[redJAKO]

I searched around a bit..but came up empty.

So Kilava is Ono's T'oolan, Tool, the First Swords, sister, unchained by the ritual of the T'Lan Imass.

At the end of HoC, the Goddess is being described, and seems to echo ENTIRELY Kilava's past...but its NOT Kilava, as Kilava is always running around somewhere messing people and Jaghut children up as a giant Panther (as in, MoI, including assisting Treach in ascendance).

I'm NOW confused as to what they were trying to portray, who, the Goddess as, as they stated, the Goddess is a T'lan Imass spirit...thus:
(paperback, US, p.976+)

The goddess had not lost her memories. Indeed, rage had carved their likenesses, every detail, as mockingly soid and real-seeming as those carved trees in the forest of stone. And she could caress them, crooning her hatred like a lover's song, lingering with a touch of promising murder, though the one who had wronged her was, if not dead, then in a place that no longer mattered. [note here Erikson always talked about the Goddess as being utterly insane, which, is a 180degree turn, also annoying]
The hate was all that mattered now. Her fury at his weaknesses. Oh, others in the tribe played those games often enough. Bodies slipped through the furs from hut to hut when the stars fell into their summer alignment, and she herself had more than once spread her legs to another woman's husband, or an eager, clumsy youth. [sounds like Onrack]
But her heart had been given to the one man whith whom she lived. That law was sacrosact.
Oh, but he'd been so sensitive. His hands following his eyes in the fashioning of forbidden images of that other woman [Onrack again, is the T'lan Imass...his wife??], there in the hidden places. [CAVE paintings] He'd used those hands to close about his own heart, to give it to another - with-out a thought as to who had once held it for herself.
Another, who wouldn not even give her heart in return = she had seen to that, with vicious words and challenging accusaiotsiuon. Enough to encourage the tohers to banish her for ever.
But not before that bitch killed all but one of her kin...

Ahhh, rereading it, its as I figured above, the Imass' wife of Onrack?

This correct? She was bashed and battered, left in some place of eternal darkness, and slowly drew power...

I was just very confused thinking Erikson was talking about Kilava...
Mod edit: Watch for spoilers in thread titles please.....Bubba

[beru]

its onoraks wife, but i see how you can misinterpret that

[redJAKO]

Yeah, after posting it it made more sense and I was going to edit the topic title '

Edit: It does seem now however like a MoC'ism where the T'lan Imass would just ignore a rising threat like this, the whirlwind, a "soul" or something of Onrack's wife rising in power..even though Raraku can take care of itself, its not like the Imass are used to "allowing" things to be taken care of.

This post has been edited by redJAKO: 13 June 2009 - 11:58 PM

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

The Whirlwind Goddess was Onrack's wife. Her rage was fueled by Onrack betraying her by painting an image of Kilava (Onos T'oolan's sister) on a cave wall. The Imass believed that the image immortalized Kilava and that is why it was so offensive to Onrack's wife, I think it is also why she didn't partake in the T'lan ritual (not 100% on that one, she might have just run away before it).

[Aptorian]

redJAKO, on Jun 14 2009, 12:49 AM, said:

The goddess had not lost her memories. Indeed, rage had carved their likenesses, every detail, as mockingly soid and real-seeming as those carved trees in the forest of stone. And she could caress them, crooning her hatred like a lover's song, lingering with a touch of promising murder, though the one who had wronged her was, if not dead, then in a place that no longer mattered. [note here Erikson always talked about the Goddess as being utterly insane, which, is a 180degree turn, also annoying]

You don't think the mentally ill or dangerously obsessed can have a perfect memory? Just because you're insane doesn't make your memory faulty, some times its the opposite, being unable to forget is what drives the person nuts.

[Kruppe of Darujhistan]

Aptorian, on Jun 14 2009, 02:16 AM, said:

You don't think the mentally ill or dangerously obsessed can have a perfect memory? Just because you're insane doesn't make your memory faulty, some times its the opposite, being unable to forget is what drives the person nuts.

In this case though, Erikson had earlier described the Goddess as having forgotten the crime against her and only the hate it begat remained. And that the hate and desire for revenge was all out of proportion to the actual crime, bad as it was.

Now, here, he claims she hadn't forgotten anything and that all the details were as crisp and clear as if they had happened yesterday, and not 300,000 some-odd years ago.

She's going to visit her revenge on humans, the decendants of Kilava (as far as the Goddess is concerned, anyway), but it seems earlier it was a subconscious urge to inflict harm on humankind, and suddenly it's consciously aimed at humans for being the "spawn" of Onrack's and Kilava's adultery, which, as it happens, didn't occur physically until after Onrack was given the heave-ho by the Imass and his ex.

Which brings up why Onrack was included in the ritual to begin with, since his ousting was just before the ritual. Kilava chose not to participate, I didn't think Orack would even have the choice to be in on the Ritual if he wanted to.

This post has been edited by Kruppe of Darujhistan: 15 July 2009 - 11:22 PM

[D'rek]

Kruppe of Darujhistan, on Jul 15 2009, 07:16 PM, said:

Which brings up why Onrack was included in the ritual to begin with, since his ousting was just before the ritual. Kilava chose not to participate, I didn't think Orack would even have the choice to be in on the Ritual if he wanted to.

He was going to be exiled the night before(/of?) the Ritual and not included, but 4 Jaghut Tyrants allied together and attacked the Imass on 7C, so they didn't have time for the ceremony and just included him.

[foolio]

Quote

Which brings up why Onrack was included in the ritual to begin with, since his ousting was just before the ritual. Kilava chose not to participate, I didn't think Orack would even have the choice to be in on the Ritual if he wanted to.

In memories of ice it seems like she chose not to take part in the ritual becasue it was a terrible idea. But now in HOC we are given the idea that she could not have taken part because Onrack's picture "trapped her" as she was... Interesting.

[Mott]

When you get the whirlwind Goddess' story it starts, "The Goddess had not lost her memories." This made me think that the Goddess has always remembered the pain and betrayal which is backed up by the rest of the section detailing her history. It was said before that the Goddess had forgotten the reason for her hate and just wanted blood no matter whose it was...that seems only partly true in light on her story. She hadn't forgotten, we where only told from other characters points of view that it was a hatred so old the reason was forgotten, and sha'ik wasn't fully possessed by her, the Goddess seemed to have varying degrees of control over her so maybe she didn't know her memories and motivations. The part about wanting human blood indiscriminately would fit though because it doesn't matter what side they are on she still sees them as the product of betrayal and in that section she says, "The children will die." meaning to wipe them out when she rises.

It goes on to imply that Kilava could not join the ritual because she was expecting and that humankind would come about because of her. I suppose at first it would have been something like an Eres. In MoI it seemed to imply that the Barghast where descendants of the T'lan Imass. So I suppose it was a process of evolution to arrive at humans. Although i'm not sure i'm still a little confused over the Eres and their role.

"Of course she could not join the Ritual. A new world waited within her." Is what the goddess specifically says, referring to Kilava.

I got the impression from the prologue of MoI that Kilava had a general problem with what the T'lan Imass where doing, though. She seemed to be dissaproving of their crusade against the jaghut.

"You are all insane. To choose immortality for the sake of a war - madness. I shall defy the call, bonecaster." She then goes on to say that she slaughtered her family to break the link and thus acheive freedom but that her brother was an equal match for her and that though they where both free, he mourns this while she celebrates. The other bonecaster though alludes to seeing many layers of pain in her, a freedom he didn't envy. Unless being a bonecaster she had a vision of the race that she would birth and it's eminence in the world as I think that the Imass empire was by this point coming to an end. That might explain her pain if she did truly regret her actions and her subsequent isolation from her kind (as it says in Onracks story that separation was not approved of among the Imass). In the prologue of MoI it also aludes to her having recently birthed.

That's as much as I can reason it. I found after finishing HoC I had to give myself a couple of days to think on parts and went over a couple of passages. It's great that they are so open to interpretation.

[Red King]

AS far as I saw, and read (especially during the Epilogue) it for me clearly seemed like it was Onracks wife, before he was about to be excommunicated and drop kicked out of his tribe. But, then again, perspective is everything and as long as the perspectives vary, the only one who can really tell us what is what when it comes to questions like this, is SE himself. But, then again, speculation and arguing is more fun.

- Ultor