[Roldom]

was bored and saw this thread on page one so decided to dredge up the old argument in the hope to break the tedium

I am a pagan, and my main pet peeve is basically this

catholics don't want to be called protestants, or baptists and none of these want to be called or related to Mormons, but each of these faiths goes under the umbrella term of Christianity. you can go further back and show the link between Christianity, Hebrew and Islam, and i suppose satanism, but more on that in a minute.

the word pagan is an umbrella term for a whole host of different faiths, but unlike the faiths mentioned above which can all be traced back to the same being ( i generally refer to him as Jehovah) two pagans can have completely different belief systems, calling on different gods from different parts of the worlds. some pagans worship all of them, some pagans worship one or two. but when you refer to pagans as a believing in one similar thing, or pagans acting in a certain way your stereotyping something thats impossible to put in one box.

paganism now adays is just a term for countless smaller faiths lumped together. theres pagans who worship the earth, theres pagans who worship voodoo, theres even pagans that worship Lilith (who was Adams wife before eve)

even if you narrow the field down, for example, Wicca, what type of Wicca? eclectic? gardenerain? Alexandrian? and Even a group of gardenerian Wicans could individually worship different gods that they feel more comfortable with, ( though you would never get a gardenarian to talk about it)

personally i believe that most gods and Deity's exist, including Jehovah, my distinction is definition of the word deity. and i worship either the one who specializes in what ever i am currently doing, or the gods i feel closest to personally. (think like a serious version of the gods of the discworld and you basically got my beliefs)

now someone wrote before that pagans are more likely to perform animal or human sacrifice. now while i cant speak for all of paganism, in all my years of finding a path i have yet to find one that practices either. while those practices may have happened in the past they don't happen now, and if anyone says well they used to do it, i bet they still do, look to the bibles old testament. thats full of human and animal sacrifices to Jehovah, do Christians still go around doing that sort of thing? let the belief system that is without sin cast the first crusade

sorry for the ramble, but like i said, pet peeve.

now on to satanism,

having recently came out of a relationship with a satanist, i can pretty definitively say that while there are similarity's to certain pagan beliefs, they are not the same

now my ex did believe in Lucifer, and other demons, (these demons can be traced back to the gods of neighboring tribes, technically Satan was a god of a neighboring tribe at some date way back BC) and her belief system was basically do what ever you wish, but life is sacred. if someone pissed her off, she used her beliefs to get back at the protagonist. and yet she was a loving woman, with three kids, none of whom were pressured in anyway to accept her beliefs. she was happy letting them find there own path.

she didn't want them in Christian schools, but that was because of the dogmatic approach some Christians have towards to kids and conversion.

she was pretty much against Christianity, but personally i believe this was because of her strict parents and there beliefs which she rebelled against.

[FastBen]

Personally, I'm an atheist/agnostic. But, Satan/Lucifer as a myth is much more relatable than that of Jesus. Jesus is this perfect, paradoxical figure that is - both God and Man? If he was perfect then he had no moral struggle, and his crucifixion was meaningless. If he already knew he was the Son of God with certainty, there was no struggle of uncertainty either, that kind of uncertainty that men and women struggle with.

However, Lucifer is a human and tragic figure. His portrayal in Paradise Lost by John Milton portrays him as a critical thinker and rebel, who is the first to question the dogma set forth by the omniscient and perfect God - who punishes Adam and Eve after creating them, putting a tree in front of them, already knowing that they are going to eat it! Now, that is a kind of predetermined torture.

And if God created Lucifer then he also knew that Lucifer would rebel and fall. Which puts all the responsibility in God's hands. Don't give me all the free will nonsense - God's omniscience undermines free will and free will doesn't even make any sense in our modern worldview.

So, Lucifer is the ultimate tragic and human figure. I don't think I would worship God even if I knew he existed - its a pretty awful world he created (think of children suffering) but I do think if Lucifer existed he more worthy of worship.

[Roldom]

theres a quote i just read in DoD on my re read, with the girl mage from the snake badelle or something and shes talking about gods and why they dont answer prayers.

ill hunt the quote down later but basicly its saying that gods dont act to show there omniscient. If they answer a prayer than that means something needs correcting, so something is wrong, which means its not all down to some ineffible plan and that the gods are victims of chance just like the rest of us so the true power of gods is to do nothing

[King-of-Chains]

I used to be a Catholic, but that was a long time ago. I'm atheist now, but I have a reasonable grasp on several different religions.

So, is Satanism bad? Well it depends on who you ask. If you ask most Christians then they'll tell you it is wrong and evil. However, most Christians, as with many religious people, are ignorant of other religions because they believe their religion to be the correct religion, no exceptions. Ironically such people do not even have a firm grasp on understanding their own religion, so to ask the opinion of such people is rather pointless. I am sure there are informed individuals in any faith group, however those people are few and far between.

If you were to ask an atheist, or an agnostic then it would depend on a few things. One, their upbringing, most atheists and agnostics were, at one point religious. Secondly it depends on their own personal beliefs and understanding of Satanism. Personally I have nothing against satanism because it, in many ways, is far more moral and honest compared to many other religions out there. However, you always have to be wary of the crazy extremists, but those are found in every religion.

[Shadow of Shadowthrone]

So I've been (skim)reading this thread and it is quite an enjoyable read, with people arguing about Satan and God and darkness and hellfire and the glory of heaven and what have you.
It's like reading a discussion between Tolkien fanatics discussing Sauron and Iluvatar and the Dark Land of Mordor and the glory of the Elves and what have you
- only there are people who actually buy this biblical stuff - it's amazes me continually that religion has been allowed to stay rooted.

Edit:
A comment that I now see can be a bit weird in context with my current avatar lol. But the way metal bands like Behemoth treat Satan as a cartoony figure/symbol of freedom is entertaining, much like the Dark Lords of fantasy literature.

This post has been edited by Shadow of Shadowthrone: 04 April 2011 - 11:19 AM

[Aptorian]

Shadow of Shadowthrone, on 04 April 2011 - 11:01 AM, said:

- only there are people who actually buy this biblical stuff - it's amazes me continually that religion has been allowed to stay rooted.

First of all, there's a lot of (deeply) Religious regulars who hang around the forum, that kind of "tone" will not bring any kind of positive discussion to the table. Just a word of warning.

But I am not one of them so, well, please go on, I will get the popcorn out.

How ever, this biblical stuff, despite not being a believer I get a lot of it. The ideology, the virtues, the values. It's what Western civilization is built upon. Kindness, charity, humility, patience, etc. If the church had a revolution and it switched from being a religious faith to being a school of philosophy I believe it could do a lot more to rebuild its influence in our modern society.

As for being "allowed" to stay rooted, what do you want, a pogrom? Go back one generation and christianity was still deeply settled in Danish society. So I assume it was across the Western world, and in many countries it remains so. You can't just "not allow" faith. If anything that will feed it. If you tell your children that they can't believe in God they will build a church.

Just because there are bad sides of the religion doesn't mean that it is all bad. People need faith. When they lose their loved ones. When they lose their social footing. When life sucks. It helps to have something to believe in. To believe that things happen for a reason and the world isn't really as fucked up as it is.

[Shadow of Shadowthrone]

First of all, there's a lot of (deeply) Religious regulars who hang around the forum, that kind of "tone" will not bring any kind of positive discussion to the table. Just a word of warning.
I can see that the way I phrased myself could, possibly, offend a religious person. But then, people who claim they are religious offend my sensibilities so it goes both ways. This is a forum about religion, so no need to warn me, though, wherever there is religion there will be heat.
People can believe in Santa Claus for all I care as long as they accept that maybe they will have to take some (friendly) flak for it.

How ever, this biblical stuff, despite not being a believer I get a lot of it. The ideology, the virtues, the values. It's what Western civilization is built upon. Kindness, charity, humility, patience, etc. If the church had a revolution and it switched from being a religious faith to being a school of philosophy I believe it could do a lot more to rebuild its influence in our modern society.


Morale existed long before the Bible and continues to exist among people who do not read that particular book, so yes I see your point but at the same time I think the point is invalid since virtues and values exist independently of said curious volume of lore.

As for being "allowed" to stay rooted, what do you want, a pogrom?


Now that is a good question. Obviously, as a (relatively) humane person I would not want a "pogrom" (though it is interesting that certain people are locked up for "seeing" and "hearing" things). No, people who wish to think there is more - whether it is a divine, omnipotent being or ghosts or what have you. What could be done, though, and I am just thinking aloud here, was to stop having organized religion. At least state-sanctioned/supported religion. You know, let people believe what they will but don't reinforce it, so as to slowly get that foot out of the mud of the middle ages. People believe in astrology without the need for an organization; I know people who believe in UFOs and they don't need an organization (though they can, obviously, band together say on the Internet).


Just because there are bad sides of the religion doesn't mean that it is all bad. People need faith. When they lose their loved ones. When they lose their social footing. When life sucks. It helps to have something to believe in. To believe that things happen for a reason and the world isn't really as fucked up as it is.


Most of it is bad, though. Bad bad bad. People don't need faith, they are told they need faith. It helps to have something to believe in, I can agree with you on that, but it doesn't really matter whether you believe that things will be allright because you know it can't get any worse, or that there is an invisible man watching over you from yonder cloud. But, as I said, I am all for believing what you want. What offends me is that religion is accepted - and often enforced (religious upbringing) - while other "supernatural" experiences (for a lack of a better word) are ridiculed, dismissed, or disregarded as not serious.


As far as I know, religious people have no special rights that should protect them from offense/ridicule.

[Beezulbubba]

http://www.telegraph...lic-Church.html

To lighten the mood, I give you the stare from the darkest coals, forged in the pit of suffering.



If you listen closely, you can hear tortured souls howling in agony.

[FastBen]

Clockwork Apt, on 04 April 2011 - 07:44 PM, said:

Shadow of Shadowthrone, on 04 April 2011 - 11:01 AM, said:

- only there are people who actually buy this biblical stuff - it's amazes me continually that religion has been allowed to stay rooted.

Just because there are bad sides of the religion doesn't mean that it is all bad. People need faith. When they lose their loved ones. When they lose their social footing. When life sucks. It helps to have something to believe in. To believe that things happen for a reason and the world isn't really as fucked up as it is.

I respectfully disagree. Believing that you will see your loved ones again in another life is not really moving on. Also, I might have a delusional belief that I I am the messiah, that I have superpowers, or that I have 100 dollars in my wallet - these would make me feel better about my existence and my place in the world - but they are all false.

I've heard religious types argue that we should not pay attention to certain global issues because we should "leave it in God's hands." I think you have a responsibility as a human being to at least try to believe in true things with evidence so that we can somehow come to arrive at rational decisions.

Not to mention, religions are full of arbitrary beliefs that cause people lots of pain. I have a homosexual friend for example, who grew up tormented by his local church and his parents for who he was. The christian tendency of "pitying" people that don't live up to certain Christian expectations (most of which are full of hypocrisy anyways) is downright sickening.

I understand that religion helps people curb their fear of death, helps them stick dogmatically to certain moral codes (that are highly dubious and questionable) - but there are other ways to pursue these human goods. Religion is obviously a way that societies have used throughout history to make people be subservient and behave in a uniform manner - think - local tribal chief or budding king claims that he has special access and communicate with this divine being who holds certain transcendental truths who the people must follow under the threat of eternal damnation. This is just plain obvious.

This is away from the topic of the discussion. I just think that Lucifer, as a fictional character, is admirable for his ability to question authority. There is nothing admirable, IMO, about being a blind follower (all faith is is asking you to believe without evidence) - really the rebel figure in these fictional myths is the one I can empathize with most. Any God who would wish me to believe in him without evidence, and worship him because he happens to be divine, isn't a good worth worshiping, IMO. So, even the fact of the matter of his supposed existence is irrelevant.

[FastBen]

Roldom, on 11 March 2011 - 01:59 AM, said:

theres a quote i just read in DoD on my re read, with the girl mage from the snake badelle or something and shes talking about gods and why they dont answer prayers.

ill hunt the quote down later but basicly its saying that gods dont act to show there omniscient. If they answer a prayer than that means something needs correcting, so something is wrong, which means its not all down to some ineffible plan and that the gods are victims of chance just like the rest of us so the true power of gods is to do nothing

Yeah - this is called "The Problem of Evil" in philosophy of religion. If God is omniscient, all-good (omnibenevolent), and all-powerful (omnipotent) - then why do they not try to repair the suffering in an imperfect world? Well if God is all powerful but he doesn't help, then his omnibenevolence in question. However, if he is all-good, but doesn't help that suggests he is not actually omnipotent, or he doesn't have the power to do anything about it.

Critics of religion have used this as a way to suggest that the the concept of the Abrahamic monotheistic god is internally contradictory - but usually apologists for religion claim that is has something to do with human free will and that's what causes the "evil" in the world.

However, then, - you can ask - well if God created human beings than he is responsible for their actions since he created them with the power to do evil and knew that they would. You can also question whether or not human beings have free will at all (this is called the Problem of Free Will) because if God knows everything that is going to happen, then all human action is already fixed, and their ultimately are no human choices.

good fun finding this stuff in Erikson

[SpectreofEschaton]

I've always found something about the Lucifer myth to be somewhat romantic. Regardless of religious persuasion (I hedge the border of anti-theism) it's just powerful imagery. Of course, going deeper, it's a very problematic story, full of plot holes, but... at first glance, it's fairly resonant, regardless of which side of the fence you're on. (I have a hard time not seeing Lucifer as a victim, myself).

On the other debate, I have to admit I find it uncomfortable to be around deeply theistic people. Something about the disregard for this world and this life really troubles me. That kind of thinking leads to easily to extreme expressions. Of course, I'm not sure how many "believers" actually take it to that extent, honestly, since... I don't know about you, but I don't see (for instance) many Christians putting themselves constantly in potentially-life-threatening situations on the off chance that something completely beyond their control were to come along and deliver them to an early reward in Heaven.

And, sure, you can say that's selfish and un-Christian, but... the idea of Heavenly reward (though I question just how great that "reward" supposedly is) is one deeply ingrained in most Christian theologies I'm familiar with. The whole incentive plan to paradise idea makes me raise a questioning eyebrow to the entire thing.

On the other hand, Satanism (from what I'm familiar with) is either a pathetic cry for attention, an exercise in hedonism, nihilism, and anarchy that would produce a Darwinian civilization if it had the kind of cultural foothold Christianity does, or some kind of pseudo-mystical theatrical hobby for adults who have issues with the church.

I find it hard to take seriously. Sorry if that offends anyone, I've read the Satanic Bible and have a cursory knowledge of the other traditions, it just all seems too predicated on being reactionary, and for the sects that aren't, I suppose it's more of a matter of a fundamental disagreement with their philosophies. Again, sorry if being against might-makes-right, survival of the fittest, solipsistic hedonism is an offense to anyone here. Despite having a cynical view of human nature, I prefer to hold to some sense of solidarity.

Actually, come to think of it, the very moral relativism that Satanism puts forth stands in the way of anyone actually living a Satanically-virtuous life. Since, you know, majority rule morality says that... you can't go around crushing those weaker than you while only respecting the strong; you can't repay every slight a hundredfold and expect to get away with it. Even in a corporate or domestic sense, eventually a law is going to get broken, and the relative morality that has proven to produce a functioning society that benefits the most people prevails. (Don't read too much into that, not making a statement about the moral purity of jurisprudence there. Just that, in general, Satanic behavior (taken to it's logical endpoint) is anti-social to the current social paradigm that evolution has landed us.)

[Shadow of Shadowthrone]

owever, then, - you can ask - well if God created human beings than he is responsible for their actions since he created them with the power to do evil and knew that they would


Good post, and it illustrates well what I call the "Problem with Religion". Since they have no evidence they can pull shit out of thin air and use it for an explaination without a thought. Then, when someone reasonably enlightened comes around asking "why", they invent another excuse to back up the previous one and so on, and so on.


Ask someone who believes that god can heal the sick why he doesn't return limbs to amputees...

[Roldom]

shouldnt the question be why god decided to let the arm be removed in the first place?

main problems im having with this thread is that everytime you guys mention religon as a generality, you actually mainly talking about christian religion, or at least thats how it looks to me, and how their church acts in the world today. Now ignoring the fact that the message behind christianity is actually an a decent enough message to follow, I can understand why you have problems with the Christain church systems.

But theres no reason to throw all relgions into the same bag, as many religions are quite different

[Shadow of Shadowthrone]

I guess the reason why christianity in particular gets slammed is because that is the religion we've had to deal with on a daily basis as opposed to, say, hinduism which is half a world away (for me, anyway). It goes without saying that any system of gods/pantheon is just as silly and random as the next.

Ricky Gervais put it nicely in his somewhat infamous holiday message:

Quote

The dictionary definition of God is "a supernatural creator and overseer of the universe." Included in this definition are all deities, goddesses and supernatural beings. Since the beginning of recorded history, which is defined by the invention of writing by the Sumerians around 6,000 years ago, historians have cataloged over 3700 supernatural beings, of which 2870 can be considered deities.

So next time someone tells me they believe in God, I'll say "Oh which one? Zeus? Hades? Jupiter? Mars? Odin? Thor? Krishna? Vishnu? Ra?…" If they say "Just God. I only believe in the one God," I'll point out that they are nearly as atheistic as me. I don't believe in 2,870 gods, and they don't believe in 2,869.

This post has been edited by Shadow of Shadowthrone: 05 April 2011 - 06:27 AM

[worry]

Here's a good joke I just made up special for this thread:
Q: What's the best thing about being a Satanist?

Give up?

A: That little bit of earthly pleasure you feel right before burning in hellfire for all eternity.

[Shadow of Shadowthrone]

The joke is lost on me, since hellfire and punishment eternal is an invention, heheh. But yes, should one not take pleasure in earthly delights? The only existence we know of is the earthly one.

[Roldom]

Shadow of Shadowthrone, on 05 April 2011 - 06:26 AM, said:

it goes without saying that any system of gods/pantheon is just as silly and random as the next.

Excuse me? you can believe what ever you choose to believe in, and you can argue your beliefs as much as you like, but calling all beleif systems other than athiesm as silly and random is highly offensive

Im ridiculously tollerent ( technically i beleive in all 2870 gods i just define deity differently ) and very easy going, but that sentance is a little out of line

[Shadow of Shadowthrone]

Excuse me? you can believe what ever you choose to believe in, and you can argue your beliefs as much as you like, but calling all beleif systems other than athiesm as silly and random is highly offensive


What does "Highly offensive" mean though? Why should it be highly offensive?
There is no fairness in taking offense at it. I mean, if I claimed I believed in Santa Claus why should I take offense if someone else pointed out to me that the Santa doesn't really exist and is used to entertain the children? Should I not rather dive into the material and sort it out for myself, arriving (inevitably) to the conclusion that "okay, Santa does in fact not exist" (or I could choose to disregard the evidence and, maybe out of spite, continue to believe, though somewhere in my mind I would probably kind of know I was being silly).

And that is why I believe religious people are so quick to be offended - because they know, in their heart of hearts (to use a cliché), that they are just being silly. They see and hear how contradictory it all is, they probably realize that living a two-thousand year old book written for an entirely different society isn't very healthy, and religion continually has to back off whenever new evidence counters any of the weak arguments based on nothing.

Oh, and atheism isn't a belief system, it's applying science, logic and reason to find out things, to sate our natural curiosity about the world we live in, and building an understanding of said world. It is the lack of belief in gods - the omnipotent, all-seeing ones at any rate (we do believe in the existence of, say, thunder, though we do not attribute it to Thor with the hammer).

I am veering off-topic, I am sure there is a discussion about the pros and cons of religion here somewhere so I shall stay quiet now.
On topic: Satan ruuuulez

This post has been edited by Shadow of Shadowthrone: 05 April 2011 - 07:16 AM

[Roldom]

im sorry but thats ridiculous.

highly offensive means that not only did it bug me, it was annoying enough for me to make a comment.

its one thing to argue with someone constructivly, and another to say, "come on, your acting like an idiot, Its stupidly obvious how wrong you are"

Im going out on a lymb here and assuming youve never been deeply regious.

Look at the material, arrive at your own conclusions. Just because one thing makes sense to you, doesnt mean it makes sense to everybody.

Im pretty sure science has got it right about the creation of the universe so far, or at least is on the right track. but i fail to see where anything science has proved excludes the exsistence of a creator.

I assume when you mention a 2000 thousand year old book your talking about the bible, which again is limiting your argument to christians, not religions as a whole.

I dont need to rationalise my faith, there is no dogma, or set out belief system for me to follow. I choose how i wish to participate, and I look at the evidence and i can say with certainty that something beyond our ability to comprehend exists. Why cant that be divine?

[Roldom]

atheism is a relgious stand point, so even if you it is as you say, a lack of belief, it is still a relgious view point and belief system. You can't prove a denial just as we cant prove a positive