[Lister of Smeg]

I'm rereading DoD at the moment and something has been bugging me about Olar Ethil for some time. She appears to have just come out of nowhere after being absent for the last five books. She turns up now though, just when people are planning to release the Otataral Dragon. A lot has been said in DoD about the need for balance, how one force needs its opposing force to survive. Time for some quote-fu.

Page 249, Sag'Churok to Kalyth:

Quote

"There is no single god. There can never be a single god. For there to be one face, there must be another ... If all is ordered, untouched by chaos, then the universe that was, is and will ever be, is without meaning. Without value. The god would quickly comprehend, then, that its own existence is also without meaning, and so it would cease. It would succumb to the logic of despair.

In its knowledge, the god would understand the necessity for that which lies outside itself, beyond its direct control. In that tension meaning will be found."

Then, still with Sag'Churok on Page 250,

Quote

"The Slayer, the Otataral Dragon, has been bound. But it will be freed. They will free it."

You're probably wondering where I'm going with this now. But if the OD is the negation of magic, the other force, then its opposite will, IMO, be Tiam. The mother of the dragons, creatures that are essential for magic. Sag'Churok thinks that both forces have to exist to give the other meaning. So, when the OD was bound, did that mean Tiam no longer had reason to carry on? She lost her opposing force. Maybe she decided to join in the Ritual of Tellann and became Olar Ethil. Now that she sense the OD is going to be released, she reenters the game, possibly looking for a way to resurrect herself so the battle can start again?

In DG (I think), she is described as the undead twin to Tiam (can't find that quote, sadly, but I'm sure I didn't make it up). Maybe that's because she is actually the undead Tiam. Back to DoD, Page 410, Olar is talking to Torrent.

Quote

"Did you know, these lips once touched those of the Son of Darkness? In our days of youth, in a world far from this one - far, yes, but little different in the end."

We know that Rake got jiggy with Tiam (the skanky ho, as a certain person might describe her) as well as drinking her blood ...

Midnight Tides now, Feather Witch's second casting of the Tiles, Page 292 of mmpb.

Quote

"The Queen lies dead and may never again rise."

So what do we know about Tiam? She dies when she gives birth and is reborn. But then, in a so far unknown way, she died properly and hasn't been reborn. Is it possible this is because she became an undead instead? SE mentioned one more big resurrection a few years back, didn't he? Maybe it's Olar Ethil becoming Tiam again.

Back to DoD, pages 353-354.

Quote

Knuckles managed a twisted smile, and then shrugged. "If there is one presence I would find unwelcome above all others, Errastas, it is Olar Ethil."

"She is dead -"

"And supremely indifferent to that condition - she embraced the Ritual of Tellann without hesitation, the opportunistic bitch -"

"And so bound herself to the fate of the T'lan Imass," said the Errant

...

"Not as bound as you might hope for," said Sechul Lath.

So maybe Olar Ethil can un-undead herself when she wants. And now that the OD, her opposition, is being freed, she might decide that this is the time.

For a final little tidbit, back to Sag'Churok on page 250.

Quote

"If life is your god, the otataral is the other god, and that god is death.

If Tiam is opposite to death, that gels with Olar's assertion that she is trying to save the lives of everyone, as she claims to Torrent later.

What do you think? Feel free to point out why Olar Ethil=Tiam is impossible. I'm sure I must have missed something.

[champ]

whilst reading DoD, for some reason which I cant remember now, i thought OE was more connected with Burn than anyone else... but why i thought this i cannot remember

[MTS]

Ok, I really like this theory. The whole 'never again rise' thing would be very SE, and the life-death dichotomy is interesting. I do have some problems though. There is a passage somewhere (I don't know if it's in DoD or not) that talks about there being no life without magic, that magic makes life possible. That is why the OD was so dangerous. So that's where I think the death reference comes in. Also I think it is explicitly stated that Olar Ethil is both the daughter and lover of Tiam, and they are spoken of as quite separate entities. Plus, she's an Elder God, she can do tons of stuff.

champooon, she tells us she is Burn, so that's where you're getting that from.

This post has been edited by Mappo's Travelling Sack: 26 October 2009 - 12:57 PM

[Toc]

That is a very interesting theory indeed. But when Cotillion is having a conversation with Ampelas, Kalse and Eloth in the Bonehunters he states that Olar Ethil is a Soletaken, and none of the Eleint gives any indication that that isn't true.

"'The Tiste Andii for Anomandaris,' Cotillion continued. 'Tiste Liosan for Osserc. The T'lan Imass for Olar Ethil. These connections and the loyalties born of them are obvious. Draconus is more of a mystery, of course, since he has been gone a long time-'

And about Silanah being the only pure blooded Eleint who works together with a Soletaken:

"'Seduced by Anomandaris's charms,' snapped Eloth. 'And Olar Ethil's endless pleadings...'
'To bring fire to the world of the Imass,' Cotillion said.


But, this doesn't really disprove your theory. Although it would be a bit strange if the mother of all dragons is a soletaken.

This post has been edited by Toc: 26 October 2009 - 01:30 PM

[MTS]

Oh, as to where she's been, she's been with the T'lan Imass, preparing to go to Assail, not lying dead in some orgy room in Moon's Spawn.

[masan's saddle]

Interesting post Smeg !

The bit in DG you refer to irrc, is that bit when the massive undead soletaken dragon(which I believe is Olar Ethil) is flapping through the warren that stormy and Ges have a bath in ? My memory isn't great but I think the comparison ( "undead twin")to Tiam is based purely on size as she's a big girl.

I may be completley wrong and based on past performances I probably am.

[Raraku]

The quote about being the undead twin of Tiam is in MOI where Silverfox is talking to her and she answers saying that when she veers, she is the undead twin of Tiam

[Sinisdar Toste]

indeed, a very interesting theory. bumps the number of names that olar ethil can lay claim to, eres, burn, ethil and tiam and whatever else. she does seem to be known mostly as the mother earth, life-giving, progenitor goddess, with fits nicely with tiam and sorcery being essential to all life.

ps: its silchas ruin in DoD who talks about sorcery being essential to life, in one of his many sermons to ryadd

[Mael]

In DoD it stated that Olar Ethil was born from Tiam. I don't recall the exact quote but it stated that Olar Ethil was Tiams first child and was born via immaculate conception from Tiam's wounding. It then goes on to explain that the Eres was the first child of Olar Ethil.

[Sinisdar Toste]

but are they really different godesses? or just one goddess inhabiting a sequence of aspects, we know from k'rul that elder gods can adapt their aspect to changing times. why not tiam/olar ethil/eres/burn? just a thought, obviously i don't know any more than you do

[Hellian's Keg Lid]

She isn't Tiam, I know she says her origins somewhere, and do you really think if she's not shy about saying how her lips were on the Son of Darkness she's not going to mention how everyone slays her/shags her to spawn dragons in her long rant about her many faces and talents?

[Lister of Smeg]

I just got to the part where Sechul Lath calls her "Daughter of Tiam". I knew I should have finished my reread before starting this thread. Still, it was a nice theory while it lasted.

I'm still curious about her origins and her boasts, though.