[Yellow]

I've been having a lot of fun recently, building up a city for my WIP. This city has existed on a map for my previous WIP for about 5 years, but all it had was a name and a geographical location. This was a pretty poor state of affairs, considering it was a capital city in one of the biggest countries in the world! In my defence though, it never appeared in the first WIP... but it's now a major setting in the new one.

So, I started with a map of the country I made a few years ago and decided on the size and shape. This was easy enough, although I tend to obsess over whether it looks "real". The next thing I did was put in roads and rivers, other landmarks and regions.

This bit was very painful, as I have no idea what a real river looks like. I looked at maps to try and get this right, and I even tried to use an existing city (Manchester) as a blueprint, and build over the top of it, but that just didn't seem to fit the feel of the place at all. In the end, I kind of just compromised on this one and decided not to worry too much about it. If Jordan can get away with mountain ranges in tight right-angles to each other, I can get away with a dodgy river

The next bit was the most fun. I started putting in bridges and giving them names. This led me on to wondering how (or why) they got these names, and immediately I began to see the place in my mind. I started to note down which bridges were made first, and why the city needed them at the time, or what they did before that. From this, districts began to build up in accordance with this little potted history. There's a harbour in there, and the city centre has the political real estate. The wealthy areas tended to congregate around that... and once I'd decided that the old city walls had fallen down sometime in the past, I was able to put in some suburbs on the outskirts. The poor districts screamed out at me around about this time. They have no commerce, no transport links, no rural areas, etc.

By this point I'm loving it. I've started to work on the society. Obviously, this bit will take the most time and effort, but so far it's not been an effort at all. I have enough to actually write my story in this city, which is what I've started. Details are coming all the time, so it's nice to slip these in as I go and I think it's giving a rich feel to the place.

I have a sketch of the place (it's about 4cm by 4cm ) but no scanner atm--a few months ago I threw my scanner away, thinking, "what the hell do I need this old thing for?"--but once I get a new one (hurrah! an excuse for a new scanner), I'll post up a snap.

Does anyone do the same sort of thing, or something different? Just wondering how this sort of thing fits in with your writing. I know the urge to worldbuild at the expense of actually working is all too powerful sometimes. How far do you get before you feel comfortable with writing a story set in that place? Or do you just wing it?

[Fist Gamet]

Sounds quite similar to what I have done with my villages, towns and cities. For me, I stumbled upon some book (sorry, don't recall it's name or source) that talked about the practical reasons why permanent settlements actually occured and what exactly was required in order for them to grow and survive.

So, I go back to the early history of my world and kinda vaguely chart the flow of humans across the lands. Now, my humans (for the sake of ease), having freed themselves from a global enslavement by another species, became fractured and lost, then began to wander. So most of them entered a hunter/gatherer existence (and to this day, many remain so) but a number of them spread far and settled (mainly in the already ancient sites of their one-time masters) in permanent sites.
What did they need, these early men?
- Arable land, a good water source, rich food sources to fish and hunt to supplement their crops and so on...so, the settlement begins life on a river (supplies water, fish and easy transport, as well as a protected flank) and the people start to build the structures they need for survival - a central meeting place, perhaps fortified, a wall to keep out wild animals and bandits, homes, food stores, a miller, and so on but perhaps most industry remains cottage industry.
- We fast forwards and consider if they are in a geographical position to allow trade to flourish with other such settlements, and then we need to think of the local resources they could export, and the stuff they need back in return...the town grows, becomes prosperous...they are ruled by growing aristocracy / wealthy...they build temples and have priests...the town grows...

In a round-about answer, I can now chart the historical growth quite quickly, and how the old town grew around the docks, then the town grew beyond the oldest walls, perhaps re-used most of the building materials to expand, placed the meeting halls, residences of the wealthy and the priests (who don't want to live alongside the commoners anymore) in more exclusive estates (usually higher, if they can, to escape the stink and crowds of humanity)...

- Then to the bridges...maybe the work of an enlightened patron or merchant early on to connect to lucrative caravans form across the water? Perhaps the later natural extension of a growing society (the building of monumental structures)


This is the basic idea that I can expand or play with in any way, but the point is that my city designs actually start to make sense, and the history and culture and geography all serve as plot elements for my stories.

Ta da!

[Sixty]

What I did was establish my world map, then build cities at reasonable locations for society to flourish: at a crossroads with other roads, at a good location for a harbor, or alongside a river. Then I came up with a very very general idea of its geography in consideration of its position, then made up a very basic backstory. And at that point, I'm pretty much all set. I find that I don't worry much about setting at all--maybe a couple paragraphs to set the mood and the basic scenery, but little more.

Although for a major bridge where a good six or seven chapters in my WIP take place, I drew out the bridge and its proportions to be safe and make sure everything made sense.

[Yellow]

Any of you guys have maps you want to share? I'll do that as soon as I can buy a new scanner

[Sixty]

I posted a world map in that thread a while back...I think I'll scan and clean up a map of that bridge eventually though. Probably within the week; I've been putting it off for a while.

[Fist Gamet]

My World Map would be too big for posting here, though I could post sections of it, and I have a couple of city maps scanned (most exist only in my head!), but seeing what others have done is always fascinating.

[Bauchelain the Evil]

In my WiP cities are mostly on the borders of the various provinces that make the empire. That's because when all these provinces were actual States there were lots of tensons and so many fortresses were build on the borders. When the Empire was created there was no need for fortresses and so those place that had already become a place for many people to live became true cities. And that's why the most imprtant cities have those locations, with the exception of portual cities and the capital that of course is at the center of the Empire to better control the expansion.

[T'renn]

Then what keeps the economy in such farflung places going ?

I myself am a bit dabbling in writing, and its about a multiracial empire, a bit steampunk, thats spreading across the planets through gates left by one of the ancient races. I'm currently busy with a planet which was scorched by the war between the Gods. Its desolate, and the people can only live in magically created domes for most of it. There are 5 cities on my map, two porttowns, one ate the Gate, one at the important mining area and one at a Quarry for basalt. The population are mostly those who are condemned to manual labour, food is mostly brought through the gate, since a planet covered in ashes cannot sustain these plants, only a few kinds of moss and fungi are able to survive on the rest of the planet. There were other cities but they've been immolated. The ruïns are still there though. They're used for military training, or are part of an archeological dig.

The city in which I set the story is the city containing the gate. The city is crossed by a river. South of that is the innercity where the Citadel, the military headquarters, the temples, the bureaucracy and the merchants can be found. On the northern riverbank, the wizards imprisoned on this world have founded an enclave and subsequently walled it. Outside of that its mostly slums where the prisoners live and work, till the time their set free. There can also be found magistrate offices, smaller temples, citywatch barracks, wrestlingrings, markets and bars and so on. The cities economy is mainly founded on transporting raw resources by rail, ship or airship, from the other cities to the gate, or producing other stuff from those resources.

This post has been edited by Imperial High Mage Tayschrenn: 21 June 2009 - 06:58 AM

[RangerSG]

Realistically, Medieval cities were built for one of 2 reasons.

1) They were on a trade route. Crossroads, river system, or a good natural harbor. London, Lyon, Amsterdam, Hamburg; all figured majorly this way.

2) They were eminently defensible positions. This was more true in the medieval era. The lord would see someplace good for a castle, build it there, and then move as much of a city around him as he needed (at least). Lots and lots of cities that had "golden ages" in the early Renaissance fit this profile. Rome is perhaps the best example. Great defensive position, and then it was built into a type 1 by the Empire as well.

So when I draw a world map, I always think in terms of; "Why would someone want a city or fortress here?" You didn't build giant cities and put them on the frontier. That was a great way to lose most of your realm's population off the top. The Romans built massive border fortifications. Or they put a fortress at a pass near a key location, which often grew into a type 2 city. But your city locations have to make sense. Why would this city be profitable? How would it get food? Who would willingly move to it and why?

I like to use AutoRealm to draw my maps. It's not a perfect program. But it's great for Freeware. I try to imagine the geopolitical situation I'm trying to create and then draw a map that matches it. Then I arrange the cities to fit the historical profiles. The largest, most powerful cities, will almost always be both 1&2. Even most towns I'll put in are along some kind of road system. Easy to imagine wanting a town at least close enough to service the troops every 3 days or so. A town can exist with more minimal infrastructure. But a city needs at least to be able to get enough trade to be viable in its own right.

This post has been edited by RangerSG: 22 June 2009 - 04:05 PM

[T'renn]

Hm, to have a Fortress grow to town size, it have to be the centre of a rather big feudal domain, be on a very, very important place, or happen to be on a trade route.

[Aptorian]

Hmm. I am tempted to type out the histories of various capitals, historical cities, fortresses, etc. of the world I'm working on... but there's so much, and half of it will probably sound silly because I haven't bothered putting their story down in a coherent fashion-

[RangerSG]

Imperial High Mage Tayschrenn, on Jun 22 2009, 04:26 AM, said:

Hm, to have a Fortress grow to town size, it have to be the centre of a rather big feudal domain, be on a very, very important place, or happen to be on a trade route.

Agreed. But as with Rome, once you've established a capital there, you can rearrange trade routes some to suit your taste. Even if that's a Duke's seat, he can still have some pull on where the roads go in his Duchy. Like with York, it won't make a huge city, but it'll make it big enough to matter. That said, it's rarely as big, or as long lasting, as a Type 1 city which has natural advantages going for it.

[T'renn]

Yes, because said Duke makes the circumstances better i.e. makes traderoutes go through the city, by planning the right roads

[Fist Gamet]

In terms of later development for large empires, you could use the example of the later Roman Empire where the Imperial capital was actually relocated away from Rome because it made more geographical and political sense - it remained the symbolic capital. For admininstrative purposes, Milan, Trier, Antioch and Constantinople became more important. So there are many reasons why towns and cities grow and exist (and also die out) but they all need to make sense.

[RangerSG]

Fist Gamet, on Jun 23 2009, 11:55 AM, said:

In terms of later development for large empires, you could use the example of the later Roman Empire where the Imperial capital was actually relocated away from Rome because it made more geographical and political sense - it remained the symbolic capital. For admininstrative purposes, Milan, Trier, Antioch and Constantinople became more important. So there are many reasons why towns and cities grow and exist (and also die out) but they all need to make sense.

I had a world where I had done that. There was the ancient capital, which was still used for coronations ceremonies and religious significance (like Aachen was to the Holy Roman Emperors because of its tie to Charlemagne). And then there was the functional capital, which was situated more in the heart of the realm on the center of all the trade routes with a river.

[T'renn]

Funny you mention the Holy Roman Empire, the Holy Roman Empire did have Aachen as the original capital, and most Rulers were crowned king of Germany there first (after the 1400's also de facto Holy Roman Emperor) before being crowned as Emperor by the pope. However, it was never really a seat of government and it is said the Empire was reigned from the saddle, as Emperors traveled through the various duchies, counties and bishoprics, to oversee the country. Famous Emperors like Otto the Great, Frederick I Barbarrossa and Rudolf von Habsburg travelled a lot of their time through a realm that encompassed modern Germany Austria Switzerland Chech republic (then Bohemia), the Netherlands, Belgium, Luxemburg and Slovenia, as well as parts of France(the eastern third, Poland, Italy (save the papal states at Frederick II's rule, he was also king of Southern Italy) Hungary Slowakia and Croatia. If there was any functional capital, it was Regensburg, where most of the Imperial Councils were held throughout the 1006-year existence of the Empire (starting with the coronation of Charlemagne in 800 AD and the disolvement by Napoleon in 1806 AD, who wanted the Imperial Crown for himself). Until the 30-years war the system of chosing Emperors had always assured a capable Emperor on the throne, who had the means to make his rule count, though some were focussed on their own interest, the so-called "Hausmacht", after Emperor Charles the 5th the Empire began to decline, though as the north and south of the Empire were divided by religious strife, bringing other European Powers on the battlefield, on the Empires soil, in the centre of the German parts of the Empire, causing almost 30 % of the population to die.

I think it is a great example of how diverse a realworld empire has been, and great inspiration for writing

This post has been edited by Imperial High Mage Tayschrenn: 24 June 2009 - 07:08 AM

[RangerSG]

Imperial High Mage Tayschrenn, on Jun 24 2009, 02:06 AM, said:

Funny you mention the Holy Roman Empire, the Holy Roman Empire did have Aachen as the original capital, and most Rulers were crowned king of Germany there first (after the 1400's also de facto Holy Roman Emperor) before being crowned as Emperor by the pope. However, it was never really a seat of government and it is said the Empire was reigned from the saddle, as Emperors traveled through the various duchies, counties and bishoprics, to oversee the country. Famous Emperors like Otto the Great, Frederick I Barbarrossa and Rudolf von Habsburg travelled a lot of their time through a realm that encompassed modern Germany Austria Switzerland Chech republic (then Bohemia), the Netherlands, Belgium, Luxemburg and Slovenia, as well as parts of France(the eastern third, Poland, Italy (save the papal states at Frederick II's rule, he was also king of Southern Italy) Hungary Slowakia and Croatia. If there was any functional capital, it was Regensburg, where most of the Imperial Councils were held throughout the 1006-year existence of the Empire (starting with the coronation of Charlemagne in 800 AD and the disolvement by Napoleon in 1806 AD, who wanted the Imperial Crown for himself). Until the 30-years war the system of chosing Emperors had always assured a capable Emperor on the throne, who had the means to make his rule count, though some were focussed on their own interest, the so-called "Hausmacht", after Emperor Charles the 5th the Empire began to decline, though as the north and south of the Empire were divided by religious strife, bringing other European Powers on the battlefield, on the Empires soil, in the centre of the German parts of the Empire, causing almost 30 % of the population to die.

I think it is a great example of how diverse a realworld empire has been, and great inspiration for writing

I agree, the HRE has fascinated me for years now. And the book I'm currently working on is an alternate history/fantasy which uses the 15yr war (aka The Long War) between the Hapsburgs and Ottomans over Hungary as its background. Think of it as a "near world" where Rudolf II's alchemists really are productive and the myths are often at least partially true. (Sorta like an urban fantasy meets alternate history.)

[Grand Goombah Graeld]

You guys have some really informative posts here. I've been using Autorealm for my world for a while and it's getting close, but I've still got a long way to go. Are there any links to world/continent/coutry/city maps you guys have done that I could peruse? Very inspirational thread, this.

[Aimless]

A lot of interesting posts here!

I'd like to present you with one of my favourite essays on the topic of worldbuilding:

http://www.sfwa.org/...ud-and-blunder/

It's a little old, but contains a number of points that I think all fantasists should consider when they build their worlds

cheers

[Grand Goombah Graeld]

I didn't know an Aimless person could provide a good link! Thanks.