[Adjutant Stormy~]

So as frequently as the discussions in the Religion forum dart into the deep, dogmatic reaches of Christianity, the whole Jesus, God, et. al., what do people think of the other side?

Worship is merely a conscious choice to pick sides in an existential, moral conflict, so why not root for the bad guy? I mean, you take Christ's side, and you ostensibly strive for self-sacrifice, tolerance, and God's favor, and a trip to Heaven. That's all well documented. But the worship of the enemy, that's not really the PR department of the Church. So why not? Who's to say there aren't benefits?

Satanists, though a modern phenomenon, take their moral direction from the Bible, just from the less popular side. There are many satanist sects, just as there are many christian denominations, LaVeyan Satanists (The Church of Satan) even have their own bible.
There are theistic satanists, who actually regard Satan as their God of choice, and then there are the atheistic or agnostic satanists, that choose to use Satan's portrayal as a moral story. Reward one's friends, punish one's enemies, and be the weak, worldly human you were destined to be!

I'm curious to hear what the Religion board thinks about it. Is satanism inherently bad? Or is it just another form of worship? Is it better?

[Gothos]

well, strictly speaking, the serious satanic sects don't really worship. their focus is more about NOT following God's rules and being your own master and commander. at least that's the image of satanism I have right now and frankly it seems to me to be about as viable as christianity.
btw, satanic worship and animal sacrifices are for the ridiculously weak and dim witted

[Sindriss]

Sometimes I think satanism makes more sense than christianity. As far as I have understood, satanism centers around having the power yourself and being nice to your friends and say screw you to idiots. Which makes sense to me. The bad reputation probably comes from the church, which have slandered the opposition and started lies about them.

[Adjutant Stormy~]

A really good read is the list of religious groups that the Pope has declared to be worshippers of satan. It's really quite an impressive list, which I would link here if I were not at work. Satanism tends to reflect poorly on a public servant.

I think that the satanic dogma is very fascinating. It's all the give gifts to one's followers, and smite one's enemies of the Old Testament, without all the "now now, be good" of the New Testament.

This post has been edited by Adjutant Stormy: 15 June 2009 - 09:08 PM

[Aptorian]

I don't understand how you can believe in the devil, know what he is but still worship him. It's sort of like the heavy metal idiots who think that the devil and hell is about rock and roll, no rules, partying in the after life, with all the hookers and drugs you want, etc.

Satan isn't a nice guy, and he doesn't run a retirement home for the cool crowd. In hell there is only pain and misery, that's the whole point. Heaven is the nice place, hell is the bad place. Even if Satan was inclined to help people and grant wishes, the only reason he would be doing it would be to corrupt. It's his job, testing the mortals. Those that stand the test go to heaven, the other go to hell to get raped with a hot poker for the next bazillion years. There's not some middle ground or people getting off with a note from Satan.

You can't just suddenly say that you worship Satan because he is missunderstood and God is evil, bla. bla. There's not some loop hole in Christian dogma that claims that satan is a good guy (not in his current form of employment anyway) It's twisting the legacy of christianity, and if you're going to do that, you might as well skip right past Satanism to the pagan faiths like wicca and the norse gods. They more or less embody what satanists look for, only, pagans aren't usually out to overthrow society or burn churches.

This post has been edited by Aptorian: 15 June 2009 - 09:33 PM

[Obdigore]

Aptorian, on Jun 15 2009, 04:30 PM, said:

I don't understand how you can believe in the devil, know what he is but still worship him. It's sort of like the heavy metal idiots who think that the devil and hell is about rock and roll, no rules, partying in the after life, with all the hookers and drugs you want, etc.

Satan isn't a nice guy, and he doesn't run a retirement home for the cool crowd. In hell there is only pain and misery, that's the whole point. Heaven is the nice place, hell is the bad place. Even if Satan was inclined to help people and grant wishes, the only reason he would be doing it would be to corrupt. It's his job, testing the mortals. Those that stand the test go to heaven, the other go to hell to get raped with a hot poker for the next bazillion years.

You can't just suddenly say that you worship Satan becuase he is missunderstood and God is evil, bla. bla. There's not some loop hole in Christian dogma that claims that satan is a good guy. It's twisting the legacy of christianity, and if you're going to do that, you might as well skip right past Satanism to the pagan faiths like wicca and the norse gods. They more or less embody what satanists look for, only, pagans aren't usually out to overthrow socity or burn churches.

Of course, Christians certainly don't overthrow whole societies or burn places of worship... like mosques, do they?

Lets be Honest here Apt, there are very few large religious institutions that have not killed/degraded/attacks other people.

You also subscribe to the thought that 'hell' is what christians want you to think it is. An ex-roomate of mine was a practicing satanist for a while (or so he claimed), and his 'sects' belief was that in hell, you aren't tortured or anything if you were a satanist.

Trying hard not to get into the whole Bible and its contradicting statements here to disqualify your argument...

[Gothos]

@Aptorian - I'd prefer you'd do at least some skim-reading about the serious satanic groups and not give in to the pop-culture image given by retarted teenagers and certain metal bands (whose target audience are said retarted teenagers). try searching for LaVeyan satanism. it's like judging the christian faith by account of teleevangelists, fundamentalists and just simply stupid people.
also, on the notion of Hell, the hellfire and brimstone and pots of molten slag and whatnot, it's just stupid imagery added to scare children. the idea behind Hell is the absence of God.

This post has been edited by Gothos: 15 June 2009 - 09:49 PM

[Darkwatch]

I read the official Church of Satan Doctrine years ago.
From what they were saying apparently they're about celebrating the life that is instead of worrying about the after life.
So they're against all forms of sacrifice (animal or human as it hurts life) they promote sexuality because it's the body's natural way of getting high and they discourage drugs.
I guess they worship Satan not as an evil being but as simply the rebel against God that they see as a repressor of mankind.

That's all I remember.

Of course this is the official Church, not all those small sects that may or may not be completely insane, like the WBC.

[Aptorian]

I guess, as always, I'm just projecting my own opinions, but I would theories that the satanic crowd are far more inclined to be the angry, violent kind, compared to the likes of Pagans. My point would be that if you worship satan, would you not have to opposed to the church? God and the church would be the evil oppresors, and as such if you were a fanatic satanist... it's the churches that go first

But are there parts of the bible, or related text, that speak of a heaven for satanists?

Honestly, it can only be theoretic debate, but I would argue that any notion of there being a nice home waiting for satanists when they die, would be impossible.

In fact if that was possible, you could begin to argue that it would go against the whole notion of good and evil and the struggle beteen heaven and hell. Satan could circumnavigate the whole business and just make hell into his own paradise, stop torturing people and suddenly it doesn't really matter if anyone is good or bad. This to me doesn't make sense, Christianity, is based on the fact that God made a design. It's Gods will that the wicked be punished. It's what the devil does. That's just the way it is.(I'm sure some bible readers is going to pop in and make this complicated now)

If as a Satanist, you believe something else than the above, I would argue that you are worshipping a whole different religious universe that doesn't have a real connection with christianity.

EDIT:

Gothos, on Jun 15 2009, 11:47 PM, said:

@Aptorian - I'd prefer you'd do at least some skim-reading about the serious satanic groups and not give in to the pop-culture image given by retarted teenagers and certain metal bands (whose target audience are said retarted teenagers). try searching for LaVeyan satanism. it's like judging the christian faith by account of teleevangelists, fundamentalists and just simply stupid people.
also, on the notion of Hell, the hellfire and brimstone and pots of molten slag and whatnot, it's just stupid imagery added to scare children. the idea behind Hell is the absence of God.

I have read stuff on this guy, and I am not impressed.

Just another crazy guy with an agenda, no more believable than the Mormons, Scientology and Jehovas witnesses.

You need to give me some miracles recorded and put on youtube before I start believing new age takes on old school religions. Not that I believe in Christianity to begin with, but at least it has some great history and fantastic stories backing it up

This post has been edited by Aptorian: 15 June 2009 - 10:01 PM

[Gothos]

@Aptorian: christianity has a shitty history and the stories backing it up are even worse than Twilight.

you're just blabbering and not answering or adressing posts. you're still saying the same thing like in the last one and nothing else. but anyway.

Quote

I guess, as always, I'm just projecting my own opinions, but I would theories that the satanic crowd are far more inclined to be the angry, violent kind, compared to the likes of Pagans. My point would be that if you worship satan, would you not have to opposed to the church? God and the church would be the evil oppresors, and as such if you were a fanatic satanist... it's the churches that go first

who's talking about Pagans? in any case, pagan worship is far more likely to include animal and/or human sacrifice than satanism.
further to the point, if you "worship" satan, you're just a sad little frustrated kiddo, please don't mix things up. furthermore, a follower of satanism would rather just be left alone, it's the church that wants to prod and convert and punish anyone different.
you're still having the wrong image. you think you're talking about bacon, but in truth you're referring to a pile of poo.

Quote

Honestly, it can only be theoretic debate, but I would argue that any notion of there being a nice home waiting for satanists when they die, would be impossible

why not? die, be very very sorry, sincerely apologize and enjoy heaven.

Quote

It's Gods will that the wicked be punished. It's what the devil does. That's just the way it is.

that doesn't make sense either. God doesn't talk to Satan. in fact, his fate is the worst of any possible fates 'cause he's denied God's eternal presence. there's no inclination towards torturing anyone, since 1) how can you coerce someone who can't fall lower? and 2) why go in line with the designs of someone who fucked you up this bad?
the hellfire torture hell doesn't make sense at all.

Quote

Just another crazy guy with an agenda, no more believable than the Mormons, Scientology and Jehovas witnesses.

or catholics, or protestants, or... you get the idea.

[Raymond Luxury Yacht]

I think that what Apt is getting at is that Satan is a Christian concept, so if you buy into the idea that there is Satan, you can't just ignore what Christianity says about him (if you worship Satan you're punished for eternity), as it created him. It's a paradox to take the idea of Satan, a Christian construct, and then deny everything Christianity says about him, or even deny the Christian idea of God and Heaven.

Not worded very well, hopefully someone can come in and explain me.

[Aptorian]

Gothos, on Jun 16 2009, 12:28 AM, said:

@Aptorian: christianity has a shitty history and the stories backing it up are even worse than Twilight.

That's not fair, The bibles stories are way cooler than Twillight.

But it doesn't really work discussing christian elements and then saying that the bible is poo. It and the texts related to it are our primary source of information.

Gothos, on Jun 16 2009, 12:28 AM, said:

you're just blabbering and not answering or adressing posts. you're still saying the same thing like in the last one and nothing else. but anyway.

Weird, I thought I was adressing your hoity toity reply to my first post.

Gothos, on Jun 16 2009, 12:28 AM, said:

Quote

I guess, as always, I'm just projecting my own opinions, but I would theories that the satanic crowd are far more inclined to be the angry, violent kind, compared to the likes of Pagans. My point would be that if you worship satan, would you not have to opposed to the church? God and the church would be the evil oppresors, and as such if you were a fanatic satanist... it's the churches that go first

who's talking about Pagans? in any case, pagan worship is far more likely to include animal and/or human sacrifice than satanism.
further to the point, if you "worship" satan, you're just a sad little frustrated kiddo, please don't mix things up. furthermore, a follower of satanism would rather just be left alone, it's the church that wants to prod and convert and punish anyone different.
you're still having the wrong image. you think you're talking about bacon, but in truth you're referring to a pile of poo.

I was talking about pagans.

So you're saying that satanists don't worship satan? I guess your argument is that Satanism is a philosophy. But that doesn't change the fact that Satanism is connected with satan, and his work. You can't have one without the other. Or, like I said in the other post, you're discussing a whole different creature than what is the notion of satanism and it stops being about the opposite of christianity. I think we're both confused.

Gothos, on Jun 16 2009, 12:28 AM, said:

Quote

Honestly, it can only be theoretic debate, but I would argue that any notion of there being a nice home waiting for satanists when they die, would be impossible

why not? die, be very very sorry, sincerely apologize and enjoy heaven.

That would be the New Testament christian fate you're talking about there. The one that believes you go through purgatory and need to suffer for you sins, wouldn't let people get off as easy as just saying sorry when you stand before saint peter. This is again a hard topic because there are so many different opinions concerning what happens when you die as a christian. But if you are discussing death in connection with a hell and a real satan, then you also have to consider that there is a punishment and God may be forgiving but he doesn't forget.

Gothos, on Jun 16 2009, 12:28 AM, said:

Quote

It's Gods will that the wicked be punished. It's what the devil does. That's just the way it is.

that doesn't make sense either. God doesn't talk to Satan. in fact, his fate is the worst of any possible fates 'cause he's denied God's eternal presence. there's no inclination towards torturing anyone, since 1) how can you coerce someone who can't fall lower? and 2) why go in line with the designs of someone who fucked you up this bad?
the hellfire torture hell doesn't make sense at all.

You think that hell exists without Gods will? And you think that the Devil doesn't get pleasure out of fucking with gods designs? The Devil would happily sit in Hell and do his job because it would allow him to tempt man. The Devil isn't nice and I believe being spitefull is one of his favorite past times.

Again, we're discussing hell, not whether or not it exists, since if satan exists so does hell.

Gothos, on Jun 16 2009, 12:28 AM, said:

Quote

Just another crazy guy with an agenda, no more believable than the Mormons, Scientology and Jehovas witnesses.

or catholics, or protestants, or... you get the idea.

I agree, but the difference would be that the Catholics and Protestants are at least staying within the "boundaries" of the fate. These other "cults" have their own leaders, their own books, revelations, they diverge from what is generally agreed upon within Christianity.

EDIT: Oh, and yeah, what Ray said. It's exactly what I meant.

This post has been edited by Aptorian: 15 June 2009 - 11:25 PM

[Satan]

Basically, what we have here, ladies and gentlemen, are two atheist trying to theologically argue over the merits of a Christian symbol.

Rule number one in a discussion: find a common ground to base your arguments on. That way your not talking over each others heads with some ad hoc "Christian" theology, invented only to buttress your own argument.

[chill]

The way I understand it, the most popular satanic cult has nothing to do with Satan or any deity. It's all about doing whatever you want. Probably the only reason it's called satanism is because they follow the one and only command of the satan's church - "Do as thou wilt." I know even less about more obscure satanistic cults, but basically, I don't think they are much different from any other sect or cult. Is it good or bad? Well, if some satanist feels like helping an old woman carry her bags, then I guess you could say it's good. I don't think modern satanism has much to do with such categories, as it seems to have moved on from simply being an opposition to Christian church to something else entirely. And their philosophy has a lot to do with Nietzche (sp?) as far as I can tell - let the weak fall behind and all that.

Any satanist around that can clear this up?

[Adjutant Stormy~]

Brynjar, on Jun 17 2009, 10:40 AM, said:

Basically, what we have here, ladies and gentlemen, are two atheist trying to theologically argue over the merits of a Christian symbol.

Rule number one in a discussion: find a common ground to base your arguments on. That way your not talking over each others heads with some ad hoc "Christian" theology, invented only to buttress your own argument.

Haha Bryn, you two really do need to find the same rhetorical language to argue in.

But as to the worship of satan thing, it's really hard to argue consistently that the outstanding religious texts of any other sect have a great deal of dogmatic bearing on the beliefs of another. I mean, yes, in the Christian belief, the devil is the embodiment of all the horrible things that come with the rejection of god, or his laws.
But historically religious groups have shared deities, and had different beliefs orbiting the same figures. Dionysian cults identified many distinct interpretations of their god, from a pantheon father figure, to the great mythic Hero cult, and others. When the Romans essentially stole the Greek pantheon, they did some strategic redacting of their own.

If you look at it from a purely competitive standpoint, it makes perfect sense that every other figure and deity in the Bible (all representations of Satan) are portrayed as the pure and ultimate evil. It becomes almost a matter of politics what any religion says about another And with that in mind, it bears considering that the spin exists for the Satanic side too.

This post has been edited by Adjutant Stormy: 03 August 2009 - 12:59 AM

[Agraba]

First of all, I'm an atheist and I don't believe in directing your conduct entirely by some book of guidlines, but rather, adapting your morality and code of conduct based on what you observe (though it could cause much more harmful results for some than others).

I disagree with the satanist philosophy of living simply because I'm a man who believes that violence begets violence. If you go an eye for an eye, or are generally a dick to someone whom you believe is a dick to you, they won't fully understand why you took upon your actions, and will only seek further retribution, causing a chain reaction.

Our scope of our own situation is always muddled by the fact that we are ourselves. If you impartially observe two men who have done equally wrong to each other, then it will always be the case that both men would consider themselves having gotten the lower end of the stick, and if they were both satanists, they would both try to even that out. That's just a deadly trigger for chaos.

Satanism is a little too pessimistic about human nature in my opinion, but it does outline true things, and tells you to succumb to it instead of trying to fight it. I, however, feel that these things that we feel inclined to do are also things we should consciously try to avoid when it seems logical. But that too is human nature, the part outlined by christian faith at least. After all, we did develop brains, and it's not like some outside force is controlling what we do so technically everything we do is natural (even theists believe this because despite god's presence, we have free will). So technically, cooling ourselves and contemplating the reprecussions of instinctive behavior is still a part of our nature.

I think the only reason a person would pick satanist behavior over christian is because it's easier. Although I'm an atheist, I would prefer the christian approach because with the satanist approach, it will just turn into a whole messy chain reaction of retributions and misunderstandings. But again, my "bible" is a constantly changing document in my head.

This post has been edited by Agraba: 07 August 2009 - 06:12 PM

[Asheroth]

Adjutant Stormy, on Aug 3 2009, 10:57 AM, said:

But as to the worship of satan thing, it's really hard to argue consistently that the outstanding religious texts of any other sect have a great deal of dogmatic bearing on the beliefs of another. I mean, yes, in the Christian belief, the devil is the embodiment of all the horrible things that come with the rejection of god, or his laws.
But historically religious groups have shared deities, and had different beliefs orbiting the same figures. Dionysian cults identified many distinct interpretations of their god, from a pantheon father figure, to the great mythic Hero cult, and others. When the Romans essentially stole the Greek pantheon, they did some strategic redacting of their own.

If you look at it from a purely competitive standpoint, it makes perfect sense that every other figure and deity in the Bible (all representations of Satan) are portrayed as the pure and ultimate evil. It becomes almost a matter of politics what any religion says about another And with that in mind, it bears considering that the spin exists for the Satanic side too.

I think the point is (at least for Satan-worship, which is a completely different phenomenon to Satanism) that everything that these people believe about the Devil is taken straight out of the Bible or church tradition. He's the lord of darkness, he's engaged in a great struggle against God for supremacy over the earth and humanity, he controls other demons that have the power to intefere in human affairs etc. Christians and Satan-worshippers agree on these things, because they're in the Bible. It's just that the Satan-worshippers disregard the other bit, which is that Satan has already been defeated and he and his followers will be thrown into the lake of fire on the last day. A bit of pick and choose, if you will. I agree with RLY, the Devil really is a Christian idea, and if Satan-worshippers are worshipping the same Satan found in the Bible, they're going to be in for a surprise one day. If they're not worshipping the Satan found in the Bible, I don't think they're worshipping anyone who actually exists - it's just a human construct made out of some Biblical ideas and some other invented stuff that says Satan will triumph and lead his followers into victory etc.

Satanism, in its mainstream form, is just a philosophy dressed up in robes and an official institution to make it look pretty. (The parts of Satanism that deal with magick go under occult/pagan/Wiccan practices, and still don't have much to do with the actual Satan.) I disagree with it on philosophical grounds, because those are really the only grounds you can approach it from.

I'm a Christian, by the way (Australian Anglican if you want to be specific).

Also, it's good to see that Gothos is still around antagonising people on the discussion forums

[Adjutant Stormy~]

Asheroth, on Aug 7 2009, 10:12 PM, said:

I agree with RLY, the Devil really is a Christian idea, and if Satan-worshippers are worshipping the same Satan found in the Bible, they're going to be in for a surprise one day.

Satanism, in its mainstream form, is just a philosophy dressed up in robes and an official institution to make it look pretty. (The parts of Satanism that deal with magick go under occult/pagan/Wiccan practices, and still don't have much to do with the actual Satan.) I disagree with it on philosophical grounds, because those are really the only grounds you can approach it from.

Isn't Christianity a philosophy (a complicated one, yes) dressed in the robes of an official institution? Does it exist without The Church? Of course it does. I agree that you can't really disagree on anything more concrete than philosophical grounds, but that's not because it's any different from Buddhism, Christianity, or some unknown African tribal shamanism. When talking about religion you really need to take a step back. Humor me.

And my point with the Devil not being the sole Trademark of the Bible is that just as there are many subtle interpretations of the scripture, there are not-so-subtle ones. Even some radical ones. Hell, the Mormons even wrote themselves a new book (out of a hat-no less). Tradition frowns on the deviants. But that's not saying that their beliefs are any less real. And that's the thing with belief: who's to say you're right? Or that I'm right? Or that the satanists are right? What does it even mean to be right?

[Asheroth]

Wow, just reread my initial post. Sorry to come over all dogmatic and one-eyed, guess my bias-checker was out of commission there

Adjutant Stormy, on Aug 11 2009, 05:29 AM, said:

Isn't Christianity a philosophy (a complicated one, yes) dressed in the robes of an official institution? Does it exist without The Church? Of course it does. I agree that you can't really disagree on anything more concrete than philosophical grounds, but that's not because it's any different from Buddhism, Christianity, or some unknown African tribal shamanism. When talking about religion you really need to take a step back. Humor me.

I meant philosophical grounds as opposed to theological grounds. There's no theology of the Church of Satan. Satanism in that sense is basically just Nietzchean (sp?) egoism with a couple of metaphors thrown in (or at least this is how it seems to me, a confessed non-expert on either of those topics). You could of course maintain that theology and philosophy are the same thing, in which case I would have to disagree with you and leave the discussion there

Quote

And my point with the Devil not being the sole Trademark of the Bible is that just as there are many subtle interpretations of the scripture, there are not-so-subtle ones. Even some radical ones. Hell, the Mormons even wrote themselves a new book (out of a hat-no less). Tradition frowns on the deviants. But that's not saying that their beliefs are any less real. And that's the thing with belief: who's to say you're right? Or that I'm right? Or that the satanists are right? What does it even mean to be right?

If you can't see the difference between an interpretation of something and a misreading of something, I'm not sure that you'll be convinced by anything I say.

[Adjutant Stormy~]

Asheroth, on 29 August 2009 - 05:55 AM, said:

I meant philosophical grounds as opposed to theological grounds. There's no theology of the Church of Satan. Satanism in that sense is basically just Nietzchean (sp?) egoism with a couple of metaphors thrown in (or at least this is how it seems to me, a confessed non-expert on either of those topics). You could of course maintain that theology and philosophy are the same thing, in which case I would have to disagree with you and leave the discussion there

I am trying to keep this in the most general terms possible, and the Church of Satan is just one among many. There are more dogmatic theological sects, just like there are of Christianity.

Quote

QUOTE And my point with the Devil not being the sole Trademark of the Bible is that just as there are many subtle interpretations of the scripture, there are not-so-subtle ones. Even some radical ones. Hell, the Mormons even wrote themselves a new book (out of a hat-no less). Tradition frowns on the deviants. But that's not saying that their beliefs are any less real. And that's the thing with belief: who's to say you're right? Or that I'm right? Or that the satanists are right? What does it even mean to be right?

If you can't see the difference between an interpretation of something and a misreading of something, I'm not sure that you'll be convinced by anything I say.

A misreading implies that I think the text says something it doesn't. An interpretation implies that I think the text means something and that you may or may not agree. All meaning is personally derivative.
Regardless, I wax philosophical.