[Excellence]

Apt pretty much said it spot on. The Malazan mages were concealing their movements, and doing a damn good job of it. The marines were just a small strike force. Sent to probe the defenses. Fast travel, quick strikes. It's only when they got too deep into enemy territory that opposing numbers became a problem. Then they had to make a stand.

[Seras]

i remember reading about the Awl fighting against the Letherii, and the Letherii having most of their army wiped out, i mean Redmask did have his K'Chain Che'Malle to take care of the mages and whatnot but the Awl seemed like over-confident savages (like how their calvalry charged and ended up getting slaughtered by the Letherii calvalry despite Redmask's orders) and poorly equiped ones at that. I'm just thinking maybe the Letherii/Edur just aren't that great without their magic

This post has been edited by Erayle: 09 July 2009 - 11:24 PM

[Silencer]

They did come to rely a lot on the support of the Crippled God, and the Letherii prior to that had the magic of the Empty Hold that they were over-confidant in. It leads to reduced efficiency in normal tactics, and I think that was explained in Midnight Tides - the Letherii were pretty pathetic when their magic was negated.

But if you consider what the Bonehunters already went through - Y'Ghatan, they lost about 2000 troops of the entire 14th in order to defeat Leoman's few hundred fanatics. That's a huge loss. Would having another massive slaughter have been interesting reading? They needed to do something and do it reasonably well but with losses, and that was the marine invasion.

More to the point, we're talking a wide spread - the marines were isolated, so if one squad loses three people, they are nearly out of action. Whereas the Letherii are in much larger supply, as are the Edur, and so the Malazans needed a high kill/death ratio to get anywhere...if they took more losses they would be totally screwed long before they reached Lether. So that needs to be kept in consideration. Plus their tactics, magic, and equipment were all huge helps.

[HoosierDaddy]

To be fair, Silencer, we didn't really see any of the regular Letherii forces in an arrayed order of battle because of Edur sneak attacks and magic. In fact, the only battle where we haven't seen them getting surprised is the second battle against the Awl, where they maul them.

[Silencer]

No, they had a full battle against the Letherii in MT - the one around that fort, with the demons. The Prince and Queen of Lether got captured in it.

[HoosierDaddy]

Fort Drene, perhaps. There was surprise there, warrened demons straight into the midst of their forces. But, it is the next closest, I would think.

[Silencer]

Certainly, but it shows the way that both Letherii and Edur warfare was becoming more dependant on magic, and less on actual fighting - that's where you then get the massive mage battle in MT, which shows the complete irrelevance of soldiers. And so they are not the best fighting force in the world at the time of the Malazan assault. That, coupled with clever tactics and such on the Malazan's part, is why they were able to seriously damage them, until the Edur reverted to what they knew, no longer relying on the magic.

[HoosierDaddy]

Well, I can kind of see your point there, that an over reliance on magic would make them less balanced and vulnerable. However, I'm thinking that the Malazan usage of warren instead of hold magic that the Letherii used absolutely was the biggest difference. If their magic had worked, that invasion fails horrifically. Therefore, reliance on magic wasn't their undoing, it was a reliance on the wrong type of magic.

[Silencer]

XD

True, but that's what I was saying earlier - the Letherii had their Empty Hold magic, and once that was no longer viable (CG/Emurlahn magic > Empty Hold magic), they are screwed. And once Warrens show up and make both types obsolete, well...you can see where that goes, right? You either need to brush up on your old combat skills, and make the fight more about soldiers again (plus tactics), or you get your ass handed to you. Warrens + Marines > Hold Magic.
Warrens + Marines < Edur thinking properly, due to numbers. *shrug*

[D'rek]

Silencer, on Jul 9 2009, 09:41 PM, said:

XD

True, but that's what I was saying earlier - the Letherii had their Empty Hold magic, and once that was no longer viable (CG/Emurlahn magic > Empty Hold magic), they are screwed. And once Warrens show up and make both types obsolete, well...you can see where that goes, right? You either need to brush up on your old combat skills, and make the fight more about soldiers again (plus tactics), or you get your ass handed to you. Warrens + Marines > Hold Magic.
Warrens + Marines < Edur thinking properly, due to numbers. *shrug*

Yeah, Drene had some non-magic fighting on Tomad and Binadas' side of the battle, they and some Jheck engaged the Letheri themselves, but the rest of it was just hurricanes sucking up Letheri soldiers.

There is also the 14th's landing against the Letheri army outside Letheras, but we only got a short description of that one. And there was munitions and Sinn involved while the Letheri had no magic at all. They seem somewhat competent though, just not nearly as good as the 14th.

The other bit is that with the Awl campaign the Letheri armies were moving about against the enemies, never quite certain of where they'd be fighting. This is a big diffference from the Edur invasion and the marines' camapaign, where the locations were known so the mages would prepare big rituals at the locations ahead of time. With the Awl campaign, they weren't staying in a single place awaiting the enemy and so couldn't do big prepared rituals the same way, and I think this lead to much more seasoned soldiers and much lower-key usage of the mages over the years.

[T'renn]

Yes, but then again, it was also like the city itself was waging war on the Letherii army, a fullscale civil revolt was underway thanks to the economic collapse.

Also an army was already drawn out AND destroyed, leaving the soldiers in Lether much more spread.

[Abyss]

So the debate is whether the Malazan Marine campaign through Leth to the capital over-did the marines.

I fall on the side that says 'no'. I actually thought SE did an excellent job with this plotline and it was one of the best in the book.

THE MALAZAN MARINES ARE STUPID - No, the marines are characters, they're eccentric, many of them are uneducated and unsophisticated, but one of the bits we've been told since the beginning is Malazan soldiers, and especially Marines, are extremely well trained, and trained to think. Look back at Paran chatting with either Antsy or Maybe at the Bhargast camp in MoI - Paran, thinking outloud, mentions he should kill the messenger, and the 'stupid' marine (and he did come across initially as astupid) casually mentions he killed the last officer who pissed him off. and Paran notes that even the least of the soldiers are lethal. So sure, some of the conversations make them look like bumbling idiots, but virtually every time we see Malazan soldiers in deep shit, they fight really, really well. even Balm, who freaks out regularly before battles, is very competent even when he forgets who he's fighting, and where. Throw in that the most of the marines were veterans of 7C and you have a serious fighting force there.

THE LETHERII/EDUR HAD AN ADVANTAGE - The Letherii themselves were conquered, occupied and fighting for an Edur Emperor they know is insane, so no kidding, their hearts aren't exactly in it. The Edur were caught by surprise by the warren magic, the malazan tctics, the corssbows, the munitions, superior armour and weapons, etc. Even so, as people note upthread, they still killed a fair number of Marines. We even see a few squads get wiped out. naturally the focus is in the ones who survive, and particularly Fid, Balm and Hellian's squads. Hellian stumbles on a the tactic of killing the money-lenders and more or less has a free pass most of the way. Also, the number of dark skinned Dal Honese gave the marines a slight advanatge, as initially the Edur freak out, thinking they are Andii (nice bit, that). And finally, the Letherii had been fighting more or less the same way for generations. The Malazans were very outside what they knew how to deal with.

FID'S SQUAD GOT THRU INTACT - Actually, they lost Uru Hela to the Kenyrylah demon farmer.

LOSSES AT LETH CITY - Yes, but consider that 800 or so, outnumbered about 3-1 took an entire city without waiting for the rest of the Adjunct's army to show up.

EDUR/CG MAGIC KICKS ASS - it does kill really well, but it also kills on both sides and kills the mage using it. Plus the rituals need longer than warren magic. Hold magic and chaos are blunt instruments. Warrens are more subtle, less brute strength, more specific effect. The main malazan advantage initialy was that the Leth/Edur didn't know what they were dealing with.

- Abyss, boo-yah!

[D'rek]

Abyss, on Jul 10 2009, 09:05 AM, said:

So the debate is whether the Malazan Marine campaign through Leth to the capital over-did the marines.

I fall on the side that says 'no'. I actually thought SE did an excellent job with this plotline and it was one of the best in the book.

THE MALAZAN MARINES ARE STUPID - No, the marines are characters, they're eccentric, many of them are uneducated and unsophisticated, but one of the bits we've been told since the beginning is Malazan soldiers, and especially Marines, are extremely well trained, and trained to think. Look back at Paran chatting with either Antsy or Maybe at the Bhargast camp in MoI - Paran, thinking outloud, mentions he should kill the messenger, and the 'stupid' marine (and he did come across initially as astupid) casually mentions he killed the last officer who pissed him off. and Paran notes that even the least of the soldiers are lethal. So sure, some of the conversations make them look like bumbling idiots, but virtually every time we see Malazan soldiers in deep shit, they fight really, really well. even Balm, who freaks out regularly before battles, is very competent even when he forgets who he's fighting, and where. Throw in that the most of the marines were veterans of 7C and you have a serious fighting force there.

THE LETHERII/EDUR HAD AN ADVANTAGE - The Letherii themselves were conquered, occupied and fighting for an Edur Emperor they know is insane, so no kidding, their hearts aren't exactly in it. The Edur were caught by surprise by the warren magic, the malazan tctics, the corssbows, the munitions, superior armour and weapons, etc. Even so, as people note upthread, they still killed a fair number of Marines. We even see a few squads get wiped out. naturally the focus is in the ones who survive, and particularly Fid, Balm and Hellian's squads. Hellian stumbles on a the tactic of killing the money-lenders and more or less has a free pass most of the way. Also, the number of dark skinned Dal Honese gave the marines a slight advanatge, as initially the Edur freak out, thinking they are Andii (nice bit, that). And finally, the Letherii had been fighting more or less the same way for generations. The Malazans were very outside what they knew how to deal with.

I agree with all this. The Paran-and-sapper bit is a good example, but it wasn't Maybe (he's in the 14th). Might've been Runter or Aimless, can't recall.

Abyss, on Jul 10 2009, 09:05 AM, said:

FID'S SQUAD GOT THRU INTACT - Actually, they lost Uru Hela to the Kenyrylah demon farmer.

Uru Hela was from Gesler's squad, but they were grouped. Fid's squad itself still came through completely unscathed, though, but I guess the author doesn't want to part with any of their perspectives just yet (though Tarr did jack-all in this one, probably cause Stormy did all the Tarr-like things instead).

Abyss, on Jul 10 2009, 09:05 AM, said:

LOSSES AT LETH CITY - Yes, but consider that 800 or so, outnumbered about 3-1 took an entire city without waiting for the rest of the Adjunct's army to show up.

I dunno, by my impression they were getting mauled at the gates when the Adjunct showed up (which'd be why they sent a rider with all haste to bring up the rest of the army)

Abyss, on Jul 10 2009, 09:05 AM, said:

EDUR/CG MAGIC KICKS ASS - it does kill really well, but it also kills on both sides and kills the mage using it. Plus the rituals need longer than warren magic. Hold magic and chaos are blunt instruments. Warrens are more subtle, less brute strength, more specific effect. The main malazan advantage initialy was that the Leth/Edur didn't know what they were dealing with.

Yup, it's great for making a giant ritual to trap the marines when they show up at the capital, but the Hold mages aren't nearly as good as the warren ones in spur-of-the-moment close-quarter fighting, either from the magic type itself or just their own inexperience with calling their magic up so quickly.


D'rek, could also say they lost Saltlick every time he teleported back to Hellian's squad...

[coltainereborn]

I think the marine invasion was showing the phrase "the best plans last until the first shot" kind of thing. Originally, the marines were only supposed to target the Edur, they thought that the Letheri would rise up and help oust their opressors, and I'm sure Tavore envisioned a Letheri army recruited from the countryside, helping the marines by the time they reaced the capital. They were not there long before they found out that wouldn't be happening. So tactics changed, and the marines were on their own fighting both Edur and Letheri forces.
It was funny that the only person to pull off the original plan(kind of) was Hellian's squad, not by killing off Letheri military command, but by finding the money-lenders and crooked town leaders and taking their heads, so that the town-folk would feel indebted(hah, no pun intended) to them and not rat them out. This works well as long as you keep moving. It also helps reinforce the idea that it was not Letheri military might in charge, but economic power that ran, and was the true tyrant of Lether.

TTH spoiler

Spoiler

It is interesting to me that the conversation between Spindle?? and the deserted marine in black coral mirror this in some way. They are talking about how Kellanved trained them to not just follow orders, but to try to do the right thing. and they actually use as an example, taking out the ruthless leadership of a village

[Seras]

coltainereborn, on Jul 10 2009, 08:07 AM, said:

I think the marine invasion was showing the phrase "the best plans last until the first shot" kind of thing. Originally, the marines were only supposed to target the Edur, they thought that the Letheri would rise up and help oust their opressors, and I'm sure Tavore envisioned a Letheri army recruited from the countryside, helping the marines by the time they reaced the capital. They were not there long before they found out that wouldn't be happening. So tactics changed, and the marines were on their own fighting both Edur and Letheri forces.
It was funny that the only person to pull off the original plan(kind of) was Hellian's squad, not by killing off Letheri military command, but by finding the money-lenders and crooked town leaders and taking their heads, so that the town-folk would feel indebted(hah, no pun intended) to them and not rat them out. This works well as long as you keep moving. It also helps reinforce the idea that it was not Letheri military might in charge, but economic power that ran, and was the true tyrant of Lether.

TTH spoiler

Spoiler

It is interesting to me that the conversation between Spindle?? and the deserted marine in black coral mirror this in some way. They are talking about how Kellanved trained them to not just follow orders, but to try to do the right thing. and they actually use as an example, taking out the ruthless leadership of a village

it's a shame we didn't get to see what would have happened if Tehol & Bugg's plan actually worked seeing as he was beat up by the Edur ectr, it might've affected the war dramatically

Spoiler

also it was daseem who gave that speech

[Ain't_It_Just_]

Erayle, on Jul 12 2009, 03:57 AM, said:

coltainereborn, on Jul 10 2009, 08:07 AM, said:

I think the marine invasion was showing the phrase "the best plans last until the first shot" kind of thing. Originally, the marines were only supposed to target the Edur, they thought that the Letheri would rise up and help oust their opressors, and I'm sure Tavore envisioned a Letheri army recruited from the countryside, helping the marines by the time they reaced the capital. They were not there long before they found out that wouldn't be happening. So tactics changed, and the marines were on their own fighting both Edur and Letheri forces.
It was funny that the only person to pull off the original plan(kind of) was Hellian's squad, not by killing off Letheri military command, but by finding the money-lenders and crooked town leaders and taking their heads, so that the town-folk would feel indebted(hah, no pun intended) to them and not rat them out. This works well as long as you keep moving. It also helps reinforce the idea that it was not Letheri military might in charge, but economic power that ran, and was the true tyrant of Lether.

TTH spoiler

Spoiler

It is interesting to me that the conversation between Spindle?? and the deserted marine in black coral mirror this in some way. They are talking about how Kellanved trained them to not just follow orders, but to try to do the right thing. and they actually use as an example, taking out the ruthless leadership of a village

it's a shame we didn't get to see what would have happened if Tehol & Bugg's plan actually worked seeing as he was beat up by the Edur ectr, it might've affected the war dramatically

Spoiler

also it was daseem who gave that speech

Spoiler

I remembered that speech. Very moving/

The general standard of the Malazan military is formidable. I think they have better training, to be honest. The Letherii system of Inedbtness throws a lot of unwilling participants into the ranks, and their equipment is superior too (crossbows and armour).