[D'rek]

 QuickTidal, on 17 December 2013 - 03:51 PM, said:

 D, on 17 December 2013 - 03:44 PM, said:

But if the volcano ups and erupts on you in the night, you're done.

If this erupts during the night it will be loud as hell, and you can run away from it ...even in your jammies.

Like Pompeii?

[QuickTidal]

 D, on 17 December 2013 - 06:44 PM, said:

 QuickTidal, on 17 December 2013 - 03:51 PM, said:

 D, on 17 December 2013 - 03:44 PM, said:

But if the volcano ups and erupts on you in the night, you're done.

If this erupts during the night it will be loud as hell, and you can run away from it ...even in your jammies.

Like Pompeii?

One example in the history of the world where a city was destroyed by volcano doesn't really prove you can't get away from it.

I'll see your Pompeii and raise you Mount. St. Helens, Mount Pinatubo, and Moutn Etna (AKA Volcanoes that either erupted, or continue to erupt near cities and most people are evacuated safely)

[Aptorian]

What about Krakatoa then?

[QuickTidal]

 Not Brent Weeks, on 17 December 2013 - 07:50 PM, said:

What about Krakatoa then?

Krakatoa is one island and it dominates nearly the entire landmass...there was nowhere to run. Not really the same thing.

How did this conversation morph into this?

Weird.

[Aptorian]

I think the point is that you can't outrun a dragon.

[Macros]

I think the point is volcanoes that erupted back in the day wiped out nearby towns, in modern times we're read for them.
very relevant to middle earths technologically stagnant state.

[QuickTidal]

 Not Brent Weeks, on 17 December 2013 - 08:45 PM, said:

I think the point is that you can't outrun a dragon.

And you can't ourtrun a giant spider either.

[Aptorian]

Hmm, touché.

[Traveller]

 QuickTidal, on 17 December 2013 - 05:43 PM, said:

The initial argument was that Smaug was not the second biggest threat in ME next to Sauron. I maintain that there are others who are worse than Smaug...that's pretty much it.

Apparently I'm alone in that sentiment. This is nothing new.

I think this has gone pretty far from the initial arguement.

QT, you might be right that there are others who are 'worse' than Smaug... but I think that the actual initial point was, Smaug was the one that Gandalf feared would be used by Sauron. Yes, he did eventually manage to recuit Saruman, and yes, he allowed Shelob to continue living on the borders of his lands as she was a useful guardian. But back when he was lurking in Dol Guldur, it was Smaug who was the big, potential disaster for everyone if Sauron ever managed to join forces with him. He was a wildcard, just sitting in his mountain, and Gandalf thought that he was the biggest threat at that time - not the others.

He knew that Sauron's power (and even the Ring on its own) corrupted and increased the strength and abilities of whoever it came into contact with. Gandalf and Galadriel were even afraid of what it would do to them. So if Sauron had managed to get to Smaug, he would have been far, far worse than he was when he was rooted out by the dwarves.

Which is why Gandalf began gathering the dwarves and encouraging their return in the first place.

This post has been edited by Traveller: 17 December 2013 - 10:08 PM

[Macros]

You could man a wall against a giant spider no fucking problem.
pike it
run a sheild wall at it, with spears and swordsmen.

dragon flies over and torches the innocents.

flamethrower beats rock paper and scissors

[worry]

You could throw a penny down a wishing well and escape while the dragon has a conniption fit over the lost shiny thing.

[QuickTidal]

 Macros, on 17 December 2013 - 10:10 PM, said:

You could man a wall against a giant spider no fucking problem.
pike it
run a sheild wall at it, with spears and swordsmen.

dragon flies over and torches the innocents.

flamethrower beats rock paper and scissors

Are spiders REALLY fucking slow where you live? Cause where I come from they tend to be pretty damned fast.

[Silencer]

Are we seriously debating the deadliness of Shelob vs the deadliness of Smaug?!


More importantly - Glaurung was indeed worm. The first Dragon, who sired the other worms. As in; couldn't fucking fly. He was great and powerful, and horrifying, but he was earthbound. And he was fighting who again? Turin Turambar, wielding a sword made of black iron by one of the mightiest Elven smiths of old - and even then, the only reason he was able to kill Glaurung was with a sneak attack from underneath against his NOT ARMOURED LIKE A MOTHERFUCKER belly.

Do you want to know who was more badass than Glaurung? And from whose stock came Smaug? Ancalagon the Black. First of the Winged Dragons.


Do you know what Ancalagon did? Here, let me quote you some Wikipedia:

"Morgoth bred Ancalagon during the First Age to be the greatest and mightiest of all dragons, and the first of the winged ‘fire-drakes’. He arose from the inferno pits of Angband like a storm of wind and fire as a last defence of the realm of Dor Daedeloth. Near the end of the War of Wrath that pitted Morgoth’s hosts against the Host of the Valar, Morgoth sent Ancalagon leading a fleet of winged dragons from the fortress of Angband to destroy the Dark Lord’s enemies. So powerful was the assault of the dragon fleet that the Host of the Valar was driven back from the gates of Angband onto the ashy plain of Anfauglith."



The Host of the Valar. Was Pushed Back. THE HOST. OF THE FUCKING VALAR.


Never mind that dragon fire is hotter than any other known fire in the world - or that Ancalagon was obviously way more badass than Smaug - the point is that Ancalagon was Morgoth's last resort, his most powerful weapon, and very nearly turned the tide of the entire War of Wrath.

Smaug is descended from THAT. (Oh, and let it be noted; Glaurung? He enslaved or killed the entire population of Nargothrond. Installed himself as the Dragon-King. And got given his own command by Morgoth. "dumb beasts" my ass!)

And you'll forgive me for going all antagonistic here, I'm sure, because Smaug is or less specifically stated to be nigh upon unkillable - save for the one gap. That's not something ANYONE knew - it's something Bilbo noticed while in Smaug's cave and relayed to the Dwarves, who were most excited. He was overheard by a bird who told Bard. Otherwise, NO-ONE could have stopped him.

Heck, Smaug would give Sauron a run for his money, power-wise. He is literally up there with Balrogs, in terms of destructive force. He's not Ancalagon, but he is one of the most powerful creatures left on Middle Earth at the time, of that you can be certain. He was the last of the Great Dragons - it's pretty specifically mentioned in a few places, including iirc the Hobbit itself. And he was already centuries old before he attacked Erebor and the Kingdom.



Shelob's got nothing on him. Shelob is deadly, but would wither under his fire, or be crushed by his bulk (and her sting could do nothing against his armour), or eaten.



And that's why it is fucking ridiculous that he couldn't kill a single Dwarf. This is a Dragon we're talking about. Even for Tolkien, they were of the most powerful order of creatures, save the Maiar and Valar.

[QuickTidal]

You see how schooling me is done folks?

Silencer, I can't argue most of those points. Well played.

[Aptorian]

Are you saying my posionous volcano argument wasn't a stinger?

[QuickTidal]

 Not Brent Weeks, on 18 December 2013 - 12:00 PM, said:

Are you saying my posionous volcano argument wasn't a stinger?

You get NOTHING!

lol

Sure, we can count your poisonous volcano. This thread went off the rails pages ago anyways.

[blackzoid]

Hmm, have not seen it yet, but am wary of reviews and comments along this line. It sounds like the Goblin Town sequence in the first hobbit which I didn't like. A computer game where there is no danger to the characters.

But I do have to thank this unseen film for sparking a discussion that clarifies that Volcanos,Dragons (poisonous or otherwise) and Giant Spiders are a legit threat I face when going to bed in my jammies. And that probably I won't be able to out-run any of them if they come for me in the middle of the night.

This post has been edited by blackzoid: 18 December 2013 - 01:39 PM

[QuickTidal]

 blackzoid, on 18 December 2013 - 01:38 PM, said:

Hmm, have not seen it yet, but am wary of reviews and comments along this line. It sounds like the Goblin Town sequence in the first hobbit which I didn't like. A computer game where there is no danger to the characters.

But I do have to thank this unseen film for sparking a discussion that clarifies that Volcanos,Dragons (poisonous or otherwise) and Giant Spiders are a legit threat I face when going to bed in my jammies. And that probably I won't be able to out-run any of them if they come for me in the middle of the night.

Haha! Indeed. We aim to educate.

[Macros]

Silencer wins the thread.

but spiders, city wall, soldiers, job done.

[blackzoid]

Typing "Smaug versus Shelob" into the Googlemobile has yielded some interesting results

"But that did not harm their dark relations
And Shelob was always pleased to take dragon-back vacations"