[Severian]

Dont you think malazans really exaggerated on letherii invasion? their numbers are few, they are in foreign land they are not very smart (from the descriptions of malazan soldiers) but they kill hundreds of tiste edur easly and they lost only 8-10 soldiers again and again some moranth munitions and crossbows was it really that easy?.. This looks nonsense to me, is not the edur who conquered lether? they have powerful warlocks also lether has mages and they know terrain far better than malazans they must have easily locate them and kill malazans..
what do you think?

[Aptorian]

The Malazans lost 200 marines out of 1000. That's a 20% loss of initial numbers.

They were moving fast and under cover, using shadow magic tactics to camouflage, muffle sounds and confuse. They also used superb training, experience and a form of weaponry, Munitions, unknown on Lether to get the upperhand when ever they made contact.

All in all, I thought it was a fair portrail of the potential of the marines.

You also have to remember that the Letherii Edur companies they meet initially are not using the traditional edur tactics of fighting from MT. They revert to these late in the book when it becomes obvious that the letherii tactic is not suited to handle the Malazan gorilla tactic.

[coltainereborn]

Not to gang up on you Sev, but I agree with Apt that the invasion showed Malazan Marines doing exactly what they were created to do,mixed up units, hit and run aided by magic, with Moranth munitions gave them the advantage at the beginning. Near the end they were being driven to the city by the Edur, who had dismissed the traditional Letheri military tactics and gone back to a more natural war for them, and would have been destroyed entirely if not for Beak.

I actually think it was a nice change of pace for the Bonehunters to make it through, after the BB, the Grey Swords(twice), the Chain of Dogs, etc. But I say give it time, I'm sure that the BH's numbers will dwindle eventually.

[Severian]

uh i dunno but through the book i constantly keep reading that malazans killing edur by scores they keep ambushing edur in a land they set foot days ago.. and im not aware that malazans lost 200 soldier but i remember several names dead after the confrontations that devastated edur warriors.. i remembered fiddler's squad came to final battlefield unscathed .. so i felt like SE favored malazans a bit ..

[HoosierDaddy]

The Malazans had a gross advantage at first.

No one had reported their arrival, so the Letherii didn't know until platoons started going missing.
The Letherii couldn't track them because Hold magic couldn't sense the more refined Warren magic of Mockra and Meanas.
The Malazan cross-bow was superior to any ranged weapon the Letherii had ever encountered, and thus their bolts shredded armor.
Moranth munitions were used prodigiously to annihilate squads quickly.
The Malazans avoid contact with large forces where their guerilla tactics won't work.

If you put all that together: hidden, heavily armed, unknown, and fleeing instead of making stupid attacks, the success of the Marines isn't that farfetched. As others have noted, once the Edur switched tactics, the entire operation changed because they no longer had such a gross-advantage.

[Aptorian]

Oh yeah, the crossbow, I'd forgotten to mention that advantage. That was probably even more important than the munitions because of how effective and relatively noiseless they are in ambushes.

[caladanbrood]

They did lose a lot of marines. It's a bit of a dodgy piece of writing mebbe, because the extent of these loses was only vaguely mentioned, with the actual toll of the campaign not represented in the marines who made it into the main story...

[Ain't_It_Just_]

I remmeber reading something about three squads being cut to pieces-if there had been a bit more of that I gather it would have seemed more fair.

What I don't like is the contrast to taking Letheras-the soldiers there were demoralised, confused and outnumbered. Yet they lost about 300 marines (because before they had 800, and it says 500 when the Adjunct rides in). Iffy.

[HoosierDaddy]

They might be demoralized.... but outnumbered? In their own capital?

[Aptorian]

Ain't_It_Just_, on Jun 27 2009, 04:17 AM, said:

Yet they lost about 300 marines (because before they had 800, and it says 500 when the Adjunct rides in). Iffy.

What? Where did you get this from?

You're saying 500 marines ended up dying in the end?

[HoosierDaddy]

Yes, he is... and his quote is accurate but a bit inaccurate on the whole. Several squads are with Hellian getting drunk. Fiddler has his and Gesler's storming the palace, and the Adjunct kept some marines with her, obviously.

The quote is from page 888 UK Trade Paperback version.

[Aptorian]

So 300 marines died storming the city. That's terrible.

[HoosierDaddy]

I think quite a bit actually died before they got to the city.... Anyways, yes, big losses despite having SNUCK into the city. If, however, you view the reasons as to why they were successful for so long, it would make sense that they take an absolute mauling once those advantages are removed.

[Ain't_It_Just_]

I just hope they don't get thrown into hell again, because they don't have the numbers. It'd be an interesting situation, though.

[T'renn]

Next up: Asail (I think)

Let's see how they will manage that (on the other hand they have an extra High Mage (who is possibly capable of summoning Tays) and an ascendant Bridge Burner + the Purified Marines(don't know to what extend that will help though))

[HoosierDaddy]

Not Assail. Assail is an ICE continent.

[beru]

Spoiler

seems like next=hell / KCCM

dod prologe

[Night Hawk]

Guerrila tactics are good like that my friend. They used stealth, equipment (including magic) and skills at their disposal that the Edur were not familiar with. These tactics gave them the upper hand

[Kryphon]

Night Hawk, on Jun 27 2009, 11:17 AM, said:

Guerrila tactics are good like that my friend. They used stealth, equipment (including magic) and skills at their disposal that the Edur were not familiar with. These tactics gave them the upper hand

See also: Navy Seals

[D'rek]

HoosierDaddy, on Jun 27 2009, 02:21 AM, said:

I think quite a bit actually died before they got to the city.... Anyways, yes, big losses despite having SNUCK into the city. If, however, you view the reasons as to why they were successful for so long, it would make sense that they take an absolute mauling once those advantages are removed.

I wouldn't really say snuck into the city... yes a couple squads went through the tunnel and secured the gatehouse, but as we see from the Adjunt arriving they were (at that point anyway) mostly fighting just inside the wide-open gates.

I think the scene where Corabb sniper-crossbows a Letheri commander shows pretty well how many soldiers there were in Letheras and that though they might have been somewhat demoralized, they were still rallying in large numbers and in an organized manner.