[mot]

Okay, so I'm rereading NOK, getting ready for DOD and something has struck me about the Bridgeburners' involvement-namely who among the Bridgeburners would have approved of Ash's and Corinn's activities? According to the Dramatis Personae Ash is an ex-officer, but it appears he is still an active Bridgeburner and Corinn is apparently still a member of the Bridgeburner mage cadre, so their involvement implies that the Bridgeburners tried to intervene as Surly took the throne, representing the Old Guard (though techinically Whiskeyjack isn't in the HoC's Old Guard list). So does this event represent two Bridgeburners acting on their own, or doing so with the tacit approval of Bridgeburner leadership, just as Fiddler's and Kalam's actions in Deadhouse Gate had the tacit approval of Whiskeyjack. One last thing, it is clear that they, Ash and Corinn, knew what was coming and that Kellanved and Dancer were going to attempt something at the Deadhouse since they took over the Hanged Man which lies next door, so who told them? And why do they not remain neutral like Tayshrenn?

[Khellendros]

Ash is a renegade, as are the people under his command. This is actually confirmed in House of Chains, where Ash is one of the ghosts that Fiddler sees in Raraku, and Fid comments that he hadn't seen him since he turned renegade, and heard they found his body in Malaz City.

How Ash knew that Kellanved and Dancer would return is never explained, it's just one of those things.

They didn't remain neutral because they it appears that they really wanted Kellanved to reclaim the throne, i.e. they were very unhappy with Surly's regency.

[Skywalker]

OK, I've only read NoK once... and it does look like I need a reread.

But may I say Khellendros, that your observation just blew my mind. Kudos sir, on a series well digested

And now I will go on a war footing and reread the whole series + NoK + RotCG before DoD.

Um, well... maybe just RG?

[lobo the wolfman]

The way i saw it was, that Ash & co knowing that Surly may have a hand in Dassem's death, may also try to strike at the Emperor and Dancer. Also, it's been mentioned that many wanted WJ to take up the throne, maybe Ash thought that if any thing happened to Kellanved, then he would be in a postion to help help WJ take over by killing Surly. All this is his own planning, besides his group no one else was involved.

As for knowing that Kellenved was coming back, maybe it was the same way Surly and Tay did. Or a member of Dancer's shadow Cult told them and got them ready.

[Abyss]

Ash and co were Kellanved loyalists. It wasn't a secret that Surly wasn't going to return the throne, so that plus Dassem's 'death meant they were ready to act when Kel asked them to back his 'return'. Kel, of course, never intended to return to the throne, but it needed to be a good show and him and Dancer just showing up to commit suicide by Claw wouldn't have been as convincing.

Kel knew he could rely on them to be his cannon fodder when he went up against Surly, but also knew they weren't likely to survive and were expendable. Plus, and this is speculation on my part, it did seem, based on Kalam's coments in HoC, that Ash's group were bastards even amongst the Bridgeburners, unlike the squads that were with WJ at Pale, whom, if the survivours were any indication, were practially surperheroes as far as malazan soldiers were concerned.

Relatedly there was the Shadow Cult - it did seem that Dancer did the same thing to the that Kel did to the Bridgeburners. Approach them as their leader (tho in Dancer's case he probably killed his way to the top), bring them in as backup when the whole mess goes down on Malaz island, knowing full well they are unlikely to survive.

Unlike Ash's group, it did seem that the Shadow Cult knew they were on a suicide mission to assist Kel and Dancer in ascending. They contained the Azath, put Temper in place to stop Jhenna, and fought the Claw knowing that would expose their own infilitration of the Claw with resulting purge.


I'm blanking tho' - was it Shadow cultists or Claw who tried to keep Tayshrenn from the keep (the battle Kiska watches where three of Tays' bodyguards die)? Both sides had reason to keep Tays away but i don't remember if it was ever confirmed who was actively attacking him.


- Abyss, loves a good purge.

[D'rek]

Okay, first things first. Kalam (not Fiddler, btw) doesn't actually *see* Ash in HoC, he just hears whispering at his shoulder. Nor does he refer to Ash by name, just "that guy disappeared before we shipped out Malaz and his body was found the night of the assassinations". There is a reference to that person being acid-scarred, just like Ash, so it's likely (but not completely assured) they are the same. There's also a rank confusion between Temper, Laseen and Kalam on which rank Ash held, Lieutenant or Captain, but again not a big deal. Just felt like clarifying for anyone who's about to go re-read that entire part of HoC and won't see the name.


Now, my interpretation of Ash's events in NoK is that he had been in contact with Kel/Dancer or one of their representative (ie one of the Talons/Shadow-cultists) and asked/contracted/whatever to assist in the battle, their job being simply to get as close to Laseen's room as possible and kill as many Claw as possible along the way, optimistically getting to the room just as kel and dancer showed up (which Ash managed but most or all of the others were defeated along the way).

[D'rek]

Heh, cross-posted with you with agreeing posts.

Abyss, on Jul 29 2009, 08:58 AM, said:

Ash and co were Kellanved loyalists. It wasn't a secret that Surly wasn't going to return the throne, so that plus Dassem's 'death meant they were ready to act when Kel asked them to back his 'return'. Kel, of course, never intended to return to the throne, but it needed to be a good show and him and Dancer just showing up to commit suicide by Claw wouldn't have been as convincing.

Like it^^ Isn't there a passage somewhere in NoK where Dancer/kel expresses approvingly that Ash stayed loyal to them? This would prove to me that he was working on their side and not by himself.

Abyss, on Jul 29 2009, 08:58 AM, said:

Kel knew he could rely on them to be his cannon fodder when he went up against Surly, but also knew they weren't likely to survive and were expendable. Plus, and this is speculation on my part, it did seem, based on Kalam's coments in HoC, that Ash's group were bastards even amongst the Bridgeburners, unlike the squads that were with WJ at Pale, whom, if the survivours were any indication, were practially surperheroes as far as malazan soldiers were concerned.

Not sure I'd wholely agree with this. The only thing I got out of the HoC part is that Ash's company wasn't very good at counting hearbeats. Furthermore, most of the bastard-BBs talk usually refers to the BBs after they came out of the long northern-Genebackan battles (Blackdog, Mott, etc) and Ash deserted before then.

Abyss, on Jul 29 2009, 08:58 AM, said:

Relatedly there was the Shadow Cult - it did seem that Dancer did the same thing to the that Kel did to the Bridgeburners. Approach them as their leader (tho in Dancer's case he probably killed his way to the top), bring them in as backup when the whole mess goes down on Malaz island, knowing full well they are unlikely to survive.

Unlike Ash's group, it did seem that the Shadow Cult knew they were on a suicide mission to assist Kel and Dancer in ascending. They contained the Azath, put Temper in place to stop Jhenna, and fought the Claw knowing that would expose their own infilitration of the Claw with resulting purge.

Most, if not all, of the Shadow Cult were surviving Talons so I'd imagine Dancer already had their loyalty as their former leader and already the best Shadow Dancer around. Also why they were apparently a bit less concerned with the suicidal-ness of their actions, so long as they get to take down some of their rival Claws.

Abyss, on Jul 29 2009, 08:58 AM, said:

I'm blanking tho' - was it Shadow cultists or Claw who tried to keep Tayshrenn from the keep (the battle Kiska watches where three of Tays' bodyguards die)? Both sides had reason to keep Tays away but i don't remember if it was ever confirmed who was actively attacking him.

I'm almost positive that it was Shadow Cultists, the same group one of which had just murdered Oleg.

[ansible]

Drek, on 29 July 2009 - 01:09 PM, said:

Like it^^ Isn't there a passage somewhere in NoK where Dancer/kel expresses approvingly that Ash stayed loyal to them? This would prove to me that he was working on their side and not by himself.

Night of Knives, US Tor, p. 191 said:

'Yes. [Corinn] and Ash. They remained loyal and came to serve.'

Dancer speaking there. This implied to me that Ash had to receive instructions from somebody, possibly an intermediary, but definitely originating from Kel/Dancer.