[Jack]

Just half way through reading Dust of Dreams and I have to put the book down... just from disgust and incomprehension.

I know Steven Erikson has a realist penchant for senseless deaths (Trull, Whiskey Jack, etc) but I think having Tool kill himself to save less than a hundred of his enemies within the Barghast takes the cake, especially when he knows full well what will happen to Hetan and their kids when Maral Eb takes over as War Leader.

Quote

'If - if I am to refuse them. Your people, Hetan. If I am to lead them away from here, from this prophesied fate you are all so desperate to embrace, do you truly believe they will follow me?'

No. They will kill you. And our children. And for me, something far worse. In a low whisper she then asked, 'Shall we flee, then? In the night, unseen by anyone?'

He lowered his hands and, eyes on the storm, offered up a bleak smile that lanced her heart. 'I am to be the coward I so want to be? And I do, beloved, I so want to be a coward. For you, for our children. Gods below, for myself.

His whole motivation leading up to the scouting expedition was to avoid the destruction of the Barghast clans. He was willing to step down as War Leader if that was what was required (but Hetan clearly states above that this is NOT an option if he wants his family to survive.

So his only choice is to continue as War Leader and hope he can convince the clans to avoid this war by scaring his rivals within the loyal clans into changing their minds.

Now when he realises that Maral Eb is about to ambush the party, why doesn't he make a fight of it?

Was his claim to Bakal or Riggis that he could take on a thousand Barghast warriors just a few hours before an empty boast? No... we know that as the former First Sword he was freaking unstoppable... even now as a mortal Imass he still among the best swordsmen ever. Period.

So what are the options open to Tool?

1) Kill himself and thus saving Bakal and the others, but ensuring that Hetan, their daughters will be hobbled, gang-raped and murdered?

2) Lead Bakal and the others against overwhelming odds, but at least offers a small (however insignificant) chance that some of them survive to escape the ambush? If he dies, well the same fate awaits his family, but if he manages to escape to warn Hetan or rally the loyal Barghast - there's some hope of averting the atrocities that await them?

Now as an author, I can understand why you'd want Tool to die so as to set up some other part of the plot - but for Tool to give up knowing he's going to condemn his loved ones without a fight is just not believable. Tool couldn't have possibly known the size (or the outcome) of Maral Eb's ambush. And he's survived impossible odds before. (40-1? pfffttt... cake walk).

At least if he was to die, let him go down fighting. Let him take as many of the enemy with him to the grave. Let him have a proper honour guard of harvested souls before finding his rest. Let Onos Toolan, First Sword of the First Empire, rage against the dying of the light before begging for Hetan's forgiveness as he dies.

At least then he will deserve it.

[Abyss]

Keep reading. It gets better. worse. harder to take. awesome. painful. stunning. frustrating.... just keep reading.


- Abyss, ...understood the development but still had a hard time with it on principle...

[Daser]

It didnt make sense to me either.

I think the casualties in the earlier books worked much better.

Whiskeyjack: His death was huge upset for me, but it fit very well with Whiskeyjack`s character, he would take that fight every time. A god had a finger in it and it was to a badass opponent he died. The aftermath was awasome also.

Itkovian: Amazingly different way to die, but very much in character for a Shield Anvil to do something like this. What follows after was again amazing.

Trull: A new way to die....Randomly, on a whim, just because a god could do it. Character isnt an issue here, unless it is the Errants character we are looking at. We dont have the usual aftermath or effect on others either. First weaker death of a major character in my eyes, but still accepteble if you see it from the push/pull angle of a gods influence.

Rake: Cant say SE dont have fantastic ways for his characters to die, but i just dont think this worked well. Motivation and plans was just to wierd. I think it was for the fans that wanted Dassem and Rake to fight. Aftermath was amazing tho.

Tool: Ahh again a new way...suicide. This just dont work for me at all, and i dont think it is in character. For the first time what follows isnt amazing at all. Hetan another character people liked gets butchered without seing it coming or taking anyone with her. Totally out of character to me again.


By now i know that more will die, but i seriously hope that the next( Fiddler, Quick Ben, Paran or others ) do it in a manner more like the first ones where it was fitting their character and you saw its effects on those left behind.

For me the best/saddest moment is still Dujek`s "I have lost a friend" after Whiskeyjacks death.

[Jack]

 Daser, on 22 October 2009 - 11:22 PM, said:

Trull: A new way to die....Randomly, on a whim, just because a god could do it. Character isnt an issue here, unless it is the Errants character we are looking at. We dont have the usual aftermath or effect on others either. First weaker death of a major character in my eyes, but still accepteble if you see it from the push/pull angle of a gods influence.

You don't mean Brys Bennedict, do you Daser? Random poisoning of unintended victim? That seemed plausible, "accidents" like that can happen and has no relevance to their martial prowess. Trull's death through inattention due to grief... stretches believability (this guy took on Icarium and held his own? he's not going to notice someone creeping up behind him to backstab?) but again fits the whole senseless but tragic death theme.

Abyss: Of course I'll keep reading. I was expecting it to get worse before it gets even more worse before it gets better.

Erikson's one of my favourite authors but sometimes I think he just gets it wrong.

[Sinisdar Toste]

no way trull would have noticed being snuck up on. he returns after all this time to try one last time to save rhulad... and he's dead. for real dead. what else would he be paying attention to?

also, rake's death was the most meaningful and beautiful sacrifice in the books, imho.

though tools suicide was a bit of a bizarre thing, its like he was just too damn compassionate for anyones good. very weird. however his story after that is to WTFAWESOME for me to care too much

[Daser]

 Jack, on 23 October 2009 - 01:21 AM, said:

 Daser, on 22 October 2009 - 11:22 PM, said:

Trull: A new way to die....Randomly, on a whim, just because a god could do it. Character isnt an issue here, unless it is the Errants character we are looking at. We dont have the usual aftermath or effect on others either. First weaker death of a major character in my eyes, but still accepteble if you see it from the push/pull angle of a gods influence.

You don't mean Brys Bennedict, do you Daser? Random poisoning of unintended victim? That seemed plausible, "accidents" like that can happen and has no relevance to their martial prowess. Trull's death through inattention due to grief... stretches believability (this guy took on Icarium and held his own? he's not going to notice someone creeping up behind him to backstab?) but again fits the whole senseless but tragic death theme.

Abyss: Of course I'll keep reading. I was expecting it to get worse before it gets even more worse before it gets better.

Erikson's one of my favourite authors but sometimes I think he just gets it wrong.

My quote fu isnt strong and it has been awhile since i read Reaper`s Gale, but i am sure the Errant made a "push/pull" on Trull and that is why he didnt notice his killer.

[HoosierDaddy]

It's not obvious, but there is the "Owl" that he had first seen in the beginning of Midnight Tides that he misses fly past him.

Quote

Watching from an unseen place, the errant stepped back, pulled away as if he would hurl himself form a cliff.

He was what he was.

A tipper of balances.

And now, this day - may the Abyss devour him whole - a maker of widows.

So, yes. Twas the Errant and thus the Lets Hate the Errant Fanclub on the forum.

[Powder]

 HoosierDaddy, on 23 October 2009 - 02:40 AM, said:

It's not obvious, but there is the "Owl" that he had first seen in the beginning of Midnight Tides that he misses fly past him.

So, yes. Twas the Errant and thus the Lets Hate the Errant Fanclub on the forum.

sooo where do i sign up

[Stalker]

@Powder- talk to Gem Windcaster- she runs things.

On topic- I completely agree with Abyss. Tool's death may seem tragic, and it is, but it is one of the events where reading more will help understand why SE did it.

This post has been edited by Stalker: 23 October 2009 - 04:11 AM

[HoosierDaddy]

I'd just say Tool's worst decision was joining the Ritual in the first place. Bar that and no more tragedy, yes?

T'lan Imass = Drama Kings & Queens.

[Abyss]

 HoosierDaddy, on 23 October 2009 - 04:42 AM, said:

I'd just say Tool's worst decision was joining the Ritual in the first place. Bar that and no more tragedy, yes?...

Well yes, with a few hundred millenia of hindsight.

Keep in mind at the time they were facing extinction, and in theory the ritual could be reversed once they were done wiping out the Jaghut. Of course it didn't work out that way, but that was the plan.

Obviously since a pile of Imass skipped the ritual and lived, went off, created new tribes, got their funk on with other races thus creating yet other races and were around a few thousand years later for the Second Ritual, extinction may have not been quite as likely, tho one could argue that if the six or so tribes didn't go undead and start killing Jaghut in earnest, the rest of them wouldn't have survived.

Tool at the time had just seen his sister Kilava kill his entire clan and take a good shot at him. He had nothing left to not join the Ritual for.

- Abyss, calls THAT sibling rivalry.

[Jack]

 Stalker, on 23 October 2009 - 04:11 AM, said:

@Powder- talk to Gem Windcaster- she runs things.

On topic- I completely agree with Abyss. Tool's death may seem tragic, and it is, but it is one of the events where reading more will help understand why SE did it.

I don't mind Tool dying, its the manner in which he dies that is annoying.


Thanks HoosierDaddy for clearing up Trulls death. Haven't read Reapers Gale for a while.

[HoosierDaddy]

If MoI made it obvious, DoD made it ludicrous level obvious, that the Ritual was a massive mistake. Quite frankly, the T'lan Imass were the bad guys and deserve everything they get. My sympathy is gone.

You would think someone who had lived for a couple hundred thousand undead years might have developed a modicum of sense. Tool does not. He is, and the Imass all are, utterly and completely dominated by their passions, whether those passions have any sensibility behind them at all does not matter. It only matters that something upset them, thus it has to die.

Quite frankly, I don't see them as actually staring extinction in the face. The Omtose Phellack glaciers that marred the face of the world were a reaction to the Imass. Might they have eventually disappeared from the face of the earth? Yes. But that's evolution isn't it? Their blood would have lived on in the Fent, the Barghast, and other peoples. Their nonsense about being hunted by humans to extinction is the exact same damn thing they did to the Ay in the first place, so they have no room to talk.

This post has been edited by HoosierDaddy: 23 October 2009 - 07:31 PM

[K'Chain Bull'shite]

I struggle with this too...Tool has hundreds of thousands of years of experience - I think it's fair to say that he's seen it all - further, he has to have been leading the White Face Barghast for several years before the events in question so he knows what he's dealing with. Regarding the notion that SE needed him to die in order to advance the narrative in a particular way - fair enough, just make it believable - a flash coup in the middle of the night would have been believable. This...just no. It seems he wanted to deconstruct the myth of the noble savage and expose the inherent fatalism in warrior societies but couldn't be bothered to set it up properly. SE said once that he would have been a poet if he could have made a living at it and this is an artifact of that attitude I think - the guy is a genius IMO, but he doesn't have enough respect for the material that he created - it's deeply strange.

That being said, I will buy everything he produces

[amphibian]

 Bre, on 23 October 2009 - 04:26 PM, said:

I struggle with this too...Tool has hundreds of thousands of years of experience - I think it's fair to say that he's seen it all - further, he has to have been leading the White Face Barghast for several years before the events in question so he knows what he's dealing with. Regarding the notion that SE needed him to die in order to advance the narrative in a particular way - fair enough, just make it believable - a flash coup in the middle of the night would have been believable. This...just no. It seems he wanted to deconstruct the myth of the noble savage and expose the inherent fatalism in warrior societies but couldn't be bothered to set it up properly. SE said once that he would have been a poet if he could have made a living at it and this is an artifact of that attitude I think - the guy is a genius IMO, but he doesn't have enough respect for the material that he created - it's deeply strange.

Keep in mind that's hundreds of millennia basically linked to a hive mind driven on by Olar Ethil and the overriding imperative to kill Jaghut and Soletaken....

He didn't want to lead the Barghast. Humbrell Taur was supposed to do that and perhaps Cafal or the son who died in the duel against Trotts were supposed to succeed Humbrell. However, things didn't work out that way. I think Erikson wanted to show us a group, led by someone who didn't have a purpose, as a contrast to the Bonehunters and the Snake.

[Soulessdreamer]

Tool had been driven insane by his return to life, memories and emotions and was consumed by his own empaty as I see it.

Yes it was stupid but in character for what tool had become in that moment.

And as to hetan that idiotic bitch got what she deserved. She felt tools death buzz and knew what that meant and what would happen but just sat there for what, two three days instead of fleeing not bothering to save her kids let alone her self. And look at how many others died trying to save the stupid bitch.

Such people disgust me.

TTFN

[Ain't_It_Just_]

I reckon he just panicked. He became obsessed with dying-and with it, escape from the burdens and responsibilities. Maybe he didn't want to fight Maral Eb and his cronies because he wanted Stahl and that other dude (forget his name) to survive. Who knows-maybe he had a huge foreboding feeling of what was coming to the White Face, knew he couldn't stop it and just tried to get away. He said he wanted to be a coward.

[Sinisdar Toste]

but olar ethil didn't let him get away with it, and so on his return he was filled rage, and turned to murder once more, what he didn't want to do in life

[Ain't_It_Just_]

Hmm....is that why he killed those innocent Barghast at the end? There didn't seem to be a reason.

[Treefork]

Ok I didn't see mentioned though that if Tool had not done what he did then everyone including himself would have died. So really he saved their lives knowing he was going to be killed anyway, but with his death he could purchase their lives.