[Gamelon]

Well, that was not by the playbook so far... But it WAS eventful and highly entertaining
Now to salvage something constructive from all this...

First off, it seems to me that Foreigner tag equates Gray King. The two thief gangs and the secret police are all townbased, so 'foreign' seems to apply to the Gray King only, who was a pirate, if I'm not mistaken. He also had hired the Falconer, who was as foreign as.

So, unless Kaschan made all this up and lied (playing with fire, then), I'm willing to accept him as finder.
The question now is: is he a finder learning faction alignment and he tarred Morgoth with the FALCONER brush to make him appear more of a threat without any actual basis for it, or does he learn role names?

If the first, I am content to leave him around. If the second, he has an awesomely powerful role, probably worthy of a faction leader. As such, anyone not of his faction will do their own faction a real pleasure by voting him off before he does more damage.

[Korlat]

The SPY role might well reveal roles, while the Find reveals factions.

[Korlat]

And, now, let me think, who would have the spy role and be a faction leader...

[Rashan]

Ok well that was exciting. Wish I was here for the good bits. Nothing like a reveal then meta attacks then more meta attacks and then WAM a kill on Morgoth. Fun stuff. While these aren't some of the more fun quotes I think that they are interesting none the less.

Path-Shaper, on Jul 7 2009, 05:19 AM, said:

I underestimated the length of the game FYI. Shouldn't become a Codex v2, but we'll see.

This is not a good sign. At all.

Korlat, on Jul 7 2009, 05:22 AM, said:

Interesting; does that mean, like in the Codex, we have certaing roles only being able to target other roles?

That is what I would take it to mean myself.

Korlat, on Jul 7 2009, 09:27 AM, said:

Karatallid, on Jul 7 2009, 05:23 PM, said:

Ok so that was an eventful start to day 2, I dont know enough about the book to be able to make sense of the CF, so anyone who has read the book was the CF saying Kaschans find was real or not?
So now that Liosan is dead were left with Korlart as a vig and Kaschan as a finder or leader person.

The faction would, it seems, make sense, but we can't know if Liosan was actually the Falconer or not. He was probably a Grey King Member though.

Kaschan, on Jul 7 2009, 05:23 PM, said:

in fact i have lost track of what it is i am being accused of here? can one of you actual remember why they are voting me? i mean two spent(supposedly) vigs splurg all over the thread and are trying to make me clean up.

@those who dont want to get involved (fear not little ones you shall be free)

I'm voting you because your using these terribly cliched arguments (appealing to the masses now, and using the confusion to make us look silly) to try and make your fake reveal look realistic. You survived my vig last night, so either I was guarded, or you are an important enough role to have a BP or a heal. And you aren't on my team, so I want you dead.

Now if we go off of the earlier quotes then we can see that those aren't the only options. The one that you left out is that Kaschan is probably a nonroled player who you targeted last night and weren't able to kill due to him not having a role. After reading that wonderful mess that is what I came away with. That he fake revealed and got to players to out themselves. Quite a good move for nonroled to make. And after watching Korlat defend Liosan (who wasn't on my team) and after seeing him say that he was a vig. What haven't I also seen Korlat say that he was going to try to kill again this night. I think that I have. That would lead me to believe that he is a killer not a vig which means that he is a dangerous person to leave around. So based on the fact that Kaschan probably isn't a power role and Korlat is a power role. I am going to have to

Vote Korlat

[Ampelas]

Hmm, that's some heavy stuff.

Karat makes a good point that if Kaschan is telling the truth, he is likely paired. Claiming finder is going to get him lynched so he must have had some important reason for getting Lio taken out. This, plus the CF, which people are saying points to the Grey King faction, lends veracity to his claim.

I don't see any reason to trust his Spider faction/HP was my leader claim, though. In fact, if he was telling the truth about Lio, this post makes it quite obvious what faction he's in:

Kaschan, on Jul 7 2009, 11:30 AM, said:

Emurlahn, on Jul 7 2009, 11:28 AM, said:

Heh. Dont really know what to make of all of this. Korlat - I dont really follow why you believe Kas is lying. Not that I'm sold on his reveal. Although claiming a specific faction during the first few days of a merc game is a sure-fire way to get yourself killed, so he must really want Lio dead. Hmm.

damn right i do, he is the biggest threat to my faction, so i want him lynched.

So, to sum up: powerful role - check; not in my faction - check

Vote Kaschan

[Korlat]

Korlat, on Jul 7 2009, 03:38 PM, said:

WAS a threat. Like you, I don't fake reveal. I don't reveal unless I feel it's necessary. I am telling the truth about being a one-shot vig. If I had multiple vigs, I wouldn't have outed myself and you on thread, I would have just killed you quietly tonight and no one would have been able to implicate me. But unfortunatly, that's not the option available to me.

Rashan, on Jul 7 2009, 06:16 PM, said:

Now if we go off of the earlier quotes then we can see that those aren't the only options. The one that you left out is that Kaschan is probably a nonroled player who you targeted last night and weren't able to kill due to him not having a role. After reading that wonderful mess that is what I came away with. That he fake revealed and got to players to out themselves. Quite a good move for nonroled to make. And after watching Korlat defend Liosan (who wasn't on my team) and after seeing him say that he was a vig. What haven't I also seen Korlat say that he was going to try to kill again this night. I think that I have. That would lead me to believe that he is a killer not a vig which means that he is a dangerous person to leave around. So based on the fact that Kaschan probably isn't a power role and Korlat is a power role. I am going to have to

Vote Korlat

*cough cough*
My role didn't specify I couldn't kill certain characters, by the way. It simply said I can kill one person during the night. So, while I took the codex thing at face value, I don't know if its true or not.

[Korlat]

Also, the thing about the Codex game was, iirc, Lish had too many guards; could happen again here.

[Korlat]

Also, that's some smooth symping, Rashan. I would have missed it, if not for the BIG NEON SIGN SCREAMING SYMP SYMP PROTECTING LEADER.

[Rashan]

Gamelon, on Jul 7 2009, 10:10 AM, said:

Well, that was not by the playbook so far... But it WAS eventful and highly entertaining
Now to salvage something constructive from all this...

First off, it seems to me that Foreigner tag equates Gray King. The two thief gangs and the secret police are all townbased, so 'foreign' seems to apply to the Gray King only, who was a pirate, if I'm not mistaken. He also had hired the Falconer, who was as foreign as.

So, unless Kaschan made all this up and lied (playing with fire, then), I'm willing to accept him as finder.
The question now is: is he a finder learning faction alignment and he tarred Morgoth with the FALCONER brush to make him appear more of a threat without any actual basis for it, or does he learn role names?

If the first, I am content to leave him around. If the second, he has an awesomely powerful role, probably worthy of a faction leader. As such, anyone not of his faction will do their own faction a real pleasure by voting him off before he does more damage.

See there were so many holes in Kaschan's reveal that I don't buy him as a real finder. Korlat and Liosan both pointed them out but did so by outing themselves. Plus I can't see someone with a power role revealing like that on day 2. Especially in a Merc game. That is asking to be targeted for a lynch. It looked to me to be a move that a nonroled player would make. After all as a nonroled he would have nothing to lose so it is ok for him to try to play with fire in order to get people to reveal themselves. Think about it. He points at Morgoth and calls him the Falcon. Doesn't matter if he is or not. He has to defend himself. If he is a leader then his team mates have to defend him. Now the fact that it was Morgoth just meant that he would definitely defend himself strongly and perhaps reveal something that he wasn't suppose to. Which he obviously did otherwise he wouldn't have been killed. A leader does not reveal on the second day of the game. It wouldn't make any sense what so ever.

[Gamelon]

Korlat, on Jul 7 2009, 10:15 AM, said:

And, now, let me think, who would have the spy role and be a faction leader...

Locke Lamora?
But yeah, I'm aware that The Spider herself, who would have contact with her adjutant Roland makes sense as a role reader. Awesomely strong combo there, if he was a killer. Incidentally, if Spider mirrors Locke, that makes Jean the equal of Roland... so, Korlat, since you more or less proclaimed yourself Jean, maybe we should take you out, too?

[Kaschan]

now you are calling me the spy? god you are scared.

@gamelon - sorry to say i am a very powerful finder in that i do get role name and not faction which i made perfectly clear at the start. my role was linked with rolands so even though i recieve that info without him it is to me effectively useless. i also understand why people are confused as to why i revealed, but the truth is i enjoying playing this way and i saw little benefit in me holding info that could be useful or fun. if you feel threatened in anyway, that is probably justified and i will understand. if its any consolation i will reveal what i find on thread and who i am doing a find on, so there could be great benefits to leaving me alive. As i understand it my faction was fucked when hp died as we are effectively just spies giving info to roland and the spider so have no killing powers left.

therefore in order to win i have to find locke, and get one of you good people to kill him for me and then somehow last until we have a majority, needless to say i dont have high hopes for surviving the day or if that happens, seeing the morning.

[Korlat]

Rashan, on Jul 7 2009, 06:24 PM, said:

Gamelon, on Jul 7 2009, 10:10 AM, said:

Well, that was not by the playbook so far... But it WAS eventful and highly entertaining
Now to salvage something constructive from all this...

First off, it seems to me that Foreigner tag equates Gray King. The two thief gangs and the secret police are all townbased, so 'foreign' seems to apply to the Gray King only, who was a pirate, if I'm not mistaken. He also had hired the Falconer, who was as foreign as.

So, unless Kaschan made all this up and lied (playing with fire, then), I'm willing to accept him as finder.
The question now is: is he a finder learning faction alignment and he tarred Morgoth with the FALCONER brush to make him appear more of a threat without any actual basis for it, or does he learn role names?

If the first, I am content to leave him around. If the second, he has an awesomely powerful role, probably worthy of a faction leader. As such, anyone not of his faction will do their own faction a real pleasure by voting him off before he does more damage.

See there were so many holes in Kaschan's reveal that I don't buy him as a real finder. Korlat and Liosan both pointed them out but did so by outing themselves. Plus I can't see someone with a power role revealing like that on day 2. Especially in a Merc game. That is asking to be targeted for a lynch. It looked to me to be a move that a nonroled player would make. After all as a nonroled he would have nothing to lose so it is ok for him to try to play with fire in order to get people to reveal themselves. Think about it. He points at Morgoth and calls him the Falcon. Doesn't matter if he is or not. He has to defend himself. If he is a leader then his team mates have to defend him. Now the fact that it was Morgoth just meant that he would definitely defend himself strongly and perhaps reveal something that he wasn't suppose to. Which he obviously did otherwise he wouldn't have been killed. A leader does not reveal on the second day of the game. It wouldn't make any sense what so ever.

So, it's SOOOOO nonsensical we should just ignore it and forget about the fact that even with your point that I mightn't have been able to target him, there's still a 50% chance he's important? Hell, a one in two chance, thats a calculated risk. I've spectacularly won in poker games taking much bigger risks; either you are playing with your cards pressed against your face, which is too cautious, or you are on Kaschan's team trying to direct attention away from him.

[Kaschan]

Korlat, on Jul 7 2009, 03:20 PM, said:

*cough cough*It simply said I can kill one person during the night.

so you can kill every night, nice of you to finally admit it

[Korlat]

Gamelon, on Jul 7 2009, 06:26 PM, said:

Korlat, on Jul 7 2009, 10:15 AM, said:

And, now, let me think, who would have the spy role and be a faction leader...

Locke Lamora?
But yeah, I'm aware that The Spider herself, who would have contact with her adjutant Roland makes sense as a role reader. Awesomely strong combo there, if he was a killer. Incidentally, if Spider mirrors Locke, that makes Jean the equal of Roland... so, Korlat, since you more or less proclaimed yourself Jean, maybe we should take you out, too?

I'm not in the GB faction. Also, I don't know anyone except my leader, so I would assume the factions all have slightly different hierarchies.

And Kaschan has basically admitted to being the Spider, right there.

[Korlat]

Kaschan, on Jul 7 2009, 06:29 PM, said:

Korlat, on Jul 7 2009, 03:20 PM, said:

*cough cough*It simply said I can kill one person during the night.

so you can kill every night, nice of you to finally admit it

ONE person. Not A person every night.

[Rashan]

Korlat, on Jul 7 2009, 10:20 AM, said:

*cough cough*
My role didn't specify I couldn't kill certain characters, by the way. It simply said I can kill one person during the night. So, while I took the codex thing at face value, I don't know if its true or not.

Korlat, on Jul 7 2009, 10:22 AM, said:

Also, that's some smooth symping, Rashan. I would have missed it, if not for the BIG NEON SIGN SCREAMING SYMP SYMP PROTECTING LEADER.

Oh he isn't my leader. Believe me. After reading his reveal I did find it curious that you of all people didn't come to the same conclusion that I did. Why would a finder reveal on day 2? He wouldn't but a nonroled would. So it was a brilliant move on his part. That you have revealed your self to be a killer means that we should get rid of you first. If someone took out Liosan then someone else will probably take out Kaschan if not then we can lynch him tomorrow. But you are a self proclaimed VIG (Bullshit) more likely a killer who is trying to hide behind a vig. Well I have seen that show before to and don't buy it any more then I buy Kashcans finder reveal.

[Korlat]

Kaschan, on Jul 7 2009, 06:29 PM, said:

Korlat, on Jul 7 2009, 03:20 PM, said:

*cough cough*It simply said I can kill one person during the night.

so you can kill every night, nice of you to finally admit it

Also, I like how you are attacking me to draw attention away from Rashan.

[Kaschan]

Korlat, on Jul 7 2009, 03:29 PM, said:

Gamelon, on Jul 7 2009, 06:26 PM, said:

Korlat, on Jul 7 2009, 10:15 AM, said:

And, now, let me think, who would have the spy role and be a faction leader...

Locke Lamora?
But yeah, I'm aware that The Spider herself, who would have contact with her adjutant Roland makes sense as a role reader. Awesomely strong combo there, if he was a killer. Incidentally, if Spider mirrors Locke, that makes Jean the equal of Roland... so, Korlat, since you more or less proclaimed yourself Jean, maybe we should take you out, too?

I'm not in the GB faction. Also, I don't know anyone except my leader, so I would assume the factions all have slightly different hierarchies.

And Kaschan has basically admitted to being the Spider, right there.

actually i just clarified what it means to be a camorra in this game, but cheers

[Kaschan]

Korlat, on Jul 7 2009, 03:30 PM, said:

Kaschan, on Jul 7 2009, 06:29 PM, said:

Korlat, on Jul 7 2009, 03:20 PM, said:

*cough cough*It simply said I can kill one person during the night.

so you can kill every night, nice of you to finally admit it

Also, I like how you are attacking me to draw attention away from Rashan.

i admit, rashan is the spider, you had me over a barrell with your amazing deductions and i cant contain myself anymore i rename thee jean tannen, sherlock of the holmes.

[Korlat]

Rashan, on Jul 7 2009, 06:30 PM, said:

Korlat, on Jul 7 2009, 10:20 AM, said:

*cough cough*
My role didn't specify I couldn't kill certain characters, by the way. It simply said I can kill one person during the night. So, while I took the codex thing at face value, I don't know if its true or not.

Korlat, on Jul 7 2009, 10:22 AM, said:

Also, that's some smooth symping, Rashan. I would have missed it, if not for the BIG NEON SIGN SCREAMING SYMP SYMP PROTECTING LEADER.

Oh he isn't my leader. Believe me. After reading his reveal I did find it curious that you of all people didn't come to the same conclusion that I did. Why would a finder reveal on day 2? He wouldn't but a nonroled would. So it was a brilliant move on his part. That you have revealed your self to be a killer means that we should get rid of you first. If someone took out Liosan then someone else will probably take out Kaschan if not then we can lynch him tomorrow. But you are a self proclaimed VIG (Bullshit) more likely a killer who is trying to hide behind a vig. Well I have seen that show before to and don't buy it any more then I buy Kashcans finder reveal.

That's an excellent tactic, but I've seen it before, in fact, used by Kaschan in a previous game. "We'll lynch him if he survives tonight." If he does, there will be enough new info from other CFs for you to conveniently manipulate people into forgetting the case on Kaschan. I revealed as vig, and as I said, if I was killer, I'd have ignored Kasch today and killed him in the night. Think about this logically; Kaschan being roleless and revealing as finder wouldn't be enough to convince me to reveal as a vig unless he really did have some help in the night, and I thought, and still think, the odds of him being a Leader are good enough to reveal that I used my one kill and push for his lynch.