[MTS]

Could Ublala's quest be to break the CG's chains? We know that's Tavore's aim, but could it be Ublala's too? Now, bear with me. Ublala's mission is to save the world, right? Now, Draconus, Setch, Olar Ethil, Kilmandaros, Errastas (that's a much cooler name than the Errant, by the way) have all professed a desire to destroy the world. They want to unleash the OD, and, presumably, siphon Kaminsod's power, which again presumably would not be affected by the OD's involvement, said involvement destroying sorcery and nullifying all the opposition's power. Kaminsod's alienness would then seem to be a prime factor in his value, and why they never killed or imprisoned him. He's very powerful, and would presumably be able to defy the Elder Gods should he be free.

Now, Ublala said a rather thought-provoking thing in his encounter with Draconus, pg. 694 of the hardback:

Quote

'...Now, collect up Rilk there and permit me to refasten your straps.'
'Oh, thank you. I don't like knots.'
'No one does, I should think.'
'But not as bad as chains, though.'
The stranger's hands hesitated on the fittings, and then resumed.
'True enough, friend.

It all seems rather innocuous, but we all know, everything has a purpose. Two other things piqued my interest earlier on, when Ublala receives Rilk and Dra Alkelient. Pg. 361 of the hardback:

Quote

'The armour's name is Dra Alkelient - basically Thelemon for "I killed the dragon Dralk". He used that mace to do it, and it's name is Rilk, which is Thelomen for "Crush". Or "Smash" or something similar.'

Quote

The head was vaguely shaped to form four shattered bulbs - the ore was marled mercurial and deep blue.
'Skyfall,' said Harlest, 'that metal. Harder than iron.'

Now, I don't know about you, but that got me a little suspicious. A Thelomen who doesn't like chains, is headed towards Kolanse, where Kaminsod is, holds a mace named "Crush", parts of it which are made from ore falling from the sky. We know from Withal that the only way to break a weapon is to hit it with something stronger a la Dragnipur and Brood's hammer, or take it back to the place it was forged. Now, this is the tenuous part of the theory, but what else fell from the sky? It might very well be the mace's odd metal is the same metal as those chaining Kaminsod.

EDIT: There's also the connection between the Tartheno Toblakai card (I'm assuming that to be Ublala) and Chain (Unaligned, mind you) after the Deck reading, when Fiddler is down in the basement or wherever. He says they "closed this dread night." Tenuous, I know, as then he talks about the power of the card spreading out to wrap around the Bonehunters, but still. Thought: could Kaminsod be manipulating the BH to come to his aid?

Could be, though, he is to kill the OD. Bearer of dragon armour, resistant to magic presumably, wielder of a dragon-killing mace, with another dragon threatening to destroy the world...

Ublala Pung, Herald of Life, saviour of the world, thwarter of doomsday plans and Elder Gods?

This post has been edited by Mappo's Travelling Sack: 27 August 2009 - 11:00 AM

[Egwene]

I must admit, the thought that this was a reference to the chains of tCG occurred to me as well when I read that dialogue but hadn't noticed the connection with the armour. Now that you mention it, it is pretty potent.

But Ublala is so way not one of my favourite characters that the thought of seeing a lot more of him I find quite hard to stomach

[Urizen]

Mappo's Travelling Sack, on Aug 23 2009, 05:02 PM, said:

Now, Ublala said a rather thought-provoking thing in his encounter with Draconus, pg. 694 of the hardback:

Quote

'...Now, collect up Rilk there and permit me to refasten your straps.'
'Oh, thank you. I don't like knots.'
'No one does, I should think.'
'But not as bad as chains, though.'
The stranger's hands hesitated on the fittings, and then resumed.
'True enough, friend.

Perhaps, although I thought the qoute was there more to show Draconus dislike/fear/aversion wwhatever to chains rather than Ublala.

[Grief]

Perhaps, but releasing the Otataral Dragon doesn't necessarily destroy the world. That depends how quickly it's counterpart arrives. After all, to be chained it must have been there at some point, and the world survives.
If it is killed that also necessitates the death of it's counterpart. Unless it's counterpart is already dead which would necessitate it's chaining in the first place.
So, who could be the counterpart? I'd guess Tiam-who seems to embody life. Though Tiam is a dragon and they're chaotic/destructive. So where is Tiam? Well, gone. Rake killed her-my pet theory being because her blood is spread out, she can't take form. Of course, that means the blood is in the eleint and soletaken. Which in turn means the elder, or at least some of them.

[MTS]

Well of course, releasing the OD doesn't necessarily destroy the world. The Elder Gods could use that primal force of entropy, however, along with Kaminsod's power harnessed in Ahkrast Korvalain to destroy the world, by either destroying the counterpart or neutralising it. They would then remake the world in their favoured image.

I'm not convinced Tiam is dead. It's said Olar Ethil did not outlive her mother - Tiam. Olar's been dead for a long time, granted, so it doesn't say much, but I think Tiam has been crucified by the Nah'Ruk. I think their purpose is being manipulated by the Elders, to destroy the sources of sorcery. They've taken out Sorrit, probably others, and that dragon in the prologue is bleeding something fierce. Tiam's blood is a fairly powerful wellspring of sorcery. I think this manipulation is achieved by exploiting the emnity of the Nah'Ruk against the Che'Malle. The latter worship the dragons, after all, so it's like killing their gods.

By the way, where was Korvalain mentioned before DoD? It's been a Mafia Alt for a long time...

This post has been edited by Mappo's Travelling Sack: 23 August 2009 - 04:52 PM

[drinksinbars]

type of demon or something

[MTS]

That would be Korvalah, I think.

[Grief]

Ahrkast Korvalain-the warren of the Forkrul Assail. It's mentioned I think by the people discussing the ritual in Kolanse earlier in the book-either the elders or the ones at the reading?

[Epiph]

Mappo's Travelling Sack, on Aug 23 2009, 11:51 AM, said:

I'm not convinced Tiam is dead. It's said Olar Ethil did not outlive her mother - Tiam. Olar's been dead for a long time, granted, so it doesn't say much, but I think Tiam has been crucified by the Nah'Ruk. I think their purpose is being manipulated by the Elders, to destroy the sources of sorcery. They've taken out Sorrit, probably others, and that dragon in the prologue is bleeding something fierce. Tiam's blood is a fairly powerful wellspring of sorcery. I think this manipulation is achieved by exploiting the emnity of the Nah'Ruk against the Che'Malle. The latter worship the dragons, after all, so it's like killing their gods.

Specifically Sechul Lath and Killy? It seemed like their gambit didn't extend past the blood the Forkrul Assail are spilling to give them power, but it's possible. Icarium's souls say that they killed a dragon (presumably the one in the prologue--Mappo thought Sorrit was killed by Edur, not Nah'ruk) to make that gate the sky keeps come through, so it seems like there would need to be something in annihilating the Che'malle for the Elders...unless they just nudged the Nah'ruk to kill that specific dragon. AAAH, so like the Bolkando Queen's (what's her name again?) story about her uncle, so many "if this, then that"s.

[MTS]

Grief, on Aug 24 2009, 06:12 AM, said:

Ahrkast Korvalain-the warren of the Forkrul Assail. It's mentioned I think by the people discussing the ritual in Kolanse earlier in the book-either the elders or the ones at the reading?

Yeah, I know it's mentioned in DoD, but "Korvalain" has been a Mafia Alt for long before this came out, so I was wondering if it was mentioned in another book.

Epiph, I forgot about that story. I'll have to re-read that bit. It would be them specifically, yes. They have their hands in most things, and are the only ones other than Mael who have able to influence the world as a whole, with the possible exception of Ardata. As to Sorrit, the only thing that points to Edur is the Blackwood. There's no evidence for their case other than that, and they've been a lowly tribal society for some time. Nah'Ruk have been crucifying dragons, and they were hanging around, so I think it was more likely to be them.

[Epiph]

Mappo's Travelling Sack, on Aug 23 2009, 10:37 PM, said:

Nah'Ruk have been crucifying dragons, and they were hanging around, so I think it was more likely to be them.

Which begs the question, how'd a bunch of until recently frozen Nah'ruk get a Blackwood spear? And why would they use it?

This post has been edited by Epiph: 24 August 2009 - 03:47 AM

[MTS]

Considering their numbers, they've been around for quite a while I would think, just not on Wu. Like Apt said, "it's not like Blackwood groves are closely guarded by crack teams of Edur gardeners". I don't think they'd have trouble getting their hands on some. If we are correct, and Setch and Killy are helping them, they could well have provided it as well.

[Grief]

Mappo's Travelling Sack, on Aug 24 2009, 04:37 AM, said:

Grief, on Aug 24 2009, 06:12 AM, said:

Ahrkast Korvalain-the warren of the Forkrul Assail. It's mentioned I think by the people discussing the ritual in Kolanse earlier in the book-either the elders or the ones at the reading?

Yeah, I know it's mentioned in DoD, but "Korvalain" has been a Mafia Alt for long before this came out, so I was wondering if it was mentioned in another book.

Epiph, I forgot about that story. I'll have to re-read that bit. It would be them specifically, yes. They have their hands in most things, and are the only ones other than Mael who have able to influence the world as a whole, with the possible exception of Ardata. As to Sorrit, the only thing that points to Edur is the Blackwood. There's no evidence for their case other than that, and they've been a lowly tribal society for some time. Nah'Ruk have been crucifying dragons, and they were hanging around, so I think it was more likely to be them.

The alt is ancient same as Kalse and Ampelas. Erikson has had the names planned for quite some time, and I believe the names were given to us by some of the advnaced readers. Some of the other alts I believe were the same-we had the alts before we knew the meaning-Gamelon iirc was one like that, as was kaschan I think.

And I don't think we've met a kessobahn yet.

[MTS]

Yes we have, it's the name of a pure-blood Eleint. We found that out in MT. Anyway, back on topic!

[Sinisdar Toste]

anybody think that kaminsod could be soletaken eleint? and maybe even the balance to the OD? we've got different groups of people trying to free both of them at the same time, and like that line tossed in about, 'as with mother dark, so to with father light' couldn't korabas and kaminsod have to return at the same time as well?

[Bear]

Quote

'...Now, collect up Rilk there and permit me to refasten your straps.'
'Oh, thank you. I don't like knots.'
'No one does, I should think.'
'But not as bad as chains, though.'
The stranger's hands hesitated on the fittings, and then resumed.
'True enough, friend.

I assumed this was Drac's reference to spending the last 200,000 years with a chain around his neck pulling a damn wagon away from a sea of Choas.

if I was Draconus, I wouldn't like chains either!

[ISTN4249]

Draconus might be of the mind to assist in releasing the Chained God. Maybe all that time in chains has humbled him a bit

[MTS]

Humbled, perhaps, but I don't think humility has anything to do with a desire to free the CG. Nor would I think his time in chains dispose him to free Kaminsod of his plight. Selflessness is definitely not one of the characteristics we would ascribe to Draconus knowing what we know about his character. "As deadly as Rake ever was, but far more cruel."

Besides, when Ublala says he's on a quest to save the world, Draconus says something along the lines of "hmm, here I was thinking of ending it." Plus Ublala is set on his quest by Old Hunch, and Draconus rips him to pieces. I think Draconus is going to try and corrupt Ublala's purpose, whatever it is. And I don't think keeping Kaminsod in chains constitutes "ending the world." Other things will contribute to that.

This post has been edited by Mappo's Travelling Sack: 27 August 2009 - 05:57 AM

[Urizen]

Mappo's Travelling Sack, on Aug 27 2009, 06:55 AM, said:

Humbled, perhaps, but I don't think humility has anything to do with a desire to free the CG. Nor would I think his time in chains dispose him to free Kaminsod of his plight. Selflessness is definitely not one of the characteristics we would ascribe to Draconus knowing what we know about his character. "As deadly as Rake ever was, but far more cruel."

Besides, when Ublala says he's on a quest to save the world, Draconus says something along the lines of "hmm, here I was thinking of ending it." Plus Ublala is set on his quest by Old Hunch, and Draconus rips him to pieces. I think Draconus is going to try and corrupt Ublala's purpose, whatever it is. And I don't think keeping Kaminsod in chains constitutes "ending the world." Other things will contribute to that.

Didn't old Hunch simply get destroyed by accident when Draconus re-entered the world?

[MTS]

Unless Old Hunch was chilling around that battle between the Barghast and Akrynnai where everything froze, then no.