[Fener]

Wow Atrahal, are you seriously trying to explain your theory as logical?

Heroes had a specific character MAYA that made a lot of sense for the multi-kill (it was actually 5 kills, IIRC). And it was balanced at least for the first day because that character started with very little action points.

What about this setup makes you think anybody is going to get a multi-kill ability? I'd say FM is possible, weird style mechanics like the MM Overload is possible, but trying to argue a multi-kill or that scum know each other is just bad play.

[Alkend]

Atrahal, on Jul 17 2009, 06:32 PM, said:

okay then alkend, you just keep following your assumptions to the letter without allowing for any possible variation and you'll be completely wrong in SH, not to mention that this game will be really bland with just 4 identical scum and 15 standard innos

You misunderstand the point people are trying to make. I refuse to believe you are this stupid, so clearly you are faking or you simply aren't reading the posts.

I don't disagree that scum can sniff each other out, but I don't see it as likely that they know each other from the start. Either way IT'S BESIDE THE POINT. Simply because we can't know, so speculating will just sow confusion. But maybe you want to sow confusion. I am counting on the fact that the mod are lying or not telling us the whole story. But I am sure they won't actually make it that easy for anybody to win. At least I will be sure until I am proven wrong.

Games like these are like playing with a blind fold - at some point you have to decide what is right and what is left and keep going. So unless you have some sort of proof of either, I say caution is the best way to play.

[Atrahal]

Fener, on Jul 18 2009, 02:36 AM, said:

Wow Atrahal, are you seriously trying to explain your theory as logical?

Heroes had a specific character MAYA that made a lot of sense for the multi-kill (it was actually 5 kills, IIRC). And it was balanced at least for the first day because that character started with very little action points.

What about this setup makes you think anybody is going to get a multi-kill ability? I'd say FM is possible, weird style mechanics like the MM Overload is possible, but trying to argue a multi-kill or that scum know each other is just bad play.

which is why i disclaimed it by saying it was unlikely before i suggested it. the point i was making is that we know jack all and shouldnt take any given theory as THE ALMIGHTY THEORY OF UNQUESTIONABLENESS where as soon as someone says "maybe its not that, maybe its like this" is immediately hounded by every other player online (even the lurkers who just happen to butt back in at that time cough alkend cough). thats a surefire way to self destruction imo

[Atrahal]

Alkend, on Jul 18 2009, 02:38 AM, said:

Atrahal, on Jul 17 2009, 06:32 PM, said:

okay then alkend, you just keep following your assumptions to the letter without allowing for any possible variation and you'll be completely wrong in SH, not to mention that this game will be really bland with just 4 identical scum and 15 standard innos

You misunderstand the point people are trying to make. I refuse to believe you are this stupid, so clearly you are faking or you simply aren't reading the posts.

I don't disagree that scum can sniff each other out, but I don't see it as likely that they know each other from the start. Either way IT'S BESIDE THE POINT. Simply because we can't know, so speculating will just sow confusion. But maybe you want to sow confusion. I am counting on the fact that the mod are lying or not telling us the whole story. But I am sure they won't actually make it that easy for anybody to win. At least I will be sure until I am proven wrong.

Games like these are like playing with a blind fold - at some point you have to decide what is right and what is left and keep going. So unless you have some sort of proof of either, I say caution is the best way to play.

whats the harm in speculation? the speculation so far has been entirely "there are lots of scum killing people, but they dont know anyone and have no symps so we cant tell who they are". at least by speculating on other possibilities and trying to think beyond this narrow definition theres some optimism for actally finding the scum!

[Path-Shaper]

To clarify; the mods don't lie to you.
We definately tell you only as much as we want you ro know, however.

[Alkend]

I don't understand where you hope this discussion will lead, Atrahal. We should be discussing scummy behavior, making cases etc.

[Alkend]

Path-Shaper, on Jul 17 2009, 06:40 PM, said:

To clarify; the mods don't lie to you.
We definately tell you only as much as we want you ro know, however.

Yes, that's what I meant.

[Fener]

Look, there are good theories and bad theories you can make based upon past games and the information we have in this game. A good theory is guilty millers, innos with vigs, 3-4 scum each with kills, etc. A bad theory is that scum know each other, that someone can headshot 30 people in one night, and most of the other theories you have pushed.

See the difference? This is why you are getting attacked for your vehemence to stick to the theory. Nobody is attacking the other theories because everyone knows they are valid ideas.

[Atrahal]

see its called speculation, where you conjure up ideas even if they arent necessarily logical and then helpful other people give constructive criticism to help refine the ideas, rather than just shouting at you and making facepalm pictures. you can tell its speculation by the bold and sized parts

Atrahal, on Jul 18 2009, 02:16 AM, said:

Korbas, on Jul 18 2009, 02:10 AM, said:

Anyway, looking over Karosis, this post strikes me as the most odd:

Karosis, on Jul 17 2009, 11:38 AM, said:

back briefly before bed.

"you know, the "last man standing thing", untill it is properly explained, doesn't really in any way preclude the fact that scum may know each other.
my vote on Karat is based off that assumption.

I am yet to be convinced that I am wrong, and we are, in fact dealing with X number of independent killers who know no one but theemselves.
in which casem i've got some serious questions about the balance of the game.

I think it is well-established, given the small number of basic tennents of the game, that "X number of independent killers who know no one but themselves" is pretty much the only logical conclusion. P-S made it very clear that all winning conditions were stated upfront, so there are no hidden "win with your partner" conditions out there.

The fact that Karosis is kicking up such a storm claiming he doesn't believe this very logical conclusion makes me think he is a killer trying a little too hard to convince other killers that he is an ignorant non-killer.

...I hope that made sense.

And, yeah, I think someone already mentioned it, but that bit at the end totally sounds like he's whining to P-S because his role is too hard.

Karosis

re whining bit: definitely

as for the rest, why do you (and others) think that all scum not knowing any other is the only logical conclusion? if that were so I think itd be really bland and just a lot of people with the same thing, whereas i think its more likely tapper would want it crazier then that. not that I think this is the way it is, but imagine a big group of scum, maybe 5 or 6, none of whom have killing powers but all have some stealing power. each one knows one or 2 others but not the whole group. depending on who they steal from they get powers but not always kills. so even though they know each other its a big rush to try and get that kill power and when the deaths start flying they are suddenly trying to determine who it is based on who they know who has died so they can turn on that person. eventually one is alive and if the town dies that scum wins.

not that I think thats how the game is setup, but its possible and crazy enough to fit the game rating

Quote

Fener, on Jul 18 2009, 02:23 AM, said:

And regarding your just-above-it post, why on earth would the bad guys know each other? They would kill each other in a heartbeat. And doesn't the FOUR kills last night, including 2 scum kills, pretty much throw your theory into the gutter?

why wouldnt the bad guys know each other? the thread rules and opening stuff doesnt say one way or another and this is TMDI 10. anything goes mechanic-wise if you ask me. and they wouldnt kill each other in a heartbeat if they didnt have kill powers...yet. and once they did they still wouldnt know all the other scum, just 1 or 2.

but that was just my random on-the-spot alternate scenario that i was throwing out there to try and show that this idea of assuming all the scum are lone killers is a bad assumption and we shouldnt vote karossi just because he is thinking outside the box.

as for the kills, well there could be vigs, inno killers (who would eventually lose powers to scum), an FM, overload mechanics on lesser abilities like in monastery murder or any of a billion other possibilities. though unlikely, it could even have been a one-time 4-person vig like there was in heroes 2

edit: bold function error

This post has been edited by Atrahal: 17 July 2009 - 06:47 PM

[Korbas]

Atrahal, on Jul 17 2009, 06:40 PM, said:

Alkend, on Jul 18 2009, 02:38 AM, said:

Atrahal, on Jul 17 2009, 06:32 PM, said:

okay then alkend, you just keep following your assumptions to the letter without allowing for any possible variation and you'll be completely wrong in SH, not to mention that this game will be really bland with just 4 identical scum and 15 standard innos

You misunderstand the point people are trying to make. I refuse to believe you are this stupid, so clearly you are faking or you simply aren't reading the posts.

I don't disagree that scum can sniff each other out, but I don't see it as likely that they know each other from the start. Either way IT'S BESIDE THE POINT. Simply because we can't know, so speculating will just sow confusion. But maybe you want to sow confusion. I am counting on the fact that the mod are lying or not telling us the whole story. But I am sure they won't actually make it that easy for anybody to win. At least I will be sure until I am proven wrong.

Games like these are like playing with a blind fold - at some point you have to decide what is right and what is left and keep going. So unless you have some sort of proof of either, I say caution is the best way to play.

whats the harm in speculation? the speculation so far has been entirely "there are lots of scum killing people, but they dont know anyone and have no symps so we cant tell who they are". at least by speculating on other possibilities and trying to think beyond this narrow definition theres some optimism for actally finding the scum!

You have yet to speculate anything that makes even the slightest bit of sense, though. Please, if you can come up with a sound explanation of how scum knowing each other wouldn't be absolutely retarded, by all means share it with us.

I can come up with some crazy theory about a role that has the ability to go to the moon and take a shit, and as long as he avoids any space rocks on the way, he wins the game, but doing so doesn't help any point I am trying to make, because it's just plain silly.

[Atrahal]

anyways, you guys go on and continue shouting your narrow mindedness, im goin to bed

edit: (but i will log back on before the deadline in the morning)

This post has been edited by Atrahal: 17 July 2009 - 06:49 PM

[Fener]

Why would you bring up completely unlikely theories? Do you know what that's called? That's called muddying up the waters and that is classic scum behavior, my friend.

[Alkend]

Well of course it's speculation, duh. Unless there's something you want to tell us. Anyway I don't like random speculation much.

[Alkend]

At least Fener is less of a jackass, which is good. On topic - I am leaning towards voting Karosis at this time. His inconsistent babbling is a reason for one.

[Fener]

Alkend, on Jul 17 2009, 11:51 AM, said:

At least Fener is less of a jackass, which is good. On topic - I am leaning towards voting Karosis at this time. His inconsistent babbling is a reason for one.

If you think I am less of a jackass then I am failing in my job

[Alkend]

Fener, on Jul 17 2009, 06:53 PM, said:

Alkend, on Jul 17 2009, 11:51 AM, said:

At least Fener is less of a jackass, which is good. On topic - I am leaning towards voting Karosis at this time. His inconsistent babbling is a reason for one.

If you think I am less of a jackass then I am failing in my job

Don't worry, you're still the leper around here.

[Fener]

Excellent :Patch:

Now, off to lunch.

[Alkend]

I'm gonna get something to eat aswell.

[Path-Shaper]

Fener, on Jul 17 2009, 08:53 PM, said:

Alkend, on Jul 17 2009, 11:51 AM, said:

At least Fener is less of a jackass, which is good. On topic - I am leaning towards voting Karosis at this time. His inconsistent babbling is a reason for one.

If you think I am less of a jackass then I am failing in my job

maybe you should change your avatar to suit your new image:

Attached File(s)

•  babe.jpeg (103.55K)
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[Korbas]

Alkend, on Jul 17 2009, 07:55 PM, said:

I'm gonna get something to eat aswell.

All right then, I guess it's time to get some work done.