muscled, powerful etc.




I always think the best picture I've seen of a hound it this one - they don't particularly look like wolves, but they look bloody lethal



(Credit on that one in this thread: http://forum.malazan...showtopic=15390 )

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

Thats a cool drawing, but I'm assuming the man is shadowthrone? He usually makes himself seem short, and I picture the hounds as being at least up to the chest of a normal sized person. I think that was the main issue the op had, he was envisioning the hounds in the book as normal dogs that come up to about your knee, instead of almost pony sized musclebound creatures

[EsotericForest]

To me they sound and in some of the illustration look more like Dire Wolves. Thinking of them as some kind of rabid domestic dog doesn't sound quite so frightening. Could be because I've worked with so many agressive domestic dogs at the shelter I worked at.

[Circle Breaker]

Quote

"A wild wolf is genetically little more distant from the domesticated dog than a wild mustang is to a quarter horse. (That wolf and dog can be hybridized, while a fox and dog cannot, points to the genetic and ancestral affinities of wolf and dog.)...."In actuality, a poodle, like any purebred dog, already has innumerable wolf genes since they share a close common ancestry." Dr. Michael W. Fox, D.V.M., Ph.D., D.Sc., Vice President, Bioethics, Humane Society of the United States. Affidavit.

The species which the Hounds of Shadow are members of is very old and could very well be ancestors of the modern dogs, and as such could have more wolfish traits. As Hounds of Shadow are always called Hounds with a capital h, it clearly is more of a name than an exact scientific specification. And since the HoS do follow their master, to some degree at least, they can be thought of as domesticated. Thus it wouldn't be too big of a stretch to call them hounds, even if they're not truly dogs as we know them, for the lack of a better word in the English language.

Erikson also often avoids describing things too carefully, letting readers use their imagination to fill in the rest for a much more personal touch. After all, everyone in their imagination decides what is scary/beautiful/cool/etc. Bottom line really being: don't spend too much time fussing over minor details, like which subspecies the Hounds are part of, but rather focus on the bigger picture, that they're pretty magnificent beings as far as canines go. So, if big dire wolves seem more scary than muscular poodles the size of donkeys to you and don't fight too much with the descriptions you've been given so far, then I'd say go with that and enjoy the story. Erikson will later prove you right or wrong, if it's really relevant to any events.

[EsotericForest]

Nice post I have to say, thanks Circle Breaker. I do agree with you, and had the feeling that was what Erikson was more going for, but I thought I'd try to make sure. Evil bloodhounds somehow ruin the story like a bit for me

[Abyss]

I dunno.. there's a description of Gear in GotM, the scene where it's pursuing Harlock and Tattersail and Paran confront it, that makes it seem like a massive tank of a dog as opposed to anything wolf-like, and i think it was pretty convincing... herewego, thank you amazon look inside function...

GotM, mmpb, p125

"Down one aisle...loped a dog the size of a mule. Its massive head was slung low forward in front of the broad, bunched muscles of its shoulders. That it had seen a night without rain was marked by its dusty, dry, mottled gray and black fur. the animal's muzzle was speckled with gray, and its eyes glowed amber."


And further into the book when QB goes to chat with Shadowthrone there are some descriptions of individual Hounds, there's Blind - "pasty white", Baran "...mottled brown and tan, lean and scarred", and Shan "...long, black and sleek"...

...point being, the Hounds are seven/five/nine/whatever distinct massive dogs, not a set of more or less similar wolf types.

- Abyss, ...let the dogs out...

[EsotericForest]

I see what your saying, though the actual descriptions are vague at best. One key element that's missing is the length of fur the hounds of shadow have, since that would greatly affect their appearance. Really the main then you gather from the description is that they are abnormally large, and extremely powerful. So though it does give a hair coloration and eye color, it's lacking everything else. So is it more of wolf-like canid, or a pittbull on steroids? Haha

[Circle Breaker]

Thanks EF, but Abyss cheated and actually bothered to find a quote to prove the perfectly viable (to that point) wolfiness theory wrong.

Makes me wonder if Godwin's law could be rewritten on these forums for book quotes.

[Sinisdar Toste]

IMNSHO, this is the best depiction of the HoS to date and is my reference for any and all description questions
from left to right: Ganrod, Baran, Blind, Doan, Gear, Rood, Shan

Attached File(s)

•  Anomander Rake vs. the Seven Hounds of Shadow.jpg (372.21K)
  Number of downloads: 12

This post has been edited by Sinisdar Toste: 17 November 2009 - 12:35 AM

[EsotericForest]

Circle Breaker, on 17 November 2009 - 12:18 AM, said:

Thanks EF, but Abyss cheated and actually bothered to find a quote to prove the perfectly viable (to that point) wolfiness theory wrong.

Makes me wonder if Godwin's law could be rewritten on these forums for book quotes.

I can see how the quotes that Abyss posted would prove that the animal isn't 100% wolf, but I fail to see how it proves they don't look very wolf-like either. Like I said before, the description is pretty vague.

[champ]

i imagine them the size of a bull! nice doggies...

[Circle Breaker]

EsotericForest, on 17 November 2009 - 01:28 AM, said:

I can see how the quotes that Abyss posted would prove that the animal isn't 100% wolf, but I fail to see how it proves they don't look very wolf-like either. Like I said before, the description is pretty vague.

Well, it pretty clearly says dog there and that's a fair definition on my book, since it doesn't offer any hints towards other odd racial features than extraordinary size. When it comes to two legged beings, Erikson tends to remember to mention any oddities at first glance, if those exist, and for instance not just describe Eres or Imass as humans at first and then give details proving otherwise only later.

Like Abyss said, their looks are rather distinctive, so one or two might sport some features that could be considered wolfish, but without a quote to prove otherwise, I'd rather not argue about all of them having some racial wolfish features. Too bad the wiki project failed in catching a larger following and going through all the books just to look for clues about the Hounds is a pretty long project for one person.

EDIT: Evil board automagically formats the posts and kills some spaces at random resulting in annoying typos.

This post has been edited by Circle Breaker: 17 November 2009 - 12:39 PM

[EsotericForest]

Yes I'm aware it clearly states the world "dog"...that being said, isn't it just a word to describe a canine in general? Just like hound? Lets also remember that using the word dog could describe something like a siberian husky or an alaskan malamute...or could describe a chinese crested. It's again, a very vague description. Let me point out again that I'm not saying they're 100% wolves, just trying to see if they're quite wolfish or not.

It's too bad about wiki, because I use it A LOT, it's a very helpful resource.

[Abyss]

I suppose there's nothing precluding some or all of them from being 'wolf-like'. I just don't read any of the descriptions that way.

Consider the desription of Baaljaag and Garath the first time we see them with Lady Envy... MoI mmpg p 44...

"Flanking her were two dogs, the one on her left as big as a hill-pony, shaggy, wolf-like, the other short-haired, dun-coloured and heavily muscled."

Now Garath's actual link to the Hounds of Shadow is vague as all hell, but it's there, and that description clearly distinguishes between the 'wolf-like' dog (whom we know is ac tually a wolf (ay) ) and the other one.



- Abyss, hungry like the woooooolllllllfffffff...... awooooooo....

[D'rek]

I like to think of them as giant coloured bichon-frises, but that's just me...

[EsotericForest]

Have to admit, that would be pretty terrifying