[Eispeis]

Just finished TtH (while at work no less...), and I'm reeling as usual.

I'll just write these questions as I remember them, and not in any particular order.


1. The Trygalle Trade Guild with Mappo and Gruntle on board are now continuing their journey towards Icarium on Lether after a short visit to Hood's realm and Dragnipur?

2. It was Bellam Nom who rescued Harllo from Venaz outside of the mines?

3. How and/or why did chaos and the army disappear from Dragnipur when Rake arrived? The fight seemed hopeless until he arrived and "freed" Mother Dark from Dragnipur. I didn't really understand what happened there either...

4. Dassem is now walking broken away from Darujihstan while Karsa stays?

5. When did Karsa's daughters arrive, and who are they daughters of? They were suddenly there after the Hounds of Light were disposed of.

6. Shouldn't there be more Hounds of Light remaining, where did they go? Barathol wounded one, Karsa and the Seguleh 2nd killed three, Tulas Shorn killed/took three, and the Bear following Samar dev took one. That leaves two unscathed and one hurt by Barathol.

7. Were the Hounds of Shadow killed by Envy and Spite?

8. Do we assume that Baruk heals Chaur eventually? It seems careless that Barathol goes to Scillara and not makes sure that Chaur is OK in the Epilogue.

9. How many characters we've met before are actually killed in this book. The numbers are staggering even though not everyone is equally important. Lady Challice, Bluepearl, Mallet, Rake, Murillo, Orfantal, Hood(!), probably a host of others I've forgotten. Additionally several characters are met and killed during the book. Endest Silann, Seerdomin, Kedeviss, probably more. People have complained about the number of killings before, I know, but this is the first book I've actually been surprised by the amount of bloodlust Erikson has

10. What happens to Snell(?) do we assume that Bellam comes to collect him?


I think that's all for now. Sorry about all these questions, but I need to get my head screwed on straight before I start DoD.

This post has been edited by Eispeis: 27 October 2009 - 07:24 PM

[amphibian]

I've answered the ones I can easily and leave the harder questions to those who can explain them better:

 Eispeis, on 27 October 2009 - 07:21 PM, said:

1. The Trygalle Trade Guild with Mappo and Gruntle on board are now continuing their journey towards Icarium on Lether after a short visit to Hood's realm and Dragnipur? Yes.

2. It was Bellam Nom who rescued Harllo from Venaz outside of the mines? Yes.

4. Dassem is now walking broken away from Darujihstan while Karsa stays? Yes.

5. When did Karsa's daughters arrive, and who are they daughters of? They were suddenly there after the Hounds of Light were disposed of. Do you remember the Teblor women Karsa raped back in House of Chains?

6. Shouldn't there be more Hounds of Light remaining, where did they go? Barathol wounded one, Karsa and the Seguleh 2nd killed three, Tulas Shorn killed/took three, and the Bear following Samar dev took one. That leaves two unscathed and one hurt by Barathol. All we have to go on for Hounds of Light is what's in the book. Where they went is a mystery.

8. Do we assume that Baruk heals Chaur eventually? It seems careless that Barathol goes to Scillara and not makes sure that Chaur is OK in the Epilogue. It seemed to be the Deadhouse that was prompting the healing of Chaur's brain and preserving his life. Barathol may not be able to enter the Azath at this point.

9. How many characters we've met before are actually killed in this book. The numbers are staggering even though not everyone is equally important. Lady Challice, Bluepearl, Mallet, Rake, Murillo, Orfantal, Hood(!), probably a host of others I've forgotten. Additionally several characters are met and killed during the book. Endest Silann, Seerdomin, Kedeviss, probably more. People have complained about the number of killings before, I know, but this is the first book I've actually been surprised by the amount of bloodlust Erikson has Really? Millions of people die in The Bonehunters. Granted, they're mostly off-screen, but jeebus, that book was bloody.

This post has been edited by amphibian: 27 October 2009 - 09:19 PM

[Sinisdar Toste]

The ones amphibian didn't get too

 Eispeis, on 27 October 2009 - 07:21 PM, said:

3. How and/or why did chaos and the army disappear from Dragnipur when Rake arrived? The fight seemed hopeless until he arrived and "freed" Mother Dark from Dragnipur. I didn't really understand what happened there either... the reason for chaos pursuing the wagon was that it held the gate to darkness, rake moves the gate, no reason for chaos to continue its chase. darkness is basically the first manifestation of order, if chaos caught it then the entire universe goes poof

7. Were the Hounds of Shadow killed by Envy and Spite? No

8. Do we assume that Baruk heals Chaur eventually? It seems careless that Barathol goes to Scillara and not makes sure that Chaur is OK in the Epilogue.chaur will be fine, but baruk would probably not want to go near an azath. chaur will be alive, but i suspect he will no longer be the same kind of disabled person

10. What happens to Snell(?) do we assume that Bellam comes to collect him? i imagine that eventually bellam will come to collect him, what happens then is anyones guess. snells a real fucker so i don't really care


I think that's all for now. Sorry about all these questions, but I need to get my head screwed on straight before I start DoD.

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

 Eispeis, on 27 October 2009 - 07:21 PM, said:

3. How and/or why did chaos and the army disappear from Dragnipur when Rake arrived? The fight seemed hopeless until he arrived and "freed" Mother Dark from Dragnipur. I didn't really understand what happened there either...

Sinisdar covered the main thing about that fight. But if you are asking why as soon as Rake showed up the armies of Chaos suddenly got pushed back (a few hundred yards i think it was), it was because Rake was such a strong individual that his presence pushed them back. There's precedent for this earlier in the book, the chaos army is closing in, and then when Hood shows up they are pushed back a league just by his presence.

[Eispeis]

I love these forums.

Thank you one and all.

Regarding Karsa's daughters I remember him raping the Teblor women, but that doesn't explain how the daughters suddenly appeared in Darujihstan after several years.

I'll grant that the Bonehunters was a "deadlier" book, but TtH killed a significant number of named characters, and established characters. There wasn't really any point to Murillo's death except give Emoboy an excuse to kill Gorlas. That could have been done just as easily any other way.

In any case I've heard all the arguments of how this is the Malazan Book of the Fallen, hell I've even used them myself, but Murillo's death seems utterly pointless and unnecessary to me.

This post has been edited by Eispeis: 28 October 2009 - 05:57 AM

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

 Eispeis, on 28 October 2009 - 05:49 AM, said:

I love these forums.
Regarding Karsa's daughters I remember him raping the Teblor women, but that doesn't explain how the daughters suddenly appeared in Darujihstan after several years.

The timeline does not matter...

Though SE does really kinda stomp on it in this book with Karsa's daughters and Harlo

[D'rek]

 Eispeis, on 28 October 2009 - 05:49 AM, said:

I love these forums.

Thank you one and all.

Regarding Karsa's daughters I remember him raping the Teblor women, but that doesn't explain how the daughters suddenly appeared in Darujihstan after several years.

In the prologue both daughters have visions/dreams/tingling-spideysenses of Karsa's return and set out to journey south the meet up with Karsa with the 3-legged dog.

 Eispeis, on 28 October 2009 - 05:49 AM, said:

I'll grant that the Bonehunters was a "deadlier" book, but TtH killed a significant number of named characters, and established characters. There wasn't really any point to Murillo's death except give Emoboy an excuse to kill Gorlas. That could have been done just as easily any other way.

In any case I've heard all the arguments of how this is the Malazan Book of the Fallen, hell I've even used them myself, but Murillo's death seems utterly pointless and unnecessary to me.

Murillio died because he was a good man who would stand up for injustices and try to improve the world, but also far past his prime and not the duellist or adulterer he once was. This is first shown in MoI when he speaks at length with Coll about how his position in Darujhistan is being replaced by new up-and-coming fencers/seducers, but he's still committed to doing the right thing when he has the choice (hence how they help the Mhybe). TtH reminds us of this with his getting stabbed by an angry boyfriend early on. For the rest of TtH he tries to find himself a new place in the world beyond his old life as a fop, and tries to no longer be an overzealous honor-bound noble-type, thus him working at Stonny's despite that she overcharges and barely teaches, and beyond that he tries not to be a noble knight to the clearly-distraught Stonny. Murillo can't escape himself, though, and eventually has to try and do the right thing, which means not ignoring Stonny and confronting Gorlas. Murillio's too old to beat Gorlas and he knows it, but he still feels compelled to do what he believes is right. And he dies for it.

Doesn't seem pointless to me, it's just a sad ending to one man's attempts to make the world a better place. He did plenty of good throughout his life, but he couldn't give it up and eventually he was outmatched.


Also, DG has plenty more named characters dying...

[Eispeis]

 D, on 29 October 2009 - 02:49 AM, said:

In the prologue both daughters have visions/dreams/tingling-spideysenses of Karsa's return and set out to journey south the meet up with Karsa with the 3-legged dog.

Fair enough, it must've slipped my mind.

 D, on 29 October 2009 - 02:49 AM, said:

Murillio died because he was a good man who would stand up for injustices and try to improve the world, but also far past his prime and not the duellist or adulterer he once was. This is first shown in MoI when he speaks at length with Coll about how his position in Darujhistan is being replaced by new up-and-coming fencers/seducers, but he's still committed to doing the right thing when he has the choice (hence how they help the Mhybe). TtH reminds us of this with his getting stabbed by an angry boyfriend early on. For the rest of TtH he tries to find himself a new place in the world beyond his old life as a fop, and tries to no longer be an overzealous honor-bound noble-type, thus him working at Stonny's despite that she overcharges and barely teaches, and beyond that he tries not to be a noble knight to the clearly-distraught Stonny. Murillo can't escape himself, though, and eventually has to try and do the right thing, which means not ignoring Stonny and confronting Gorlas. Murillio's too old to beat Gorlas and he knows it, but he still feels compelled to do what he believes is right. And he dies for it.

Doesn't seem pointless to me, it's just a sad ending to one man's attempts to make the world a better place. He did plenty of good throughout his life, but he couldn't give it up and eventually he was outmatched.

Again fair enough. I'll bow to your expertise

[Abyss]

Quote

6. Shouldn't there be more Hounds of Light remaining, where did they go? Barathol wounded one, Karsa and the Seguleh 2nd killed three, Tulas Shorn killed/took three, and the Bear following Samar dev took one. That leaves two unscathed and one hurt by Barathol. All we have to go on for Hounds of Light is what's in the book. Where they went is a mystery.

Just a guess, but i doubt the Hounds of Light Tulas Shorn grabbed are dead. He dropped them, but didn't crush them or go back to finish the job. His soft spot for animals argues against those three being killed.

This makes particular sense because when you consider that there were nine Hounds of Light to start - Karsa, Seg2 and Pedantic War bear took out four, which leaves five... which happens to be the same number of Hounds of Shadow, AND Deragoth left.

- Abyss, ...just realized that...

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

 Abyss, on 29 October 2009 - 07:07 PM, said:

Quote

6. Shouldn't there be more Hounds of Light remaining, where did they go? Barathol wounded one, Karsa and the Seguleh 2nd killed three, Tulas Shorn killed/took three, and the Bear following Samar dev took one. That leaves two unscathed and one hurt by Barathol. All we have to go on for Hounds of Light is what's in the book. Where they went is a mystery.

Just a guess, but i doubt the Hounds of Light Tulas Shorn grabbed are dead. He dropped them, but didn't crush them or go back to finish the job. His soft spot for animals argues against those three being killed.

This makes particular sense because when you consider that there were nine Hounds of Light to start - Karsa, Seg2 and Pedantic War bear took out four, which leaves five... which happens to be the same number of Hounds of Shadow, AND Deragoth left.

- Abyss, ...just realized that...

There were 10 HoL.

[Ben Adephon Delat]

Since this is a Q&A thread I might as well ask a question here:
~Is Draconus a Tiste Andii and if not did he at some point take the form of a TA?
~Is the woman Gruntle refers to as a barbed priestess Destriant/Shield Anvil to Treach since Heboric is dead or otherwise engaged?
~Was the stone upon which Dragnipur rested for a bit weeping because Rake's sword is heavy or because of it's power? If the former is it merely a very heavuy sword or are all the souls in it making it heavier?
~ Is Apsalara back fully or is she some disembodied ghost thing

This post has been edited by Ben Adephon Delat: 01 November 2009 - 06:19 PM

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

 Ben Adephon Delat, on 01 November 2009 - 06:16 PM, said:

Since this is a Q&A thread I might as well ask a question here:
~Is Draconus a Tiste Andii and if not did he at some point take the form of a TA?
~Is the woman Gruntle refers to as a barbed priestess Destriant/Shield Anvil to Treach since Heboric is dead or otherwise engaged?
~Was the stone upon which Dragnipur rested for a bit weeping because Rake's sword is heavy or because of it's power? If the former is it merely a very heavuy sword or are all the souls in it making it heavier?
~ Is Apsalara back fully or is she some disembodied ghost thing

I'll take a shot at some of these:

1. He's not a Tiste Andii, he's an elder god. BUT he apparently has some connection with darkness that we haven't been given the whole story on yet. And certainly he may have taken on the form of a TA at some point just like Rake played a human for awhile. Are you referring to a specific time?

2. Not sure about this, someone probably remembers it.

3. I assumed it weeped because the souls and chains and the gate inside of it radiate power of a sort. It seems to bear heavily on Rake at times. It is NOT a super-heavy sword that actually carries the weight of the wagon and all the chained inside of it. I've seen some people suggest this. I seem to remember Apt getting very upset over it and writing a long post explaining why this is not the case.

4. Like all the others souls that were still alive when Brood unmakes Dragnipur I assume she will be released back into the world completely healthy, though probably with some hand issues from breaking her chains. Although I kind of think it might be funny and very Erikson-like if she is stuck in that realm because she is no longer attached to the wagon and gate that were weighing down the realm.

[Ben Adephon Delat]

Sorry I've read DoD so the first question would really be more appropriate on that forum. I don't recall Rake playing a human is that from GOTM because it's been a while since I read it though I'm getting ready for a reread soon as I finish ICE's books

This post has been edited by Ben Adephon Delat: 01 November 2009 - 10:21 PM

[Sinisdar Toste]

we haven't seen rake play a human in the series so far, envy talks about it in MoI i think

[Ben Adephon Delat]

Am I correct in my assumption that the Imass used the Beast Hold for their magic and then later on used Tellan and this change was brought by something Apsalara stole or am I wrong entirely

[D'rek]

 Ben Adephon Delat, on 01 November 2009 - 10:59 PM, said:

Am I correct in my assumption that the Imass used the Beast Hold for their magic and then later on used Tellan and this change was brought by something Apsalara stole or am I wrong entirely

If Paran is to be believed, Tellan is a warren born from the Imass' Ritual and is the magic-source for their existance as it ties to the ritual or some such. Of course the Beast Hold is very closely associated with earthly spirit magics, which are practiced far and wide by plenty of folk despite the unoccupiedness of the Beast Thrones, so the Bonecasters might not really have lost their earthly magic, but they (and the magic properties of regular T'lan Imass) have *gained* the Tellan warren as a source.

Apsalara comes along in that she supposedly stole fire and brought it to the world of Imass. Additionally, Olar Ethil is said to have pleaded with Silanah to do the same. We're definitively lacking in clear evidence of what this actually means in relation to the Tellan warren though.

[Ben Adephon Delat]

I'm just wandering if it's fire as in actual fire or fire as in Tellan both make sense if you ask me. Anyway thanks for answering my questions now all I need is a reasonable estimation as to who the barbed lady Gruntle refers to is

[Hetan]

 Ben Adephon Delat, on 01 November 2009 - 10:59 PM, said:

Am I correct in my assumption that the Imass used the Beast Hold for their magic and then later on used Tellan and this change was brought by something Apsalara stole or am I wrong entirely

The Imass originally worshipped beasts (not the Beast Hold) - which is quite obvious really when you think about the Bonecasters and their ability to shape-shift - earth and blood-bound I believe was the original quote - they called their warren Tellan but this became corrupted by the ritual of Tellan and is supposedly now aspected of dust.

No idea what bearing Apsalar'a had in this and can't remember reading if she escaped the ritual of Tellann as did Kilava, or will she appear as undead when she's back on the mortal plane - anyone else know?

Regarding the barbed lady (I thought it was a black-spotted leopard?) that Gruntle meets - hmm - I remember that part and thought it was possibly Kilava, simply because I don't think we have seen another female bonecaster who is of that genre.

edit : I should have also said that the warren of Tellan which existed prior to the ritual, was aspected of fire.

[Salt-Man Z]

Regarding Draconus' resemblance to a Tiste Andii: In RotCG he seems to be the representative of Dark that gets pitted against Liossercal and Light. (He's referred to by Denuth as "Consort of Night and Suzerain of Darkness".) The opinion on the forum seems to be that Draconus is the guy who appears during the unveiling of Kurald Galain.

If he's not a Tiste Andii, he's at least closely connected with them.

[Sinisdar Toste]

 Salt-Man Z, on 02 November 2009 - 11:09 PM, said:

Regarding Draconus' resemblance to a Tiste Andii: In RotCG he seems to be the representative of Dark that gets pitted against Liossercal and Light. (He's referred to by Denuth as "Consort of Night and Suzerain of Darkness".) The opinion on the forum seems to be that Draconus is the guy who appears during the unveiling of Kurald Galain.

If he's not a Tiste Andii, he's at least closely connected with them.

most definitely, see:

Spoiler

silchas ruin's tale to ryadd eleis - chapter 13 of Dust of Dreams