Malazan Empire: Atheist couple denied custody of their adopted child - Malazan Empire

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Atheist couple denied custody of their adopted child This seems just plain wrong.

#1 User is offline   Aptorian 

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Posted 23 August 2009 - 11:53 AM

http://proofform.com/76/20090823238/World/...be-parents.html

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The Law: Can Atheists Be Parents?After six years of childless marriage, John and Cynthia Burke of Newark decided to adopt a baby boy through a state agency. Since the Burkes were young, scandal-free and solvent, they had no trouble with the New Jersey Bureau of Children's Services—until investigators came to the line on the application that asked for the couple's religious affiliation.

John Burke, an atheist, and his wife, a pantheist, had left the line blank. As a result, the bureau denied the Burkes' application. After the couple began court action, however, the bureau changed its regulations, and the couple was able to adopt a baby boy from the Children's Aid and Adoption Society in East Orange.

Last year the Burkes presented their adopted son, David, now 31, with a baby sister, Eleanor Katherine, now 17 months, whom they acquired from the same East Orange agency. Since the agency endorsed the adoption, the required final approval by a judge was expected to be pro forma. Instead, Superior Court Judge William Camarata raised the religious issue.

Inestimable Privilege. In an extraordinary decision, Judge Camarata denied the Burkes' right to the child because of their lack of belief in a Supreme Being. Despite the Burkes' "high moral and ethical standards," he said, the New Jersey state constitution declares that "no person shall be deprived of the inestimable privilege of worshiping Almighty God in a manner agreeable to the dictates of his own conscience." Despite Eleanor Katherine's tender years, he continued, "the child should have the freedom to worship as she sees fit, and not be influenced by prospective parents who do not believe in a Supreme Being."

The Burkes are now living in Carterville, Ill., near Southern Illinois University, where John Burke has worked for the past year as a speech pathologist. Nevertheless, Judge Camarata ordered the parents to send David's sister back to the New Jersey adoption agency. Two weeks ago, aided by the American Civil Liberties Union, the Burkes appealed directly to the New Jersey Supreme Court, which agreed to hear the case. If they fail in their appeal, Eleanor Katherine may have to leave the only family she has ever known and await adoption by another couple whose religious convictions satisfy the State of New Jersey.


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"no person shall be deprived of the inestimable privilege of worshiping Almighty God in a manner agreeable to the dictates of his own conscience."

Well, what about the right to not worship god? Are they going to force baptize people as well?
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#2 User is offline   bubba 

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Posted 23 August 2009 - 11:57 AM

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line on the application that asked for the couple's religious affiliation


that line has no business being there. And that Judge should be disbarred.

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#3 User is offline   caladanbrood 

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Posted 23 August 2009 - 12:47 PM

Well, since all athiests are perfect, they would of course bring up the child with absolutely no bias, so why would it make any difference?

Also, this is dumb. Why does religion turn americans into morons?
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#4 User is offline   bubba 

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Posted 23 August 2009 - 01:08 PM

 caladanbrood, on Aug 23 2009, 08:47 AM, said:

Well, since all athiests are perfect, they would of course bring up the child with absolutely no bias, so why would it make any difference?

Also, this is dumb. Why does religion turn americans into morons?

Morons are morons, Nationality and religion are just the targets people aim for.

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#5 User is offline   MTS 

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Posted 23 August 2009 - 01:13 PM

You've got to be kidding me. Religion should play no right in determining your fitness to raise a child. A parent has the obligation of instilling a high moral and ethical standard in their children, not indoctrinating them into the faith which they themselves hold. Parents are supposed to allow their children to pursue their own spiritual path, not proselytise them. Faith is a personal thing. Sure, parents can influence their own child's spiritual beliefs, but that influence should only go so far. How is having religious parents influencing your ability to not believe in a Supreme Being any different? Besides, considering the predominance of Christianity pretty much the world over, I don't see how having atheist parents precludes you from having the freedom to worship God, or any other "Supreme Being". I agree, a child should have the right to whatever faith they decide to hold, but c'mon. I can name at least 6 churches within 5 minutes of my house. Having atheist parents would in no way stop me from waltzing down to the nearest church and seeing what this "Jesus" guy was all about. For any other religion though, that's a far different story. I would understand if it was Islam, Judaism, or even Scientology. But Christianity? In America? That is just ludicrous.

This post has been edited by Mappo's Travelling Sack: 23 August 2009 - 01:16 PM

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#6 User is offline   Aptorian 

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Posted 23 August 2009 - 01:16 PM

The funny thing is that it's kind of a step back. Here we were trying to get all the gay couples the right to have a child, and then... this.

I wonder what would have happened if the parent were hindu's, taoist or, god forbid, muslim.
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#7 User is offline   caladanbrood 

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Posted 23 August 2009 - 01:19 PM

 Bubba, on Aug 23 2009, 02:08 PM, said:

Morons are morons, Nationality and religion are just the targets people aim for.

No doubt. And yet somehow you never hear stories like this from other countries...
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#8 User is offline   MTS 

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Posted 23 August 2009 - 01:20 PM

Look, if this decision is actually legally justifiable, then by definition, atheist people cannot not be able to breed, because, in his opinion, any atheist parent is harming their ability to believe in God, which is a violation of the child's rights.

Brood, I think you're generalising a little bit. However, the high population of conservative Christians in America ensures these sorts of stories are more likely to happen.

This post has been edited by Mappo's Travelling Sack: 23 August 2009 - 01:22 PM

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#9 User is offline   Illuyankas 

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Posted 23 August 2009 - 01:33 PM

There's a bigger mix of secular and fundamentalist people in America, as well as more reporters than, well, anywhere.

Also, William Camarata shouldn't be working anywhere he gets more responsibility than a manager in McDonalds.

This post has been edited by Illuyankas: 23 August 2009 - 01:33 PM

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#10 User is offline   bubba 

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Posted 23 August 2009 - 01:34 PM

 caladanbrood, on Aug 23 2009, 09:19 AM, said:

 Bubba, on Aug 23 2009, 02:08 PM, said:

Morons are morons, Nationality and religion are just the targets people aim for.

No doubt. And yet somehow you never hear stories like this from other countries...

It's because it's what you want to hear.

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#11 User is offline   caladanbrood 

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Posted 23 August 2009 - 01:37 PM

I can say with extreme confidence that hearing these sort of stories pisses me off spectacularly. Of course I'm generalising, but I suppose it puts into perspective any perceived problems with the church entwined with constitution that we may have in the UK...
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#12 User is offline   Shinrei 

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Posted 23 August 2009 - 02:09 PM

I'm sure it's an archaic law that the judge for whatever reason decided to enforce. My prediction is that it will be ruled unconstitutional and the law will be striken.

And Brood, there's all kinds of idiocy all over the world. American idiocy just gets more international press.
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#13 User is offline   caladanbrood 

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Posted 23 August 2009 - 02:15 PM

I get the impression I may have been misinterpreted here, I'm not trolling Americans. I'm just saying that religion in the US seems to bring the idiots to the forefront.
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#14 User is offline   Shinrei 

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Posted 23 August 2009 - 02:31 PM

Oh, no worries. Lots of religious idjits in the US. And, it's good that this sort of idiocy is called out.
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#15 User is offline   stone monkey 

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Posted 23 August 2009 - 04:00 PM

Is the judge going to be running for office in the near future, by any chance? This strikes me as a decision that rather cynically plays to a certain, rather vocal, section of the political demographic that he might wish to court.

It doesn't help that Atheists are considered to be the least trusted group in US society (according to at least one poll) Presumably people think that they spend their time burning churches and roasting good Christian babies on the embers...

This post has been edited by stone monkey: 23 August 2009 - 04:08 PM

If an opinion contrary to your own makes you angry, that is a sign that you are subconsciously aware of having no good reason for thinking as you do. If some one maintains that two and two are five, or that Iceland is on the equator, you feel pity rather than anger, unless you know so little of arithmetic or geography that his opinion shakes your own contrary conviction. … So whenever you find yourself getting angry about a difference of opinion, be on your guard; you will probably find, on examination, that your belief is going beyond what the evidence warrants. Bertrand Russell

#16 User is offline   Illuyankas 

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Posted 23 August 2009 - 04:06 PM

 stone monkey, on Aug 23 2009, 05:00 PM, said:

It doesn't help that Atheists are considered to be the least trusted group in US society (according to at least one poll) Presumably people think that they spend their time burning churches and roasting good Christian babies on the embers...

Ridiculous. The beliefs of their parents don't affect the taste at all, why would we stick to just Christian babies?
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#17 User is offline   MTS 

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Posted 23 August 2009 - 04:07 PM

Would the judge care if they were roasting pagan babies? I think not.
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#18 User is offline   stone monkey 

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Posted 23 August 2009 - 04:10 PM

Because if you're a hard line, fire and brimstone fundie, it doesn't matter what happens to non-Christians' babies... I mean, they're going to Hell anyway...

This post has been edited by stone monkey: 23 August 2009 - 04:12 PM

If an opinion contrary to your own makes you angry, that is a sign that you are subconsciously aware of having no good reason for thinking as you do. If some one maintains that two and two are five, or that Iceland is on the equator, you feel pity rather than anger, unless you know so little of arithmetic or geography that his opinion shakes your own contrary conviction. … So whenever you find yourself getting angry about a difference of opinion, be on your guard; you will probably find, on examination, that your belief is going beyond what the evidence warrants. Bertrand Russell

#19 User is offline   Illuyankas 

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Posted 23 August 2009 - 04:22 PM

Of course that leads to the 'babies are too young to be able to decide whether or not to believe in God so either all babies go straight to hell or God gives them an out to stop people feeling bad' argument. Which is just silly.
Hello, soldiers, look at your mage, now back to me, now back at your mage, now back to me. Sadly, he isn’t me, but if he stopped being an unascended mortal and switched to Sole Spice, he could smell like he’s me. Look down, back up, where are you? You’re in a warren with the High Mage your cadre mage could smell like. What’s in your hand, back at me. I have it, it’s an acorn with two gates to that realm you love. Look again, the acorn is now otataral. Anything is possible when your mage smells like Sole Spice and not a Bole brother. I’m on a quorl.
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#20 User is offline   Terez 

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Posted 23 August 2009 - 11:14 PM

 stone monkey, on Aug 23 2009, 11:00 AM, said:

Is the judge going to be running for office in the near future, by any chance? This strikes me as a decision that rather cynically plays to a certain, rather vocal, section of the political demographic that he might wish to court.

This suspicion would make more sense if New Jersey wasn't a blue state.

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