[foolio]

I am doing a re-read of MOI right now and just got to the part where Itkovian cuts off Rath Feners Hands and it got me thinking about Heboric. Who performed the Reve on him? Was he betrayed by someone within Fener's church? Was it Laseen trying to crush the boar cult? And did Fener really take his hands and provide ghost hands all along , or did the ghost hands come from interacting with Jade statue? Also , Heboric was just a middling priest of Fener, right?

This post has been edited by foolio: 01 July 2009 - 03:48 PM

[Khellendros]

I don't think Heboric was too highly ranked in the cult (could be wrong), but he was also supposedly being set up to become Fener's Destriant before the whole hand-cutting episode, whence the title went to Karnadas instead.

His hands were supposedly cut off and he was expelled from the cult because of trumped up charges, supposedly through Laseen's instigation. Not because the Boar Cult was seen as becoming too powerful, but because of Heboric's writings regarding the 'truth' behind Kellanved and Dancer's deaths - i.e. that Laseen botched the job and the two ascended instead. So Laseen had him shut up, effectively, probably by paying off some corrupt high-ranking members of Fener's cult.

[Raraku]

Also because the act of cutting off his hands werent an act of pure justice, Fener couldnt touch them so he sealed the hands and kept them. The day Heboric would die, Fener would give him back his hands and then Heborics soul would be used for revenge and justice against those who had done the act.
Instead Heboric touched the Jade statue and an enormous amount of energy suddenly came into Heborics hands which broke the seal that Fener had placed on them and the hands push Fener out unwillingly onto the mortal plane.
This is all there in MOI when Rake is talking to Whiskeyjack.

This post has been edited by Raraku: 01 July 2009 - 04:17 PM

[Obdigore]

Heborics History: As I recall it.

soldier cum scholar
member of fener's cult.
for some reason, malazan officials convinced the cult to punish heboric. (We aren't sure it was Laseen, I don't think)
hands removed, tattoos marked him as a traitor, he is being sent to otataral isle as all prisoners for life are.
escaped. ate the special fruit/drank the water that seems to have been tainted by the ascendancy ritual
touched jade statue
had 1 hand jade and 1 hand otataral
visions/nightmares, goes with Felisan to the Apocalypse
is given henebara by someone in felisans camp, to drug him
unbenounced to him, henebara removes the 'defenses' of the otataral
both hands are green - and clawlike
he thinks he is treach's mortal sword, but I believe he was the destriant, right?
leaves with hooker, assassin, child, mage, demon.
is ambushed and killed along the way, by T'lan Imass under the direction of the Chained One.
More jade falls from sky, his corpse slips off ship into ocean. Glows green as it sinks.
Confusing scene of people/things calling out for him to set them free or to join them.
Prologe of DoD has him back, in command of army, for justice/karma/retribution.
Jade statues are assumed to be related to CG, who he is commanding is not clear.

I'm sure people have corrections, and I would love to hear some quotes from the book if you do have corrections, since I am sure to be wrong in some places.

[Aptorian]

Hee, hee... you said cum

He was also a thief at one point I think. It wasn't just a false allegation.

Also, it's not a mistake that he was first a Destriant and then became a Shield Anvil. You don't chose for yourself what role you're going to play. At first he was the destriant, among other things we saw him heal... was it scilara or Felisin the Fatter? ... then later, when the world was about to end, Hood or Paran probably gave Treach a nudge, or maybe the big god sensed what was needed, and he changed Heboric into a Shield Anvil.

[Obdigore]

He healed both of them I think.

Healed Bidithal's 'gifts' to Felisin the Fatter, and healed Scillara's lungs, I think.

[foolio]

thank you for the roundup. Thats exactly what I was looking for, but

Quote

hands removed, tattoos marked him as a traitor, he is being sent to otataral isle as all prisoners for life are.

Did his tattoos anounce him as a traitor? Werent his Tattoos different thatn the Tattoos some other god gave Rath Fener? I am real hazy on this but I do know that Itkovian can tell that the tattoos growing on Rath Fener are definately not from Fener, but another entity. Is it possible that the tattoos on heboric were missinterpreted by the ever sulking heboric and maybe they really menat that he was not a traitor and fener still accepted him?

[D'rek]

(Correcting and answering things not yet answered)

foolio, on Jul 1 2009, 11:47 AM, said:

And did Fener really take his hands and provide ghost hands all along , or did the ghost hands come from interacting with Jade statue?

When we first met him he just had stumps. The ghost hands became physical when he went blind (as they were going through the caves near the Whirlwind wall, post-Silanda-trip). Who knows if they would've come if he'd gone blind back in Unta though.

Captain Oblivious, on Jul 1 2009, 03:21 PM, said:

had 1 hand jade and 1 hand otataral

Nopers. Originally both his missing hands were connected to Fener, somewhat. Not sure about between the mines and the statue, but after touching the statue one of his hands was otataral and Jade locked in a struggle and his other hand was plunged into Fener's warren, gripping very tightly (he says to Kulp he would let go if he could). This is crucial, as it is Baudin touching the sacredmost tatoo with the wrong hand, the Jade/otataral hand, that knocked Fener out of his realm. If Baudin had used the Fener-warren hand, thinks might've turned out a lot differently!

foolio, on Jul 1 2009, 04:56 PM, said:

thank you for the roundup. Thats exactly what I was looking for, but

Quote

hands removed, tattoos marked him as a traitor, he is being sent to otataral isle as all prisoners for life are.

Did his tattoos anounce him as a traitor? Werent his Tattoos different thatn the Tattoos some other god gave Rath Fener? I am real hazy on this but I do know that Itkovian can tell that the tattoos growing on Rath Fener are definately not from Fener, but another entity. Is it possible that the tattoos on heboric were missinterpreted by the ever sulking heboric and maybe they really menat that he was not a traitor and fener still accepted him?

Hard to say, but I bet that with the oft-mentioned abilities of worshippers to compel their gods, Fener didn't really have a lot of choice to deny the justice demanded by a High Priest/MS/whomever invoking the Reve to punish Heboric, no matter if that person was wrong or not.

[foolio]

thanks D'rek. I just read Anomader' stake in MOI, he said that the priests of Fener were forced to perform the reve by Laseen/the Claw. He also said that the hands, upon arrival in Feners warren were like poisen to him. I foundd this next part very interesting, Fener planned on letting Heboric die in the mines and reuniting him with his hands because he had been screwed and he was going to use Heboric to exact mercilous revenge on Laseen and the Malazan empire...
I could have missunderstood some of this but it sounded like the tattoos Fener put on Heboric anounced that he was not a traitor but everyone, even heboric himself, missinterpreted them.

Now I dont know why the hands were already poisenous to Fener, because no Jade weirdness had taken place, just a priest of fener set up by the Claw losing his hands.

This post has been edited by foolio: 02 July 2009 - 07:16 PM

[Abyss]

Aptorian, on Jul 1 2009, 03:37 PM, said:

... it's not a mistake that he was first a Destriant and then became a Shield Anvil. You don't chose for yourself what role you're going to play. At first he was the destriant, among other things we saw him heal... was it scilara or Felisin the Fatter? ... then later, when the world was about to end, Hood or Paran probably gave Treach a nudge, or maybe the big god sensed what was needed, and he changed Heboric into a Shield Anvil.

Disagree. I just reread that bit in TB. Heboric's monologue suggests even Trake didn't know what he was - that Trake recruited Heboric as Destraint and because he was an ex priest everyone assumed it, but in truth he was SA all the time. BUT... i think SE was cleverer that that... i think Heboric himself chose to change his roll because the situation required it. So he WAS Destriant, but the situation required a Sheild Anvil so heboric himself made the switch. I do not think Trake had any say in it.

foolio, on Jul 1 2009, 04:56 PM, said:

...
Did his tattoos anounce him as a traitor? ...

I had understood the tattoos were a part of his priest thing and had nothing to do with his being reve'd and expelled.

- Abyss, could say Heboric was a Priest of Bacon...

[D'rek]

foolio, on Jul 2 2009, 03:01 PM, said:

Now I dont know why the hands were already poisenous to Fener, because no Jade weirdness had taken place, just a priest of fener set up by the Claw losing his hands.

the hands were poison because he had been wrongly accused/tried/punsihed

Abyss, on Jul 2 2009, 03:08 PM, said:

Aptorian, on Jul 1 2009, 03:37 PM, said:

... it's not a mistake that he was first a Destriant and then became a Shield Anvil. You don't chose for yourself what role you're going to play. At first he was the destriant, among other things we saw him heal... was it scilara or Felisin the Fatter? ... then later, when the world was about to end, Hood or Paran probably gave Treach a nudge, or maybe the big god sensed what was needed, and he changed Heboric into a Shield Anvil.

Disagree. I just reread that bit in TB. Heboric's monologue suggests even Trake didn't know what he was - that Trake recruited Heboric as Destraint and because he was an ex priest everyone assumed it, but in truth he was SA all the time. BUT... i think SE was cleverer that that... i think Heboric himself chose to change his roll because the situation required it. So he WAS Destriant, but the situation required a Sheild Anvil so heboric himself made the switch. I do not think Trake had any say in it.

Well we really just don't know. On the one hand he could've always been the SA, perhaps he consciously changed himself, perhaps Hood changed him (and could because he was dead) or Hood asked Treach to do it. Perhaps even Treach made him Destriant but some confused worship of the Outsider by the frightened souls within the Jade statues changed his aspect...

[Abyss]

foolio, on Jul 2 2009, 03:01 PM, said:

...Now I dont know why the hands were already poisenous to Fener, because no Jade weirdness had taken place, just a priest of fener set up by the Claw losing his hands.

Because the Reve was invoked falsely. It goes to the whole 'actions and beliefs of the worshippers impact on the god' thing. It meant Fener was already vulnerable to Heboric when Heb' became a channel to the Jade juice.

- Abyss, could say Heboric was a handy guy to have around...

[foolio]

D'rek

Quote

the hands were poison because he had been wrongly accused/tried/punsihed

Abyss

Quote

Because the Reve was invoked falsely. It goes to the whole 'actions and beliefs of the worshippers impact on the god' thing. It meant Fener was already vulnerable to Heboric when Heb' became a channel to the Jade juice.

Fair enough. This makes sense.

Quote

I had understood the tattoos were a part of his priest thing and had nothing to do with his being reve'd and expelled.

Well I am assuming the tattoos came after the reve, kind of like what happened to Rath Fener. And I think Anomander mentions Heboric being tattoed after the Reve.

[Aptorian]

But if Heboric wasn't a Destriant, how did he heal the women? Are we saying his ghost hands did it?

I would like to see this quote. How "true" does Heboric sound in this passage? Sure it's not just Heboric who thinks he knows what he thinks he knows, while in fact he was just going crazy?

[foolio]

Quote

Sure it's not just Heboric who thinks he knows what he thinks he knows, while in fact he was just going crazy?

I, often, dont even know what I think I know.

[Aptorian]

I know what you're saying... I think.

[D'rek]

Aptorian, on Jul 2 2009, 04:30 PM, said:

But if Heboric wasn't a Destriant, how did he heal the women? Are we saying his ghost hands did it?

I would like to see this quote. How "true" does Heboric sound in this passage? Sure it's not just Heboric who thinks he knows what he thinks he knows, while in fact he was just going crazy?

He doesn't necessarily have to be a Destriant to heal, unless there's some Constitution of Treach that specifically says so...

[Aptorian]

Well, comparing the titles with the Grey Swords. It would seem that only the Destriant that can heal. I guess the destinction would be that the Destriant heals physical trauma, and the Shield Anvil takes mental and spiritual trauma.

[Abyss]

Yes, but that limit is a 'human' concept... ie, Karanadas obtained the title of destriant, and everyone knows destriants and just uber priests, so that's all he was.

The brilliance of the 'Heboric is dead but stops the Jade chunks' scene is that he became Sheild Anvil because that's what the situation required, NOT because his god said so. The implication is that while there are however many SA/D/MS out there who fulfill only the one role, in theory, any of them could be any role or all of them.

It goes to the whole 'humans are more powerful than anyone, gods included, realize' theme.

- Abyss, more powerful than a locomotive...

[The Swordbearer]

My take on the whole Heboric thing.

pre judgement/Lassen as Empress. He's a once theif? {gutter rat child, simularities to Crokus or Grub situation? noticed by Fener at a young age?} now a certified preist of Fener, complete with the boar Tattooing to honour his God. A true beleiver who would trade his left Nard to see Fener back where he belongs. Allso happens to be an outspoken historian of high reputation accademically, The almost reverential friendship of Duiker supports this.

His supporters in the preisthood with Fener's support and approval Nominate Heboric the outspoken for supreme Destriant position.{seems there can be more than one Destriant} ie: The one with the Grey Swords I Remember Itcovian was SA and Brukhalian as MS only... Sorry dont remember the DS name. their patron God was Fener who they new for surety was missing/lost from his warren. before the survivors of the Grey Swords went to Togg and Fanderay post Capustan.

After Takeover of Malaz Empire by Laseen she continues Kellanved's previous try to reduce the influence of the boar cult {was stated by Duiker...? that Kellanved tried to reduce the power the cult had in the Malaz army and allso that it failed} Might have been her dogs breakfast right from the get go working as clawmaster for Kellanved. Heborics rise through the preisthood coupled with his critisizing the powers that be would have sent alarms ringing right to the top.

Cue the farce of a trial where Heboric is Bereft of his Hands, they Go to Fener for Judgement being wrongly tried and convicted they are anathema to Fener as such he is unable to deal with them.

When Heb gets sick from the Otataral/Jade the only way to heal him was to put his ghost hand on his heart the same way he would have accesed his/Feners warren if he were whole. This caused fener to be Expelled from his warren {perhaps the only way he could/would heal Heboric was to physicaly manifest in his entirety? non of his essence left back home to return} I get the feeling this could have been a hoped for outcome for Kellanved/Shadowthrone to get a newbie/tractible God of war ie: Treach/Trake

Treach Assends to the war god warren, sez hmm whats this hands hey I can use these and bingo bongo Heboric is now a reluctant, tattoos morphing to tiger barbs, rather than boar bristles, no longer blind or crippled Destriant!. Or so he thinks in the begining, when in actuality Treach fingered him as Sheild Anvil. which helps him not a fig as he then gets diced up by the CG's renegade Tlan Imass. And finnaly dumped in the water just in time to deal with the jade prison/meteor shower.

Last snippet of Info on Heboric I remember is from a Deck of Dragons card {slips my mind who's doing the reading?} depicting a curled up body >> Heboric, Imo, laying at a confused/bemused/stunned Treach's" feet.

Sorry I meant this to be short an sweet and many of my points were prev brought up By
Abyss, Aptorian, and others I just find it easier for me to do it this way than all the quote'ing