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evil. 666 - just pointing out the obivous

#1 Guest_Truth_*

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Posted 13 July 2009 - 04:51 AM

I just wanted to draw your attention again to this little paragraph I found especially beautiful:

But really. Evil is nothing but a word, an objectification where no objectification is necessary. Cast aside this notion of some external agency as the source of inconceivable inhumanity - the sad truth is our possession of an innate proclivity towards indifference, towards deliberate denial of mercy, towards disengaging all that is moral within us.
But if that is too dire, let's call it evil. And paint it with fire and venom.

This is so beautiful! And it's so fitting that it is on page 666 in my edition. :killingme:
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#2 User is offline   Ain't_It_Just_ 

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Posted 13 July 2009 - 06:36 AM

View PostTruth, on Jul 13 2009, 02:51 PM, said:

I just wanted to draw your attention again to this little paragraph I found especially beautiful:

But really. Evil is nothing but a word, an objectification where no objectification is necessary. Cast aside this notion of some external agency as the source of inconceivable inhumanity - the sad truth is our possession of an innate proclivity towards indifference, towards deliberate denial of mercy, towards disengaging all that is moral within us.
But if that is too dire, let's call it evil. And paint it with fire and venom.

This is so beautiful! And it's so fitting that it is on page 666 in my edition. :killingme:


I noticed this and I suspected it was important...but I don't quite understand it.

It's very profound-much like the bit on grief.

This post has been edited by Ain't_It_Just_: 13 July 2009 - 06:36 AM

Suck it Errant!


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QUOTE (KeithF @ Jun 30 2009, 09:49 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
It has been proven beyond all reasonable doubt that the most powerful force on Wu is a bunch of messed-up Malazans with Moranth munitions.


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#3 User is offline   Salt-Man Z 

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Posted 13 July 2009 - 03:44 PM

I'm pretty sure it's just a chicken.
"Here is light. You will say that it is not a living entity, but you miss the point that it is more, not less. Without occupying space, it fills the universe. It nourishes everything, yet itself feeds upon destruction. We claim to control it, but does it not perhaps cultivate us as a source of food? May it not be that all wood grows so that it can be set ablaze, and that men and women are born to kindle fires?"
―Gene Wolfe, The Citadel of the Autarch
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#4 User is offline   ISTN4249 

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Posted 13 July 2009 - 05:33 PM

its probably in reference to the KCCM who by all accounts seem to be evil as evil gets from our viewpoints so far...but in DoD we may find out that their total brutality and what we assume was evil personified were actually quite necessary or important and done with "good intentions"
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#5 User is offline   Ain't_It_Just_ 

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Posted 14 July 2009 - 12:18 AM

I neve thought the KCCM were evil. Just expansionist. The T'lan Imass are as close as we get to evil, I reckon. Not that I hate them for it.
Suck it Errant!


"It's time to kick ass and chew bubblegum...and I'm all out of gum."

QUOTE (KeithF @ Jun 30 2009, 09:49 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
It has been proven beyond all reasonable doubt that the most powerful force on Wu is a bunch of messed-up Malazans with Moranth munitions.


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#6 User is offline   MTS 

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Posted 14 July 2009 - 02:46 AM

Evil T'lan Imass? Not a chance. If this set of books has taught us anything, it's that evil is subjective. Jaghut may think them evil, and others who don't understand the conflict (and probably some who do), but there are others who would call them justified in their actions. Extreme, but justified nonetheless. However, this talk of "evil" is irrelevant. SE is saying here that "evil" is a human quality, one that looks inwards rather than outwards, and intertwines with our more baser desires. Nothing inherently despicable, just a sad part of our human nature. Might as well damn the viper for striking, as they say.

Also, the 666 thing is probably a coincidence. It wouldn't have been 666 pages on his computer when he was writing it.

This post has been edited by Mappo's Travelling Sack: 14 July 2009 - 02:47 AM

Antiquis temporibus, nati tibi similes in rupibus ventosissimis exponebantur ad necem.

Si hoc adfixum in obice legere potes, et liberaliter educatus et nimis propinquus ades.
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#7 User is offline   ranman 

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Posted 14 July 2009 - 07:17 PM

I think it's just philosophy, and it certainly sounds like he's referring to people (humans) not Imass or KCCM or anybody else... he's just saying that the term evil is an over-simplification. He's saying that people have innately bad qualities/tendancies, and that it is easy for us to use the term evil as a label, instead of accepting the bad side of human nature. The world is not as black and white as people like to make it seem... evil is a very black and white word
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#8 User is offline   Night Hawk 

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Posted 14 July 2009 - 11:41 PM

View PostTruth, on Jul 13 2009, 12:51 AM, said:

I just wanted to draw your attention again to this little paragraph I found especially beautiful:

But really. Evil is nothing but a word, an objectification where no objectification is necessary. Cast aside this notion of some external agency as the source of inconceivable inhumanity - the sad truth is our possession of an innate proclivity towards indifference, towards deliberate denial of mercy, towards disengaging all that is moral within us.
But if that is too dire, let's call it evil. And paint it with fire and venom.

This is so beautiful! And it's so fitting that it is on page 666 in my edition. :question:



Yes, sociology and social psychology can be absolutely delicious =) Same with coincidences and irony, mmmm love ittt :p
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#9 User is offline   Raatchi 

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Posted 20 July 2009 - 02:44 PM

The number of the Beast is actually 616

is it possible that 5 pages got added by the editor? (eg title page, reviews, that blank page they sometimes have for no effing reason etc)
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#10 User is offline   AlanH 

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Posted 23 July 2009 - 01:33 PM

View PostRaatchi, on Jul 20 2009, 03:44 PM, said:

The number of the Beast is actually 616

is it possible that 5 pages got added by the editor? (eg title page, reviews, that blank page they sometimes have for no effing reason etc)


616 + 5 = 621...

And seeing as there is no such as thing as heaven or hell, the devil does not need a telephone number.
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#11 User is offline   MTS 

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Posted 23 July 2009 - 01:43 PM

He probably meant 50.

I wouldn't say that out too loud, AlanH, the Spanish Inquisition could overhear you...
Antiquis temporibus, nati tibi similes in rupibus ventosissimis exponebantur ad necem.

Si hoc adfixum in obice legere potes, et liberaliter educatus et nimis propinquus ades.
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#12 User is offline   derre77 

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Posted 30 July 2009 - 04:43 PM

View PostTruth, on Jul 13 2009, 12:51 AM, said:

I just wanted to draw your attention again to this little paragraph I found especially beautiful:

But really. Evil is nothing but a word, an objectification where no objectification is necessary. Cast aside this notion of some external agency as the source of inconceivable inhumanity - the sad truth is our possession of an innate proclivity towards indifference, towards deliberate denial of mercy, towards disengaging all that is moral within us.
But if that is too dire, let's call it evil. And paint it with fire and venom.

This is so beautiful! And it's so fitting that it is on page 666 in my edition. :)



This paragraph stuck in my mind as well (so much so that when I saw the thread entitled "evil" I knew exactly what it was going to be about!!!)!

I think that this passage was made even more awe inspiring when SE contemplated the word "evil" through other characters in the book two or three times afterwords.
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#13 User is offline   Agraba 

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Posted 30 July 2009 - 06:05 PM

The word "evil" is just like the word "dark". Both are objectified by people as something bad and that which to avoid but really, they're both inherently the lack of something. While "dark" is just a lack of light, evil is just a lack of altruism which is not something fundamental in nature, but simply one of the many traits lifeforms have developed in order to help them survive.

At the dawn of life, single celled organisms and other more developed (but primitive by our standards) life forms only acted in such a way that they could gather resources for themselves without accounting for the welfare of other separate life forms. So by our standards, the world was pure evil back then. Only more complex symbiotic life forms like ourselves needed to develop selflessness because our survival is more effectively assured by our working in unision. Of course evolution is never ideal as it is simply a mechanical process so we still have the natural proclivity to assuring our own gain at the expense of others which, when you think about it, is the more fundamental form of behavior.

I find it interesting to note that SE chose Murillio's confrontation with that shit disturbing child as the follow-up of that passage. Of course he meant to use a child as the subject of said evil only to reinforce his point that what we call "evil" is just our natural tendencies, and not some entity brewed over time from sinister hate and the desire to cause misery as is the common misconception.

This post has been edited by Agraba: 30 July 2009 - 06:13 PM

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#14 User is offline   Raatchi 

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Posted 05 August 2009 - 11:21 AM

AlanH - if there is no hell then maybe the devil carries a mobile phone?

thanks for your faith Mappo, but i actually did mean 5!

quite clearly i cannot count properly, durrrr.


I'll just shut up now.
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