[Rhand]

Apologies if this is already covered in another topic, but this is confusing. For me atleast.

Last time we saw them they were prisoners, yet when Kalam & Co go visit the Empress both Korbolo and Rel are (excepting the Empress) the most powerful persons in the Malazan Empire. I just finished TB the last few days and I can't remember anything about how they rose to power. How did this happen?

[Aptorian]

Mallick Rel was never taken prisoner. He escaped and travelled straight to the Capital where he some how managed to get himself into the inner cirkle of the empire. When Dom was taken in, Rel obviously did some interference on doms part and there was properly some lies and claims that the reports from 7C were false, etc. The truth of the matter was that, with Dujek gone rogue and the Adjunct untested, Dom was the last good High Fist in the realm.

[Rhand]

Aha, I see. Thanks

[Aptorian]

All the others were dead, renegade or just gone.

[End of Disc One]

IIRC Rel planted a bunch of "seeds" saying that the Wickans were the traitors and that Rel was on the Malazans' side all along. He also convinced Laseen that Dom was working undercover while he was with Sha'ik's army.

Actually I get the feeling that there is more going on here that we don't know, and that Laseen doesn't actually buy their story, or that someone is holding a knife to Laseen's back. But I haven't read RotCG yet and I think it may be touched upon in that book.

[D'rek]

Furthermore, there is the bit that publicly accepting Dom's story of Coltaine being the traitor and him being a hero gives the Empress an excuse (if the public widely accepts it) to exterminate the Wickans and use their lands for mass agriculture, the necessity for this being that the plague in 7C ruined food production for the empire.

[Kryphon]

If Dom was the best of the rest, the Malazans are screwed.

[D'rek]

Kryphon, on Jul 2 2009, 01:04 AM, said:

If Dom was the best of the rest, the Malazans are screwed.

What makes you say that? He's been oft-spoken of as a great tactician and strategist, just a tad bloodthirsty. Hell, he was even good enough to command the Bridgeburners for a time before Dujek...

[coltainereborn]

That whole part where Dom and MR show up as the powers that be in Malaz city was one of the most frustrating parts of the story. I really wanted Kalam to say "screw it" and finish them off right there. It makes me wonder just what Laseen was thinking. Did she really think that Kalam would leave the Adjunct, betray the bonehunters, and become her master of the Claw? It seems like a big risk, b/c if he doesn't do it then she has two of the biggest snakes in the empire helping her run things. Was it a keep your enemies closer kind of thing? Or was she really OK with the destruction of Coltaine's seventh and the Wickans, and used MR to start the progrom so they could claim the Wickans lands? I have been going back and forth on whether Laseen is evil or just misunderstood. ever since the end of DhG when Kalam decides to stop his vendetta. Sometimes it seems like she is intentionally trying to bring down the empire.

[Kryphon]

D'rek, on Jul 2 2009, 05:35 AM, said:

Kryphon, on Jul 2 2009, 01:04 AM, said:

If Dom was the best of the rest, the Malazans are screwed.

What makes you say that? He's been oft-spoken of as a great tactician and strategist, just a tad bloodthirsty. Hell, he was even good enough to command the Bridgeburners for a time before Dujek...

He may have been a COMPITENT commander, but not once did he show any brilliant tactics. Every move he maid, either on the Chain of Dogs or in Raraku, were expected and pretty stright forward. Even with far superior numbers he almost lost to Coltaine. He's a dime a dozen as far as generals go. What made Dujek, WJ, Coltaine, even Tavore to some extent, great was that while they did 90% of what everyong expected the other 10% left you dumbfounded and 3 steps behind. They were ALWAYS 1 move ahead, but then they always found a way to get another step on you.

Dom was basically ruthless enough and stable enough to get himself promoted to Fist. His ego was much greater than his talent. I stand by my statement. If Dom is the best of the rest, the Malazans are screwed.

[D'rek]

Kryphon, on Jul 2 2009, 06:26 PM, said:

D'rek, on Jul 2 2009, 05:35 AM, said:

Kryphon, on Jul 2 2009, 01:04 AM, said:

If Dom was the best of the rest, the Malazans are screwed.

What makes you say that? He's been oft-spoken of as a great tactician and strategist, just a tad bloodthirsty. Hell, he was even good enough to command the Bridgeburners for a time before Dujek...

He may have been a COMPITENT commander, but not once did he show any brilliant tactics. Every move he maid, either on the Chain of Dogs or in Raraku, were expected and pretty stright forward. Even with far superior numbers he almost lost to Coltaine. He's a dime a dozen as far as generals go. What made Dujek, WJ, Coltaine, even Tavore to some extent, great was that while they did 90% of what everyong expected the other 10% left you dumbfounded and 3 steps behind. They were ALWAYS 1 move ahead, but then they always found a way to get another step on you.

Dom was basically ruthless enough and stable enough to get himself promoted to Fist. His ego was much greater than his talent. I stand by my statement. If Dom is the best of the rest, the Malazans are screwed.

That's your opinion and you can feel free to have it, but I personally think you're giving him too little credit while giving Tavore and your general opinion of the ordinary commander far too much credit. Take for example the CoD. To me, a mediocre commander would be like Kamist Reloe, endlessly attacking Coltaine and relying on sheer numbers. But Korbolo, while using basic things like constant raids and certainly making full usage of his numeric superiority, also showed his cunning in exploiting many of Coltaine's weakness. For example, secretly contacting the nobles promising them a free crossing of Vathar in the middle of the night, then making a floating bridge with archers and killing the wagon-pulling oxen to completely clog the ford. He knew exactly Coltaine's weakness - the nobles - and he exploited it fully. And besides all that, he was far-seeing enough that he had Mallick Rel in position long prior to the beginning of the uprising, keeping the Aren army behind the gates and the navy impounded so he could take over the entirety of 7C with ease, and then when he reached Aren he got pratically the entire army out there and had them surrender. Finally, keeping Coltaine alive and blasting the crows with magic so his greatest enemy can never come back, while cruel, was still a genius move. IMO, anyway.

[Kryphon]

Tavore is a stretch. SO far she's done nothing to show she's anything beyond a good commander. Without spoilering anything, she's shown me nothing. Dom, while far superior to Reloe, still hasn't distinguished himself IMHO. I think, in the end, it'll be his insanely massive ego that screws him. He's not half as brilliant as he thinks he is. Better than an average fist? Well, you're probably right, Drek. But still not a match for the better Malazan Fists. For whats left, I'm sure he is their best choice. Assuming the First Sword mantle just screams overcompensating ass to me though. But we'll see.

[D'rek]

Kryphon, on Jul 2 2009, 08:37 PM, said:

Tavore is a stretch. SO far she's done nothing to show she's anything beyond a good commander. Without spoilering anything, she's shown me nothing. Dom, while far superior to Reloe, still hasn't distinguished himself IMHO. I think, in the end, it'll be his insanely massive ego that screws him. He's not half as brilliant as he thinks he is. Better than an average fist? Well, you're probably right, Drek. But still not a match for the better Malazan Fists. For whats left, I'm sure he is their best choice. Assuming the First Sword mantle just screams overcompensating ass to me though. But we'll see.

Yeah the First Sword bit is a bit much, considering the only previous FS ran around the battlefields slaughtering everyone in his way, and I doubt Korbolo would be doing *that*. Of course the real reason he took the mantle of FS is just so he's the higher-ranking then Tavore and just about any other aids to the Empress.

[HoosierDaddy]

D'rek, on Jul 2 2009, 09:15 PM, said:

Kryphon, on Jul 2 2009, 08:37 PM, said:

Tavore is a stretch. SO far she's done nothing to show she's anything beyond a good commander. Without spoilering anything, she's shown me nothing. Dom, while far superior to Reloe, still hasn't distinguished himself IMHO. I think, in the end, it'll be his insanely massive ego that screws him. He's not half as brilliant as he thinks he is. Better than an average fist? Well, you're probably right, Drek. But still not a match for the better Malazan Fists. For whats left, I'm sure he is their best choice. Assuming the First Sword mantle just screams overcompensating ass to me though. But we'll see.

Yeah the First Sword bit is a bit much, considering the only previous FS ran around the battlefields slaughtering everyone in his way, and I doubt Korbolo would be doing *that*. Of course the real reason he took the mantle of FS is just so he's the higher-ranking then Tavore and just about any other aids to the Empress.

RotCG spoilers:

Spoiler

Snickers @ the "and I doubt *that*...

[D'rek]

HoosierDaddy, on Jul 2 2009, 09:34 PM, said:

D'rek, on Jul 2 2009, 09:15 PM, said:

Kryphon, on Jul 2 2009, 08:37 PM, said:

Tavore is a stretch. SO far she's done nothing to show she's anything beyond a good commander. Without spoilering anything, she's shown me nothing. Dom, while far superior to Reloe, still hasn't distinguished himself IMHO. I think, in the end, it'll be his insanely massive ego that screws him. He's not half as brilliant as he thinks he is. Better than an average fist? Well, you're probably right, Drek. But still not a match for the better Malazan Fists. For whats left, I'm sure he is their best choice. Assuming the First Sword mantle just screams overcompensating ass to me though. But we'll see.

Yeah the First Sword bit is a bit much, considering the only previous FS ran around the battlefields slaughtering everyone in his way, and I doubt Korbolo would be doing *that*. Of course the real reason he took the mantle of FS is just so he's the higher-ranking then Tavore and just about any other aids to the Empress.

RotCG spoilers:

Spoiler

Snickers @ the "and I doubt *that*...

yeah yeah yeah, but I'm trying to present my case from a purely BH-and-below PoV...

[Icarium Kalam]

can both burn in hell

[HoosierDaddy]

Well, you can always read the spoiler text. It's not really a big deal.

[Kryphon]

I read the spoiler... Not proud about it... And wha? It told me NOTHING! Well, nothing I didnt already know.

[End of Disc One]

I accept the fact that Dom is a great general because of the positions he's held and what characters say about him, I just think SE has done a poor job with his character. He seems like an idiot to me.