[D'rek]

Well I think he gets a lot of bad rap because of the way L'oric disses his strategy in HoC, saying Korbolo is assuming the Adjunct will make a certain approach. Frankly though, L'oric doesn't seem to know much about strategy, but the Korbolo never gets a chance to try his strategy because his entire army is wiped out by ghosts over night. And knowing the Adjunct, I think it was a perfectly reasonable assumption to make. But because the battle never happens, L'oric gets the last word making Dom look stupid.

But also, yeah, the way his personality is done in tBH and whatnot does make him seem somewhat incompetent in a weird way, because some of the things he's talking about are actually rather clever, imo (changing history to get the peasants to kill the Wickans for you without even bothering to bring a formal army? awesome)

[Kryphon]

Doesnt change my desire to see him killed. I have a deep hatred for him due to his arrogance. Deserved or not, it makes me want to see him at the wrong end of someone's sword.

[Eispeis]

Kryphon, on Jul 9 2009, 03:16 AM, said:

Doesnt change my desire to see him killed. I have a deep hatred for him due to his arrogance. Deserved or not, it makes me want to see him at the wrong end of someone's sword.

The Wickan pogrom (or whatever it was called) actually made me furious. I'm may be easily moved by books (especially MBotF), but actually felt the need to scream the injustice of it all to someone who could stop it, which is kinda hard when it's a fictional world. FFS the Wickans were heroes and Coltaine a legend. How could they? HOW COULD THEY!?!

[Kryphon]

Easy. Rel is a horribly powerful and wicked person. His command of Elder magic and his apparent intelligence has allowed him to influence a lot. Tavore made some reference to why he hates the Wickans, so it's an old fued. And Dom is just ruthless. I don't think he cares whats being killed just so long as there is bloodshed. And I'm sure Rel helped him move from prisoner to High FIst, so he owes Rel. As long as he's in command he's happy.

[ISTN4249]

have the people continuing these discussions read Return of the Crimson Guard yet? or did i misinterpet or not remember correctly certain conversations/events from that book?

anyways, if you guys haven't read RTCG, you absolutely should because it gives a lot more insight into these 2.

[Dolorous Menhir]

D'rek, on Jul 3 2009, 12:52 AM, said:

Kryphon, on Jul 2 2009, 06:26 PM, said:

D'rek, on Jul 2 2009, 05:35 AM, said:

Kryphon, on Jul 2 2009, 01:04 AM, said:

If Dom was the best of the rest, the Malazans are screwed.

What makes you say that? He's been oft-spoken of as a great tactician and strategist, just a tad bloodthirsty. Hell, he was even good enough to command the Bridgeburners for a time before Dujek...

He may have been a COMPITENT commander, but not once did he show any brilliant tactics. Every move he maid, either on the Chain of Dogs or in Raraku, were expected and pretty stright forward. Even with far superior numbers he almost lost to Coltaine. He's a dime a dozen as far as generals go. What made Dujek, WJ, Coltaine, even Tavore to some extent, great was that while they did 90% of what everyong expected the other 10% left you dumbfounded and 3 steps behind. They were ALWAYS 1 move ahead, but then they always found a way to get another step on you.

Dom was basically ruthless enough and stable enough to get himself promoted to Fist. His ego was much greater than his talent. I stand by my statement. If Dom is the best of the rest, the Malazans are screwed.

That's your opinion and you can feel free to have it, but I personally think you're giving him too little credit while giving Tavore and your general opinion of the ordinary commander far too much credit. Take for example the CoD. To me, a mediocre commander would be like Kamist Reloe, endlessly attacking Coltaine and relying on sheer numbers. But Korbolo, while using basic things like constant raids and certainly making full usage of his numeric superiority, also showed his cunning in exploiting many of Coltaine's weakness. For example, secretly contacting the nobles promising them a free crossing of Vathar in the middle of the night, then making a floating bridge with archers and killing the wagon-pulling oxen to completely clog the ford. He knew exactly Coltaine's weakness - the nobles - and he exploited it fully. And besides all that, he was far-seeing enough that he had Mallick Rel in position long prior to the beginning of the uprising, keeping the Aren army behind the gates and the navy impounded so he could take over the entirety of 7C with ease, and then when he reached Aren he got pratically the entire army out there and had them surrender. Finally, keeping Coltaine alive and blasting the crows with magic so his greatest enemy can never come back, while cruel, was still a genius move. IMO, anyway.

I think it's a mistake to give Dom credit for all this. Mallick Rel is clearly the brains of this pair. He's the one with the plans, pulling the strings, with an agenda behind him. Dom is a tool in Rel's inventory, and his motivation is simple - self-interest. The maneouvring of forces prior to the Whirlwind uprising was within Rel's control (having Pormqaul's ear), but not Dom's (a regional commander).

As for the original question. Laseen is well aware that Rel and Dom bear responsibility for the Whirlwind, but for political reasons the public has been told that Coltaine was the villain and they were the heroes. So although they were initially imprisoned on their return to Quon Tali, Rel quickly set to work building his influence. If I remember correctly, at the time of BH Rel was still technically a prisoner, but was already exerting a great deal of control.

If you think about it, they must have had some kind of plan along these lines. Rel could not have expected Seven Cities to remain under rebel control indefinitely, so liberating the continent wasn't his aim. Absent the heroics of Coltaine and the Chain of Dogs, I think Rel would have somehow contrived to have the rebellion succeed in the most damaging way possible, while he fled to the centre of the Empire with his role in events still secret. Net result, he is closer to the centre of power, while the power of the Empire (and Laseen personally) are severely weakened. In the end, they've reached the same outcome. Coltaine's feat counted for little, but for the refugees who were saved.

[High house Me]

oh this part of the book frustrated me no end. I hope laseen knows what shes doing because Rel and Dom know exactly what theyre going to do. It makes me want to go in the book slap laseen and shout 'What the F are you doin' these guys seriously need to just get killed off by someone possibly kalam if hes still alive.

[lobo the wolfman]

Well some people here believes that she has a plan, some think she's making a mistake, i just think shes dumb and deserves to be kicked in the ass.

[bwgan]

coltainereborn, on Jul 2 2009, 08:01 PM, said:

That whole part where Dom and MR show up as the powers that be in Malaz city was one of the most frustrating parts of the story. I really wanted Kalam to say "screw it" and finish them off right there. It makes me wonder just what Laseen was thinking. Did she really think that Kalam would leave the Adjunct, betray the bonehunters, and become her master of the Claw? It seems like a big risk, b/c if he doesn't do it then she has two of the biggest snakes in the empire helping her run things. Was it a keep your enemies closer kind of thing? Or was she really OK with the destruction of Coltaine's seventh and the Wickans, and used MR to start the progrom so they could claim the Wickans lands? I have been going back and forth on whether Laseen is evil or just misunderstood. ever since the end of DhG when Kalam decides to stop his vendetta. Sometimes it seems like she is intentionally trying to bring down the empire.

Irrespective of what she might or might not be planning I think it is too simplistic to look at Laseen as either evil or misunderstood. The destruction of the 7th, the treatment of the Wickans...all a case of political expediency. As ruler there are things she has to do for the sake of the empire, now whether it all turns out that it's part of some grand plan is irrelevant, because at that point it's (for her at least) the 'right' decision...not morally, or in any way we would consider fair, but life isn't fair, and bad things happen to good people all the time. That is one of the reasons I love these books. There is a ... realism (yes I know it's fantasy fiction ) that you don't generally find. I guess my point is in order to rule an empire you have to be able to make hard choices and manage the consequences....which is why I'll never be an empress...

[coltainereborn]

all right, I guess that evil isn't the right word to use to describe just about anyone in SE's books, since things aren't as black and white in this series as others.

Have be reading through HoC again, and there is a great passage where Korbolo wishes that all magic would end, so it would just be armies vs armies(where he feels he has a great advantage). And he thinks about his plans to kill laseen, take over the empire, and continue its world conquest until everything is unified and the same, anything else will be destroyed.
I'll give him this- he is ambitious.

[Panador]

Sorry to warm up an old topic but it's the most appropriate I found for this:

Doing my second readthrough of the series and before I get to this part again (hopefully I'll pick up some things I missed the first time around and it'll make me understand this whole mess better) - is there any new information on this?
Laseen somehow being incapable of preventing or even noticing Mallick Rel supposedly turning her own Claw against her, under her nose... just doesn't fit. Confused me the first time, keeps confusing me everytime I think about it.

Korbolo Dom seems to be a surpreme idiot, actually believing that Laseen believes his and Rel's story etc. He's stupid and arrogant, on the other hand he's sometimes refered to as a brilliant tactician, who on the other hand again makes terrible mistakes because in his arrogance he underestimates his enemy, believing no one can outwit him. So all this mess is Rel's doing as far as I'm concerned.

Yeah, Laseen made mistakes, eg. letting Seven Cities rise up in the first place but she also was able to .... replace Kellanved and - going by Dujeks account in Memories of Ice - was "wise" enough to bust Whiskeyjack down to Sergeant not because she feared his power but because she knew that something bad (CG) was coming and she need capable people at "ground level", in positions to make decisions.

So how did this guy manage to pretty much hold the Empress of the Malazan Empire hostage in her own palace, turning her own Claw, against her. The Claw, mind, that even served her in "killing" the previous Emperor (no, haven't read Night of Knives yet, but will soon, in case something important happens there).
How the hell could that happen?

[Urizen]

Panador, on 25 September 2010 - 08:33 PM, said:

Sorry to warm up an old topic but it's the most appropriate I found for this:

Yeah, Laseen made mistakes, eg. letting Seven Cities rise up in the first place but she also was able to .... replace Kellanved and -going by Dujeks account in Memories of Ice - was "wise" enough to bust Whiskeyjack down to Sergeant not because she feared his power but because she knew that something bad (CG) was coming and she need capable people at "ground level", in positions to make decisions.

I call BS on that statement. She busted WJ down because he was a threat, not because she needed people "on the ground". WJ as High Fist of the Second army with Dujek as second in command would have been just as effective. Each and every pro-Laseen statement Dujek makes comes from Taychrenn.

[HoosierDaddy]

The Claw were always Surly's, from their very inception. They were how Surly became Empress.

As to how Rel was able to turn many of them: many of them became disaffected over time, and Rel was able to gain their allegiance. Rel is also not without his own power. Return of the Crimson Guard does a nice job of further detailing what exactly was happening to enable Dom and Rel to be in that room at the time in such positions of power.

[Panador]

Hm k, gotta read that then as well.

I'm not so sure on Tayschrenn telling Dujek, at leas the expression I got was that he was truly sorry for what happened, that he honestly put the Bridgeburners down there because he thought that'd be the safest place. If he faked that he did it well, I believed him.
Also, don't know who said that but someone said they saw Nightchill killing the mage Ak'oryns (or something like that). Maybe it really wasn't Tayschrenn who inadvertendly or not killed the other mages but Nightchill. If he didn't do that maybe he didn't do the things to the Bridgeburners either. I'm inclined to believe that he was arrogant etc. but did not necessarily intend to do the things people think he did. He seemed honestly shocked and dismayed at what happened to WJ.

Dujek himself isn't stupid either, he wouldn't just fall for any crap Tayschrenn told him.

[TheSurvivor]

It's a GotMism when it comes to who killed who at Pale. On one hand Tattersail was right there with the rest of the mages seeing what was happening but on the other hand the rest of the books lean towards Nightchill firing the first shot. Tay fought back, trying to hold Anomander and fight Nightchill at the same time. In the crossfire there were loses. I suppose it's a matter of opinion on which side of the story you choose to believe but personally I choose to believe Tay's side for two reasons. The first is his persona in all the other books puts him as someone not crazy enough to go around taking out the empire's best High Mages and not the type to purposefully kill off - how many was it? - a thousand soldiers? More? As for my second reason, I find Nightchill's reasons for the betrayal far more interesting and conclusive than Tay's supposed reasons.

As for the whole Dom, Rel, and Laseen thing you so need to read RotCG. I find it a great read in a seperate way from Erikson's books. It'll make you go Ha! and Ah! but like every Malazan book it'll leave you with so much to think about.

[Quick Bill]

Urizen, on 25 September 2010 - 10:25 PM, said:

Panador, on 25 September 2010 - 08:33 PM, said:

Sorry to warm up an old topic but it's the most appropriate I found for this:

Yeah, Laseen made mistakes, eg. letting Seven Cities rise up in the first place but she also was able to .... replace Kellanved and -going by Dujeks account in Memories of Ice - was "wise" enough to bust Whiskeyjack down to Sergeant not because she feared his power but because she knew that something bad (CG) was coming and she need capable people at "ground level", in positions to make decisions.

I call BS on that statement. She busted WJ down because he was a threat, not because she needed people "on the ground". WJ as High Fist of the Second army with Dujek as second in command would have been just as effective. Each and every pro-Laseen statement Dujek makes comes from Taychrenn.

How do you figure that Tayschreen is speaking through Dujek? I recall in MOI very clearly WJ and Dujek discussing this. The inversion of the command was to ensure that the right people were on the ground when the shit hit the fan. In my opinion one of the underlying motivations of the Malazan empire is to remove the influence of Gods over mortals. Economic development is difficult when ascendants wreak havoc and hold the threat of destruction over mortals. The Empire knew something big was coming and this is all part of the plan. I can find the quote from MOI if you like.

[Sinisdar Toste]

concurrent to this was the fact that when surly announced that she was now laseen, and empress, everyone who was looking to WJ for their cues saw him accept her, when he easily could have gripped the army's reins and started a civil war. in this context it may seem like she was busting him down to remove a threat, but it later becomes clear that she needed him in place with his bridgeburners for the CG's opening gambit. besides that, even busting him down didn't really remove the reverence the troops have for him.

[Tatterdemalion]

I think she busted WJ down more because it became apparent he wanted it that way. In not taking power for himself he made his feelings on high rank clear - that he wanted no part of it. People like Ultor and Dujek made no such claims. Thus maybe it was indeed his reward for facilitating her takeover, and by extension, the plans of Kellanved and Dancer. Remember, back then they were all a tight knit (though with daggers handy) group.

Meanwhile, I have read Crimson Guard but forget most of it. Thus, having just tonight reread the scene where Pearl meets Rel and Dom, I think the truth of it dawns on Pearl at the very end: Laseen started the rumors and Rel weaseled his way into ensuring he and his puppet were integral to their legitimacy. Thus, promotions. They arrived in chains, no longer fitting for 'heroes of the empire.' I believe Laseen knows the situation is no good. Pearl realizes she knows, knowing she could never trust them outright. She knows the events of DG. He then believes she wants Tavore to arrive to possibly help her out - while the vipers grin ear-to-ear knowing how uncomfortable the scenario will make Tavore feel. Meanwhile, Tay's just chilling as always, as yet showing no signs of being the mastermind behind existence. Or blocked off by Rel's newfound Claw agents. It makes sense they wouldn't all stay loyal to Surly - after all, many became Talons, did they not? Or at least many potential recruits were created as Talons instead. Quite possible to work the same thing without changing their name.

Does anyone else find it funny that the clawmaster and high mage of the empire

Spoiler

have been missing / done little to nothing the entire series? The Empress herself, to a certain degree. Very interesting.

PEARL: "...and without heroes we will self-destruct."
LASEEN: "You lack faith, Pearl."
PEARL: "In what exactly?"
LASEEN: "The resilience of a civilization."

Foreshadowing? Her attempting to tell Pearl, moments prior to bringing him into the room with Rel and Dom, that she believes the Malazan Empire will survive without heroes (thus freeing her to use Coltaine's legacy how she will to ensure surival) and therefore that the gambit is worth taking? Hm.

This post has been edited by Tatterdemalion: 09 November 2010 - 06:46 AM

[D'iversify]

Regarding Dom's competence: well, he did manage to get his 7C forces to go turncoat even iof he had to kill a lot of them. So he's certainly a very persuasive, probably quite charismatic general, with his troops at least.

[Bauchelain the Evil]

Yeah people seem to forget that Korbolo Dom was actually a gifted and talented general( who even led the BB for a while) whose only problem was a bit of blood-thirstiness. It was his frustration in not being able to beat Coltaine that made him degenerate.