[blackzoid]

I'm curious about this, why does Brood not command the Barghast whole heartedly?
While he did command some of them during the Allaince against the Malazan's on Genabackis, during the Pannion War, the Bridgeburners still had to convinve them to go to war (it helped that their gods's remains were under Capustan)
Brood never simply told them to fight the Pannions. He doesn't seem to be a war chief, which is odd because he is probably the oldest Barghast around. He wandered around with Rake for a while before disappearing and coming back with Burn's Hammer. So he is a "medium-age" Ascendent at least.

The Barghast don't worship Brood either, in fact they never mention him at all. Even though he is probably the premier Ascendent of their race (perhaps the only one? Barring their gods). Is it because he is not of the White-face Barghast and the only ones we have see are them. Were the Barghast not said to be on several continents? Maybe he was a war chief on another continent?

At the moment, Tool, a non-Barghast, is leading the White Face forces, as seen at the end of Reaper's Gale. So I assume we will see more of them in the last 2 books. But would it not make more sense for Brood, said to be Dujek's match, to lead the Barghast armies? No offense to Tool but the T'lan Imass didn't really fight the Jaghut in an army versus army fashion. Brood would be the more logical choice on the strategic level.

[lobo the wolfman]

He was in cmmand of the allaince only because he was the best choice at the time, but during his conversation with Endest Silann it is implied that he never really wanted the pressure of command anyway. Plus why would he or anyone command all the Barghast in the world. They are a tribal people each with thier own chiefs and shamen. The northern Barghast (can't remember the clan name) joined the allaince to fight the Malazans and the White-face Barghast only joined to save thier gods anyway.

[blackzoid]

Ok, perhaps not active command of all the Barghast in the world. But surely whereever he goes, the local Barghast would recognise his abilities/strengths/age and would offer their allegience to one of their own who is an Ascendent. Even if he doesn't immediately want to lead. The White face now follow Tool who is non-Barghast after all.

Although seeing as Trotts had to fight the chieftan's son and the personal challange structure of their way of life, perhaps not.

I'm just thinking of the relationship between the Edur and Bloodeye, the Andii and Rake/Ruin possibly in the future the Teblor and Karsa.
Strong Ascendents generally command their race.

[lobo the wolfman]

Well Brood is only half Barghast, but i see what you mean. With the Tiste races Rake, Ruin etc etc are thought of as the first born of thier creators, kind of like how the Pharaohs of Egypt and the rulers of Rome clained that they where decendened from thier gods. So the rest of the race would natualy follow them. As to Karsa, well he would just have to promise the Teblor bloodshed and they would follow him.

[foolio]

also in GOTM, I think a Crimson Guard officer Jorrick Sharplance is leading the Barghast contingent in Broods army. He says something like "he is Crimson Guard, but the Barghast claim him as their own."

Isnt Caladan half Barghast? I dont know where I got that from but for some reason I thought I remebered it that way...

sorry lobo I just caught where you had prviously stated that he is half barghast....

This post has been edited by foolio: 14 May 2009 - 03:07 PM

[Abyss]

 blackzoid, on May 14 2009, 06:50 AM, said:

...
Strong Ascendents generally command their race.

Not exactly. This goes to the whole 'gods/ascendents activites draw the attnetion of other gods/ascendents and this is generally a bad thing' thing.

Rake led the Andii because they would have sat around and died without him doing so.
Ossi quite specifically refuses to lead the Liosan.
Olar Ethil is a bonecaster but she doesn't lead the Imass.

Scabby led the Edur and Ruin led some Andii and look how that ended up... Case in point, because of Scabby's actions, Gothos and Mael stepped in and basically screwed up the entire continent of Leth for a few millenia.

The Malazan Empire specifically avoided being allied to any god or ascendent and when its rulers ascended, they faked their own deaths and fucked off.

 foolio, on May 14 2009, 10:36 AM, said:

...
Isnt Caladan half Barghast? I dont know where I got that from but for some reason I thought I remebered it that way...

sorry lobo I just caught where you had prviously stated that he is half barghast....

This is an assumption. In MoI there are a couple of comments that Brood resembles a Barghast or seems to have barghast blood in him. But Brood is Old. Not Elder God old but ascendent who was around way back when old. He could pre-date the T3/Imass crossbreeding that created the Barghast. he could be something else entirely. We know ascendents can change their appaerance - Rake, Ossi and Mael have all shown this.

All of which is to say, there is ample reason to doubt that Brood is in fact Barghast or that he has any interest in leading the tribes. In MoI it was Hetan's dad who actually united and led the tribes. Brood was just a commander in the Genabackis army fighting the Malazans.


- Abyss, wants Brood to say 'It's Hammer Time', just once before the series ends.

[foolio]

Quote

Abyss, wants Brood to say 'It's Hammer Time', just once before the series ends.

and then Kallor to say "please hammer, dont hurt em..."

[blackzoid]

Ok, forgot about Brood only being Half-Barghast. My bad.
From the wiki:

There was Barghast blood in Caladan Brood, reflected in his tall, hulking form and his wide, flat face; and something else besides, something not quite human. The man was huge, well matched to the iron hammer strapped to his back.

MoI, UK mmpb, p.111

'He’s human – some say with Barghast blood'
GotM, UK Trade, p.53

"'He is not Tiste Andii, Hairlock. He's human - some say with Barghast blood, but none the less he shares nothing of Elder blood, or its ways.'"

- words of Tayschrenn

GotM, UK mmpb p.71




You'd think though that as a commander who was able to match Dujek, that he might come in a tad useful in the war that is to come in the Wastelands? I suspect that his only involvment will be in regards to the hammer/Burn situation however. Still I'd like to see some normal Barghast/Brood interaction in some way.

This post has been edited by blackzoid: 14 May 2009 - 04:37 PM

[Dammon]

Prehaps Caladan Brood is an Ancestor of the Barghast, and that is why everyone think he has some of their blood. What if he was of the first generation? Meaning his parents were T3 and Imass? or he is one of the first children born after the initial mingleing of bloodlines?

This would account for his large size and similar apperance to the Barghast.

[lobo the wolfman]

 Dammon, on May 15 2009, 12:15 PM, said:

Prehaps Caladan Brood is an Ancestor of the Barghast, and that is why everyone think he has some of their blood. What if he was of the first generation? Meaning his parents were T3 and Imass? or he is one of the first children born after the initial mingleing of bloodlines?

This would account for his large size and similar apperance to the Barghast.

The ancestors of the Barghast where the Imass that missed the Ritural and the TTT, and he hasn't really been discribed as either. It's been said that Brood is half Barghast which accounts for his apperance but i don't know what the other half is, human maybe?

[Jorram]

Not possible because it would make him full-fledged Barghast, rather than "human with Barghast blood". The Imass/Toblakai mating maybe happened prior to the ascent of humankind.

On a side note, I'd like to point out that saying "Brood is a match to Dujek" is really nonsense.. Brood is an ages old ascendant who was frigging Rake's and QoD's companion! He's a champion of Burn, an accomplished Tennes and Denul mage and all of this are the least of his feats, it would seem.

Dujek was just some petty human general, albeit very skilled at that.

There's hardly any place for comparison at all, let alone stating that Brood *might be* able to match Dujek's level.

(rant mode off ;p)

On a yet sid-er note, going back to GotM, Callot and Tattersail not knowing who Brood and especially who the Moon Spawn lord is, now strikes me as rather absurd. It's really a GotMism at its earnest, giving the current state of the series in which every random soldier knows more about Rake and Osserc than Tiam and MD combined ever knew..

In MoI even Kilava (!!!!!!!!), and that 300 gazillion years ago, has almost no knowledge left of the KCCM.
In RotCG, some random human mages know everything about them.. hell, even goddamn Kyle did!

Omniscience of history 40000000000000 ages old in nearly-common folk is getting really annoying with the progress of the series.

[Mr.James]

 Jorram, on May 15 2009, 06:04 AM, said:

Not possible because it would make him full-fledged Barghast, rather than "human with Barghast blood". The Imass/Toblakai mating maybe happened prior to the ascent of humankind.

On a side note, I'd like to point out that saying "Brood is a match to Dujek" is really nonsense.. Brood is an ages old ascendant who was frigging Rake's and QoD's companion! He's a champion of Burn, an accomplished Tennes and Denul mage and all of this are the least of his feats, it would seem.

Dujek was just some petty human general, albeit very skilled at that.

There's hardly any place for comparison at all, let alone stating that Brood *might be* able to match Dujek's level.

(rant mode off ;p)

On a yet sid-er note, going back to GotM, Callot and Tattersail not knowing who Brood and especially who the Moon Spawn lord is, now strikes me as rather absurd. It's really a GotMism at its earnest, giving the current state of the series in which every random soldier knows more about Rake and Osserc than Tiam and MD combined ever knew..

In MoI even Kilava (!!!!!!!!), and that 300 gazillion years ago, has almost no knowledge left of the KCCM.
In RotCG, some random human mages know everything about them.. hell, even goddamn Kyle did!

Omniscience of history 40000000000000 ages old in nearly-common folk is getting really annoying with the progress of the series.

I believe the comparison is made in regards to their ability to command armies
Being the companion or Rake and QoD and being centuries old doesn't necessarily mean that he's a tactical genius which is what dujek was...ofcourse if Brood and Dujek would face-off 1on1 brood would dominate dujek easily, but that's not the point.
It's all about tactical and stratigical skill, and this is where brood comes close to dujek, which is supposed to be one of the best human generals ever...
at least that's how I see it....

[Tapper]

 blackzoid, on May 14 2009, 11:55 AM, said:

I'm curious about this, why does Brood not command the Barghast whole heartedly?
While he did command some of them during the Allaince against the Malazan's on Genabackis, during the Pannion War, the Bridgeburners still had to convinve them to go to war (it helped that their gods's remains were under Capustan)
Brood never simply told them to fight the Pannions. He doesn't seem to be a war chief, which is odd because he is probably the oldest Barghast around. He wandered around with Rake for a while before disappearing and coming back with Burn's Hammer. So he is a "medium-age" Ascendent at least.

The Barghast don't worship Brood either, in fact they never mention him at all. Even though he is probably the premier Ascendent of their race (perhaps the only one? Barring their gods). Is it because he is not of the White-face Barghast and the only ones we have see are them. Were the Barghast not said to be on several continents? Maybe he was a war chief on another continent?

At the moment, Tool, a non-Barghast, is leading the White Face forces, as seen at the end of Reaper's Gale. So I assume we will see more of them in the last 2 books. But would it not make more sense for Brood, said to be Dujek's match, to lead the Barghast armies? No offense to Tool but the T'lan Imass didn't really fight the Jaghut in an army versus army fashion. Brood would be the more logical choice on the strategic level.

I think the simple answer is that he's not part of any existing tribal power structure. Sure, he's old. Sure, he's one of the most powerful ascendants around. But he has no ties to the clans (that we know of) other than being a half-barghast - but that in itself does not mean a lot, inter-clan warfare, feuding and what not happening.

Tool by virtue of marriage, is now a Barghast. Apparently. His own skills are enough to make him warleader, and he is used to command/lead (by example) - first sword and all that jazz. I also think Brood, in contrast, doesn't care for it - as good as he is, he seems a reluctant warlord.

This post has been edited by Tapper: 15 May 2009 - 09:12 AM

[blackzoid]

 Mr.James, on May 15 2009, 09:50 AM, said:

 Jorram, on May 15 2009, 06:04 AM, said:

Not possible because it would make him full-fledged Barghast, rather than "human with Barghast blood". The Imass/Toblakai mating maybe happened prior to the ascent of humankind.

On a side note, I'd like to point out that saying "Brood is a match to Dujek" is really nonsense.. Brood is an ages old ascendant who was frigging Rake's and QoD's companion! He's a champion of Burn, an accomplished Tennes and Denul mage and all of this are the least of his feats, it would seem.

Dujek was just some petty human general, albeit very skilled at that.

There's hardly any place for comparison at all, let alone stating that Brood *might be* able to match Dujek's level.

(rant mode off ;p)

On a yet sid-er note, going back to GotM, Callot and Tattersail not knowing who Brood and especially who the Moon Spawn lord is, now strikes me as rather absurd. It's really a GotMism at its earnest, giving the current state of the series in which every random soldier knows more about Rake and Osserc than Tiam and MD combined ever knew..

In MoI even Kilava (!!!!!!!!), and that 300 gazillion years ago, has almost no knowledge left of the KCCM.
In RotCG, some random human mages know everything about them.. hell, even goddamn Kyle did!

Omniscience of history 40000000000000 ages old in nearly-common folk is getting really annoying with the progress of the series.

I believe the comparison is made in regards to their ability to command armies
Being the companion or Rake and QoD and being centuries old doesn't necessarily mean that he's a tactical genius which is what dujek was...ofcourse if Brood and Dujek would face-off 1on1 brood would dominate dujek easily, but that's not the point.
It's all about tactical and stratigical skill, and this is where brood comes close to dujek, which is supposed to be one of the best human generals ever...
at least that's how I see it....

Yes, I was (obviously) talking about Brood's ability to lead armies. And how his ablity to lead armies on a tactical/strategic level might be good for the Barhgast who seem very disorganised. They weree able to beat the Pannion Domion remnants after Capustan and the leftovers of the Lether/Awl fight, but I think they will be badly mauled when going up against a strongly organised fresh army. although if they face KCCM, it probably won't make much difference.

[Jorram]

I think the uber-old and powerful ascendant point is valid also far tactics and leading armies, actually.

when you are millennia old sure you learned not just a bit or two about war, insofar as it's I think obvious Brood was interested in this aspect anyway.
It's a safe bet that given equal resources and coming down only to strategic skill he would pwn any commander, except especially talented (and to be honest Dujek is hardly the unthinkable genius) ones, simply by virtue of having seen it all a manyllion times.

This post has been edited by Jorram: 15 May 2009 - 10:43 AM

[blackzoid]

I don't know, Coltaine would have given him a run for his money.
Dujek and Brood were stated to be quite close in ability during MOI, admittedly a subjetive opinion.
But we never see Ascendents commanding armies for thousands of years, it all seems to be personal power for them. Easier for them to solve a problem by destroying the enemy with magic rather then out-generalling them. While extreme age gives them experience, it might not give them the relevant experience if you get me.
Kallor would be the best example of your idea, a man who isn't really an Ascendent (or a full Ascendent) but who has lived long enough and has commanded many armies. But the Alliance wasn't able to beat the Malazan's on Genabackis, even with his help. Although probably he did treat the whole thing as a game anyway and wasn't serious about it.

But I still think that innovation and innate ability would give a canny commander the chance to out fight a long lifed experienced Ascendent's army.The odds would be against them but it could be done.

This post has been edited by blackzoid: 15 May 2009 - 03:49 PM

[D'rek]

Brood is pretty much just not racially aspected. Unlike, say, Rake who goes around with a bunch of Andii with him everywhere, Brood goes around by himself and when faced with a pickle like a war on Genebackis, he meets new cultures and enlists them, like the Rhivi or the CG. He's basically a non-race. He does, however, have allegiance to Burn and Tennes, and is no doubt recognizable to any high priest or priestess of Burn (like Rath'Burn).

In order to be a war chief among the Barghast, you have to actually live with them in their society, and Brood does not.

 Jorram, on May 15 2009, 12:04 AM, said:

On a yet sid-er note, going back to GotM, Callot and Tattersail not knowing who Brood and especially who the Moon Spawn lord is, now strikes me as rather absurd. It's really a GotMism at its earnest, giving the current state of the series in which every random soldier knows more about Rake and Osserc than Tiam and MD combined ever knew..

Oh its not that bad. They had heard all the legends and stuff about Rake and Osserc and the Thousand Gods and such, but never seemed to run into any of 'em (Osserc, for example, missing for millenia). They just didn't realize at first that the random warlock leading the Tiste Andii was Rake himself (hence why when Hairlock made Tayschrenn reveal it 'Sail and Calot were like "can I go home now?")

[tiam]

Broods Barghast heritage is only mentioned in GOTM isnt it? I always thought his lineage was something else seen as barghast are a mix of Imass and TTT. Arent they?

Crazy theory Brood, as a tennes and burn relatedguardian, is a los thread of THel Akai or is atleast half that exlaining his size