[Kessobahn]

Ampelas, on May 7 2009, 07:33 PM, said:

Kessobahn, on May 7 2009, 07:23 PM, said:

Time will tell who is right and who is wrong.
I don't have much of a tell on you, it's true, and your Day 1 behaviour still completely puzzles me.

What exactly is puzzling you?

the fact that you made no attempt to cntribute anything, but instead spent all your time telling us about how day 1 is such a waste of time, and that all cases are always crap.

now, whilst I understand your sentiment, and share it to a degree, I'm of the opinion that all the crap and confusion of day 1 is necessary to gain info later on, and thus, I'm surprised that you've made absolutely NO attampts to do anything constructive. and then you jumped on an easy train, but so did I, so I won't accuse you of that.
Still, your "I hate day 1" attitude seemes rather forced.

[Ampelas]

Kessobahn, on May 7 2009, 07:53 PM, said:

Ampelas, on May 7 2009, 07:33 PM, said:

Kessobahn, on May 7 2009, 07:23 PM, said:

Time will tell who is right and who is wrong.
I don't have much of a tell on you, it's true, and your Day 1 behaviour still completely puzzles me.

What exactly is puzzling you?

the fact that you made no attempt to cntribute anything, but instead spent all your time telling us about how day 1 is such a waste of time, and that all cases are always crap.

now, whilst I understand your sentiment, and share it to a degree, I'm of the opinion that all the crap and confusion of day 1 is necessary to gain info later on, and thus, I'm surprised that you've made absolutely NO attampts to do anything constructive. and then you jumped on an easy train, but so did I, so I won't accuse you of that.
Still, your "I hate day 1" attitude seemes rather forced.

It wasn't forced, I hate day 1 of mafia. To some extent I agree that day 1 can get important later on, but only rarely, most games analyzing day 1 behavior only is misleading. It is only if you see a pattern that stays for day 2 or more days, or if you see a single bigger event that day 1 behavior is important in any way. Unfortunately I didn't have time to play aggressively, but I certainly tried my best to contribute - why not compare your day 1 contribution with mine, and you'll see that the actual content isn't that different.
Just as a player can make lots of nonsense posts, pretending to be constructive, a player can post only necessary posts that hopefully advances the game.
I honestly don't know what you are getting at. Everyone behaves randomly day 1, and everyone behaves in a puzzling manner to some extent on day 1.
To summarize, your are sort of throwing stones around in a house made of glass. That you picked me as a target for your aggressive play is intriguing. What are you trying to dig up?

[Kessobahn]

proof of your scummyness, ofc,

Also, I was looking for alternatives to the participants of the clusterfuck, and your behaviour was the oddest and most suspiciousl to me.

several others are coasting, and the oft-mentoned Tennes is one of them, but you attracted no attention form others, with the exeptions of Fener and I.

[Ampelas]

So the lack of scummy behavior is proof of me being scum? Me not being odd makes me odd? Sorry but it just doesn't wash. Not to mention you're way off in your assumption. I am not scum. I think you are trying, for some reason, to paint me scum, and I can't figure out why, unless you're scum yourself. I am not saying you are, I am just saying your digging attitude doesn't make sense.

[Kessobahn]

I am looking for alternatives to the custerfuck members you seem to suggest--korv/Serc/Tellan.

Coasting is scummy. Jumping on ALL the most popular/accessible trains is scummy. Not thinking for yourself is scummy.
Instead of wasting time defending from mine (admittedly) weak case, you could've looked into someone else.

Show some initiative, it's your best chance of convincing me I'm wrong about you being scum.

[Ampelas]

It's not necessarily scummy to join trains you think is valid. I haven't had time to play aggressively, and thus haven't been able to build the cases I like first. That doesn't mean that my opinion on them are less valid. I think making cases just to make cases are much more scummy. Strawmanning and making up cases that doesn't exist, just so you can say that you had an original thought or whatever shows you are insecure and feel a need to fit in. That's not to say that I don't agree that I should make more of an effort, there's always room for more effort. You are building an entire case on my admittedly low profile in this game - it's not completely of my own choosing that I've had a low profile - and you are forgetting that the reason scum so often tries to play with a low profile is because it's harder to distinguish between innos playing well (Innos should try not to stick out their neck too much, because we all should try to stay alive) and the scum hiding. You seem to think that playing bad is something that is good for the inno team. It is not. Both playing styles are used by innos and scum both. But I intend to contribute more because the scum will try to keep hiding, and I won't need to, and then it's not as easy for scum to hide. Until then lets try not to make a mess of things, shall we?

[Ampelas]

I think my case on Serc was exceptionally clear, and I still stand by it. Korvalain, I think very clearly, has sown confusion and tried to uncover inno power roles. It should be evident to anyone reading what happened yesterday with the pm debates. Other than that, I think players like Mockra should be looked at, that's not even coasting, it's simple hiding in plain sight. Other than that, nothing pops out as noteworthy. Beside your aggressive play style that is, and your posse of sheep following you around, but you don't seem to think there's anything strange about people not thinking for themselves as long as they agree with your cases, am I right.

[Kessobahn]

?
I berated Tennes for voting you without giving an explanation.

Fener has mentioned that he made a case on someone yesterday. today he posted it, and it turned out to be on you, and it fit with my conclusions.

Sure, he could've made up that episode, but it'd be an elaborate, and essentially useless lie.

I disagree that innos should keep a low profile--especially RIs. if more people talk, there's more interaction, and there's a greater chance of the scum making a mistake.
innos that nod and smile, and follow along withpout contributing are bad play--because the innos are forced to waste time, assuming they may be scum (like i'm doing now, possibly), whilst the scum already KNOW who is scum and who is inno.

in any case, you're not gonna convince that it's easier for innos to play when everyone agrees with everyone, than it is when everyone has contrary opinions.

edit: spelling+ to make sense

This post has been edited by Kessobahn: 08 May 2009 - 02:04 AM

[Ampelas]

Kessobahn, on May 7 2009, 09:03 PM, said:

?
I berated Tennes for voting you without giving an explanation.

Fener has mentioned that he made a case on someone yesterday. today he posted it, and it turned out to be on you, and it fit with my conclusions.

Sure, he could've made up that episode, but it'd be an elaborate, and essentially useless lie.

Why would it be useless? I disagree that it would be elaborate, he only had to plant the idea that he had a case, then go for whatever he thought fitting the next day.

Kessobahn, on May 7 2009, 09:03 PM, said:

I disagree that innos should keep a low profile--especially RIs. if more people talk, there's more interaction, and there's a greater chance of the scum making a mistake.
innos that nod and smile, and follow along withpout contributing are bad play--because the innos are forced to waste time, assuming they may be scum (like i'm doing now, possibly), whilst the scum already KNOW who is scum and who is inno.

in any case, you're not gonna convince that it's easier for innos to play when everyone agrees with everyone, than it is when everyone has contrary opinions.

edit: spelling+ to make sense

I agree with some parts of this, but talking can spread confusion unless it actually leads somewhere. Scum can easily make us jump at shadows, and that's why it's sometimes better to keep a low profile until there's a chance to advance the game. That said, I do agree, as I said before, that contributing is important. Don't pretend I said otherwise. Secondly I wasn't saying we should agree with everything, we should just agree when we actually think there's something to agree about. Disagreeing just to disagree is just as counterproductive as agreeing all the time.

You're the one not making any sense here.

[Ampelas]

I have to go unfortunately. Back in approx 10 hours.

[Kessobahn]

lol, and how do we know what's "worth agreeing about?"

when we have cases on most people, sure, it may be harder to make a choice, but at least people are watched, and don't slip below radar.

people that deliberately keep a low profile and do nothing, are a liability in most cases, in my experience.

[Rashan]

Ok guys, sorry for the delay. It is exhausting moving and getting everything accomplished. I wanted to get this out before I went to sleep because I said that I would. Let's see what we have...

Ruse, on May 4 2009, 08:56 PM, said:

In unrelated news, I like how my tab at the bottem of the screen for this window says "Mafia 45 - The Prince" which makes me think of Machiavelli rather than The Princess Bride.

Seems appropriate somehow.

Edited to add: I just noticed I'm all alone. :sniffles:

Ok here we start with the signal, which is isn't terrible especially since he did his screenshot defense. It is strange that Ruse would say this since it is mafia so people will look at it and because the Prince is the enemy here.

Ruse, on May 5 2009, 04:32 AM, said:

In the lower left, you can see that it says "The Prince..." cutting off "ss Bride" part.

here we have the screenshot, so follow the quote to view the screenshot and notice that the poster shown there in the screenshot is HP. It isn't much, in fact I'm sure most of you didn't even look at that, but this is where I started to have a gut feeling that something was up. However HP is the person who posts a few before Ruse did the screenshot so maybe a fluke...

Ruse, on May 5 2009, 09:14 AM, said:

Shut yo mouth!

Just talkin' bout Shaft.

Then we can diggit.

And Hood's Path took the weakest path. Weak! And here we went all out to lambast the lukewarm posts. :dissapointed:

But then Ruse follows it up with another call out to HP, which seems to be fun since it lampoons the name of HP but I think Ruse is trying to pound home his identity to his master

Hood's Path, on May 7 2009, 10:27 AM, said:

Ruse, on May 7 2009, 10:26 AM, said:

I've got nothin'. Most recently I've been back over Kesso's, Fener's and Korlat's posts. I see small edgy things that I could make myself believe are scummy, but not really. I'd like Fener to come back though, he was at least putting stuff together at one point.

I was so damn certain that one of either Sil or Shadow had to be scum. But now, where to look?

could look at .....you perhaps

Hood's Path, on May 7 2009, 10:40 AM, said:

Ruse, on May 7 2009, 10:36 AM, said:

Ok. I looked at my own posts and...wait a minute!

look at your own posts and make a case that proves you are innocent or you get my vote...

Just some friendly banter here, though it does seem to be an attempt to distance by having HP claim to look though Ruse's posts as if distructing him.

Ruse, on May 7 2009, 10:49 AM, said:

Well, Omtose was convinced I was symping Sil. But Sil is dead and found inno. People have brought up my "Prince" comment, and while I admitted (to gamelon) that in retrospect it was sort of a dumb thing to say, there wasn't anything true about it. And apparently that's the first time anyone has used a "screenshot defense" (that's trademarked btw).

Other than that, I'm guilty of being unhelpful, because my scumdar has failed on all accounts so far.

That and my PM says (oh wait, we're not allowed to talk about that anymore, shhhhh)

At any rate, in hopes that a blind pig can find an acorn on occasion, I'm going to go and look at the posts of Omtose, Ruse and Galain since I haven't looked at them yet.

Ruse, trying to make us think inno by going with some role PM stuff (which I still disagree with, ruins game but too late now) and claims that symping Sil who was inno makes him inno. Of course if Ruse is the symp then it would make sense to cause distractions by symping Sil after already Signaling HP (see quotes 1-3) to show identity.

Hood's Path, on May 7 2009, 10:54 AM, said:

Ruse, on May 7 2009, 10:49 AM, said:

Well, Omtose was convinced I was symping Sil. But Sil is dead and found inno. People have brought up my "Prince" comment, and while I admitted (to gamelon) that in retrospect it was sort of a dumb thing to say, there wasn't anything true about it. And apparently that's the first time anyone has used a "screenshot defense" (that's trademarked btw).

Other than that, I'm guilty of being unhelpful, because my scumdar has failed on all accounts so far.

That and my PM says (oh wait, we're not allowed to talk about that anymore, shhhhh)

At any rate, in hopes that a blind pig can find an acorn on occasion, I'm going to go and look at the posts of Omtose, Ruse and Galain since I haven't looked at them yet.

lol...

HP laughing the post off.

Ruse, on May 7 2009, 11:00 AM, said:

Well, with the track record I have had, I don't know that I'll find anything less when I search myself.

At least I can laugh about it.

That's about it, I suspect that something is there but any evidence that is available is above you. I'd be interested in hearing what you guys think. What I took as signaling in the few 3 quotes is a little weak but if I was HP and the prince it would have caught my attention.

[Kessobahn]

hmm
it's possible
i'l take a look at HP tomorrow, since i'll soon be heading to sleep.

[Galain]

Emurlahn, on May 8 2009, 12:28 AM, said:

Decided to take a look at Galain, because he hadn't really garnered any attention from anyone up to this point. Fairly early on, I find this Day 1 quote, which makes me very suspicious:

Galain, on May 4 2009, 05:52 PM, said:

Omtose, on May 4 2009, 07:48 PM, said:

I'm bored. And hungry. And angry. And hungry.

Just admit you killed his father and we can get this over with

There is a classic syndrome of dropping hints about your role into the Day 1 RPing, happens to the best of us. This could very easily be construed as one of those - so now I'm looking at the rest of Galain's posts with the possibility in the back of my mind that he could quite easily be Count Rugen.

Huh? How does that quote make me count Rugen? This "you killed my father, prepare do die" and WIFOM are the only two things I remember from Princess Bride, I had to put a reference of it somewhere, no-one else was, and that was a crime.

Quote

Galain, on May 5 2009, 09:03 AM, said:

Ruse, on May 5 2009, 10:57 AM, said:

@Galain, I agree that Korv's posts made a minor stirring of th ants nest. Kesso's response seemed a little WTF, which strikes me as an overreaction. Just for info's sake, why do you think a Silanah vote is the way to go at the moment?

Well, there's time, and I'm around for a while.

If this reasonning is true and there's something there, then the one to vote for is Silanah. I'm not sure killers would make WTF reactions towards a random vote on a inno.

Then again, killers sometimes thing too hard before posting to sound "normal" and come up off, so it's possible.

Galain, on May 7 2009, 06:14 PM, said:

Korvalain, on May 7 2009, 08:07 PM, said:

Read this. I ci'ed Liosan. So did Silanah. If I was scum, why would I CI an inno? Guess what, Tellan is scum. No more from me on that,

The only difference between you and Tellan is that Tellan didn't go from "SCUM! SCUM! SCUM!" to "ERR NO INNO! INNO! INNO" for no reason I can picture, and I have imagination, believe me.

And the killers can CI all the innos if they want, they will always turn out to be right.

Compare the underlined sections in these two posts - the first is from Day 1, the second from Day 3. To my mind, they appear to be complete opposites in tone. In the first, he is cautious and hesitant about making a pronouncement about how scum operate, but in the second, he is brash and knowing. In one, he is ruling out a reaction as scummy, in the other he is doing the opposite. Add to that, I get a similar "I'm actually sneakily talking about myself, hehe!" vibe from the first one in particular.

Of course they're opposite tones, one is a possibility, the other a logical statement

For the first one, it was a discussion where I was voting for Silanah for being symped, while Ruse (I think) was voting for D'riss for his reaction to the vote on Silanah. I was asking him why, if we had the same interpretation of the thread, he was not voting for the master, and he told me he thought the D'riss reaction was not symp reacting to master but killer trying to over-act a defense against an inno. I conceded it was possible, since killers play self-conciously

The second was to Korvalain who tried to prove he was inno because he could predict Liosan was inno before the CF. My response that the killers can predict EVERYONE'S CF and be right, so that was not a defense. Again, that's not an opinion based on experience, but a fact.

Quote

Galain, on May 5 2009, 02:58 PM, said:

I have to go, I'm a bit disappointed by Silanah's recent posts, I was waiting for him to see if I should keep my vote.

My case is around and not hard to follow, but for those who only skim (quite a few, it seems)

1) D'riss over-reaction to a semi-joke vote by Korvalain on Silanah, as if he felt he needed to "diffuse" the pressure quickly
2) Kessobahn saying "innos have lovers too", as if the "partner" case had any validity. It's like he knew that Silanah had a partner indeed and tried to defend him by saying "Err, well, he's paired, but so are some innos, right?". That Kesso post was bizarre, then he disappeared.
3) Someone once said "Vote D'riss, though I'm less suspicious of Silanah". I have no idea what it means, but once again someone feels the need to mention Silanah is less suspicious for some reason, as if he ever really was.

That's it and all, maybe it's all wrong interpretations and nothing but coincidences and akward wordings, but that's what I saw until now.

Will be back soon.

Galain started off by going for Silanah. However, his case was not based on anything Silanah himself said, but rather symp clues from others. Doing it this way allows him to have a strong opinion on something to avoid 'middle of the road' accusations, makes it difficult for Silanah to defend himself, and gives him plenty of plausible deniability when Silanah comes up inno.

My case on Silanah was indeed based on symp clues from others. There were lots of those and I didn't like it. I don't give a crap when I make a case on "how a player can defend himself". It was not a strong case, of course, and I was waiting for Silanah to come back before pushing it too much or trying to convince others to vote.

It's when Silanah came back with his stupid "summarize plz" that I went for him more strongly. I'm sorry, but if you're inno, never say that. Just don't.

Quote

Galain, on May 6 2009, 06:19 AM, said:

Once again, Kessobahn "summarized" the case on Silanah as "he said he had a partner", which is getting annoying. At this point, he can't be that slow, I think it's purposeful misinformation.

With D'riss being inno, it does not convince me I could be wrong about Silanah, since in my interpretation he's possibly a symp. And his fake-coding to save his ass at the end can NOT be the work of a (well-playing) town.

To my feelings about Silanah, I will add his recent 10-15 posts. These are quite high-quality, and I can't believe they come from the same player that once posted "I won't read the thread, you guys tell me what happened". Either there's two different players playing that alt, or he tried a lazy "I'm afraid to betray my scumminess by mistake so you guys tell me what is being said so I can repeat".

Anyways, lots of information to assimilate, so I wont vote yet.

Here Galain continues his case on Silanah. Once again, he is using evidence that is very difficult for Silanah to defend against (no idea how I would respond to such an accusation), though personally I didn't see a tremendous difference, nor do I think such a difference is inherently suspicious given the difference in mentality you have to have on Days 1 and 2.

If you play rabid-dog like Silanah was playing around that time, you can do that from the start, and not cruise with one-liners for 24 hours like Silanah did.

Plus, what's your problem of calling my cases "lame" after the inno CF of Silanah? It's a false and unfair way to make me sound scummy. If you thought I was wrong at the time, you could have said so, and end day 2 with a vote.

[Galain]

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Galain, on May 6 2009, 06:10 AM, said:

Path-Shaper, on May 6 2009, 12:54 AM, said:

Meanas (Khellendros) is dead. He was of the town.
Telas (Morgoth45) is dead. He was of the town.

and for all you smart-asses: town has the same alignment as inno wink.gif

... TMDI 2, that can't be anything else than a night 1 inno vig.
...
...

This is Galain's reaction to the results of the night scene. Seems to me it would be in the killer's best interest to keep people thinking that there's only 1 NK per night for as long as possible. But when you look at the numbers, with only 1 NK this would be a LOOOONG game. And in light of last night's scene, I think we can safely say there are in fact 2 NKs per night in play. Keeping up this stance allows him to get on his soapbox (see below):

Galain, on May 6 2009, 08:22 AM, said:

I'll make a little lecture for the sake of self-improvement, if you don't like it sue me tongue.gif

Whoever used his vig last night, that was bad play.

There a specific situations in a game where a vig is needed, and testing a day 1 hunch is definitely NOT one of them. If that was made for personnal fulfillment, that was nasty play. If that was made for fear of getting NKed and not using the kill, that was pointless, there's no penalty for a vig to die with his vig unused.

Now we're triple-fucked:
- We're not sure which of the NK was from the killers unless you reveal, but unlike what Silanah said, DON'T yet
- Your target was inno, and might have been roled.
- We lost your vig if we need it later.


Anyways, I'm assuming this was a vig due to TMDI 2. Also, we do have young players around so I'm angry per se, but it's been bugging me so I felt like saying that.

Which reinforces his belief of there only being 1 NK whilst simultaneously allowing him to fearmonger about the possibility of having lost roled players.

Anywho, the Role PM fiasco comes around, and he decides that it gives him the fodder to chase after someone else. After all, he can't really chase after Silanah any more. So he latches onto Korvalain. There are quite a few posts of his doing this, so I won't bother to quote any of them.

Galain, on May 7 2009, 12:27 PM, said:

Gamelon, on May 7 2009, 12:56 PM, said:

vote korvalain

i dont even think i am going to say anything else today.

As much as I admire Gamelon's balls of steel in the face of slaughter and approve this particular sentiment, I think it's warranted to discuss the 3 kills.

Unless we have a posse of epileptic vigs out there, it seems the killer team have more than one kill, possibly up to three. Now, I can't imagine that if there's 3 killers they all have a separate kill unless it's made that they don't know of each other. TMDI discussions aside, that would mean that looking at the game in the term of "association/dissociation/defense" etc makes no sense. For all we know, the killers have been at each other's throats on thread at some point.

That makes it very hard for us, I guess we have to rely on "general scumminess" and hope that they kill one another by chance at some point. And as for "general scumminess", for me today it's also Korvalain.


Speaking of which

Korvalain, on May 7 2009, 01:40 PM, said:

Gamelon, on May 7 2009, 05:56 AM, said:

vote korvalain

i dont even think i am going to say anything else today.

hey dumb ass. Tellan is still alive I cied Liosan

Wat?

So realising that he can't try to convince people of there only being 1 NK anymore, he decides to use it to instead attempt to dissuade people from looking for connections between players to try and sniff out scum.

TMDI:1 = X+Y players, X roleless innocents, Y killers
TMDI:2 = As 1, but a small number of simple roles. Eg: 12 players, 2 Killers, Symp, Healer, BP/Vig.
TMDI:3 = Large number of simple roles.
TMDI:4 = Small number of rare/complex/unique roles or mechanics.
TMDI:5 = Multiple threats to town. Eg: Cult/Serial Killer/Second scum faction.

Look where do you see "second scum faction". I apologize, but for me TMDI 2 was equal to one team of killers, against a majority of innos. Simple as that. If you say that this game at 22 players would be "too long", I disagree. It would be as long as it need to be, and would be fun from beginning to end.

We have seen night 1 vigs before, and ALWAYS they worked against inno. Sorry for my in-game "lecture", but you would be surprised at the amount of bad play that keeps coming back despite numerous discussions we have about them.

As for the second night, well of course I had to accept it's impossible it's all vigs. And you say I use that to "dissuade people from looking for connections". So tell me your conclusion, Emurlahn, the killers talk to each other and chose 2-3 players to kill every night?

I'm the only one who brought this point to discussion, it was completely ignored except by Omtose. It is an important point to discuss I believe, but you guys just plod along and look for "middle of the road" players to vote. Honestly, that's all the cases I see here, "middle of the road". No looking for the consequences of players' actions and what they mean for team inno.

Quote

In summary, I feel as though a lot of Galain's behaviour can be construed as scummy. From the talking about oneself in early RP to subtly trying to drag the game away from looking properly for killers, it seems like there is plenty of suspicious stuff going on in there. Enough so that I'm going to

Remove Vote
Vote Galain



EDIT: Many posts were crossed in the making of this case.

I fail to see the "talking about oneself" part, what does that refer to? And I resent the "trying to drag the game away from looking properly for killers" when you can't even comment on the statement I brought for discussion. Tell me, again, in your own words, what multiple kills means for the structure of the killer team? Because that could decide on how we look for them.

This post has been edited by Galain: 08 May 2009 - 05:18 AM

[Galain]

I'm also not belittling the "middle of the road" arguments, because they are indeed quite efficient at netting scum.

I just like to see other things from time to time. Those who refuse to look at Korvalain because "enough of that mess let's turn the page" either fail to see the difference in behavior (and result for the innos) between Korv and Tellan, or just skipped the whole thing and can't be bothered to look back

And yes, it was a damaging mess, but why did it happen? Can we just dismiss it without looking at it, and the responsible person? Strange attitude. But anyways, like Silanah on day 1, I can tend to be narrow-minded when I play, but then again that's how it should be. Everyone should have a stance they argue for, otherwise if we're all all over the place it will just make a mess.

I'm willing to vote Ampelas if needed, or Anomandaris (but for that, I guess I'll need to repeat my arguments because very few seem to have pick up on them, strangely)

[Omtose]

Emurlahn, on May 7 2009, 10:28 PM, said:

Decided to take a look at Galain.....

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Galain said:

That makes it very hard for us, I guess we have to rely on "general scumminess" and hope that they kill one another by chance at some point. And as for "general scumminess", for me today it's also Korvalain.

So realising that he can't try to convince people of there only being 1 NK anymore, he decides to use it to instead attempt to dissuade people from looking for connections between players to try and sniff out scum.

I agree, that is pretty scummy. Lots of people have wanted to avoid another clusterfuck and avoid the whole PM fiasco, but to advocate looking only for general scumminess rather than getting into specifics is a leap in logic. I hadn't noticed this before.

Catching up... got to go to work soon, may not have time to catch all the way up.

[Ruse]

A thought occurred to me. If you accept Galain's premise that Anomander's flip out is fake, that puts the post where he flames me for my case against him in an entirely different light.

[Omtose]

Galain, you seem to make a lot of sense, but then I did pick up on this contradiction.

In the post just above, you say that we can't just move on from the clusterfuck, we have to address it...

Galain, on May 8 2009, 06:26 AM, said:

I'm also not belittling the "middle of the road" arguments, because they are indeed quite efficient at netting scum.

I just like to see other things from time to time. Those who refuse to look at Korvalain because "enough of that mess let's turn the page" either fail to see the difference in behavior (and result for the innos) between Korv and Tellan, or just skipped the whole thing and can't be bothered to look back

And yes, it was a damaging mess, but why did it happen? Can we just dismiss it without looking at it, and the responsible person? Strange attitude. But anyways, like Silanah on day 1, I can tend to be narrow-minded when I play, but then again that's how it should be. Everyone should have a stance they argue for, otherwise if we're all all over the place it will just make a mess.

I'm willing to vote Ampelas if needed, or Anomandaris (but for that, I guess I'll need to repeat my arguments because very few seem to have pick up on them, strangely)

But below (sorry for the mixed quote), you say that we need to look for "general scumminess" rather than details. The two seem to be completely different approaches for me... except that you use both approaches to go for Korvalain.

Omtose, on May 8 2009, 07:29 AM, said:

Emurlahn, on May 7 2009, 10:28 PM, said:

Decided to take a look at Galain.....

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Galain said:

That makes it very hard for us, I guess we have to rely on "general scumminess" and hope that they kill one another by chance at some point. And as for "general scumminess", for me today it's also Korvalain.

So realising that he can't try to convince people of there only being 1 NK anymore, he decides to use it to instead attempt to dissuade people from looking for connections between players to try and sniff out scum.

I agree, that is pretty scummy. Lots of people have wanted to avoid another clusterfuck and avoid the whole PM fiasco, but to advocate looking only for general scumminess rather than getting into specifics is a leap in logic. I hadn't noticed this before.

Catching up... got to go to work soon, may not have time to catch all the way up.

It seems to me like you're dead set on Korvalain, and you'll use any excuse to get him. Somewhat scummy, especially if you see Korv as someone you need lynch, by any arguments necessary.

vote Galain

Have to say though, Korv seems to have done a disappearing act.

I'm off. I will be able to play more at the weekend, promise.

[Omtose]

Ruse, on May 8 2009, 07:33 AM, said:

A thought occurred to me. If you accept Galain's premise that Anomander's flip out is fake, that puts the post where he flames me for my case against him in an entirely different light.

It definitely seemed contrived. But I'm not sure of your point (or exactly which flaming post you're referring to). I have to go out, but if you elaborate I will think on it when I return.

Laters.