[Assail]

Disappointed by RG? I mean, between QB being able to take on 3 fully fledged Goddesses and wtfpwn them, and Silchas being pretty much butt raped by a couple of cussers and the whole "OMG Redmask is actually a Letherii, so where's the real one?!", I was really let down by it.

I mean, SE killed off a bunch of very cool guys for no apparent reason, ressurected a guy just to have him cut open a bad guys stomach, and for what? The book didn't answer a lot of mysteries, it never explained the KCCM and Redmask, or the Jaghut they found on the Throne of Ice or what was happening surrounding it.

It was an entertaining story, but a huge let down in comparison to the other books. I did, however, enjoy how he basically told us there is gonna be a show down between the Errant and Paran. I'm looking forward to that.

Edit: Also very sad about Beak's death, such an awesome character, reminded me of Ublala Pung.

This post has been edited by Assail: 28 April 2009 - 12:38 AM

[D'rek]

Assail, on Apr 27 2009, 07:30 PM, said:

Disappointed by RG?

Not really, no. The main dynamics of DG, MoI and MT was giant armies clashing in war. The main dynamic of HoC was two single characters clashing. BH was a bit of both. RG, on the other hand, was more about a civilization being destroyed by its own corruption and inefficacy all by its lonesome. Obviously the 14th and Awl had some armies-clashing elements, but overall they were symptoms of Lether's own problems. My point here, is that RG was a fresh new dynamic. I'd have been disappointed if it was just another army marching into Lether and doing a couple battles here and there, as in DG, MoI, MT and parts of HoC and BH.

Assail, on Apr 27 2009, 07:30 PM, said:

I mean, SE killed off a bunch of very cool guys for no apparent reason, ressurected a guy just to have him cut open a bad guys stomach, and for what?

SE "killed off" Coltaine, Whiskeyjack, Felisin, Baudin, Kulp, Truth, Rellock, Trotts, Bairoth, Hedge and plenty more for as much 'reason' as Trull or Beak or whatever "very cool guys" you're referring to. How is RG any more disappointing? If anything RG *not* having people killed off would be a disappointment, assuming the rest of the books were favourable.

Assail, on Apr 27 2009, 07:30 PM, said:

The book didn't answer a lot of mysteries, it never explained the KCCM and Redmask, or the Jaghut they found on the Throne of Ice or what was happening surrounding it.

nor did BH explain the skykeeps in the Imperial Warren, nor what happened to Oponn, nor what Leoman/Dunsparrow will be done with in relation to Hood, nor what the death of Sorrit means, nor why the Short-tails at Ugarat were freed, nor why Ganath had trapped a skykeep, nor why the Deragoth would chase the Hounds of shadow, etc etc

nor did MT explain how the CG moves his warren around, nor how Withal could forge a sword that revives people from Silchas Ruin's shattered swords, nor how Silchas could appear around as a ghost or travel in time, etc etc

nor did HoC explain the Tiste Liosan, nor the purpose of 'Siballe's army of orphans, nor which Crow officer was friends with Bellurdan Skullcrusher, nor what an enk'aral in a TTT pureblood is going to do for Togg&Fan, nor where Greyfrog is from, nor where Osserc is, etc etc

nor did MoI explain who was drawing from Tool's Tellann warren, nor how K'rul made the warrens, nor how the CG was poisoning the warrens around the Pannion Domin, nor why the KCCM undead were not used in the Siege of Setta or before, etc etc

nor did DG explain the result of the Path of Hands (definitively), nor the nature of Tanno magic, etc etc

nor did GotM explain much of anything at all


Saying RG is disappointing because it didn't explain enough mysteries and made new ones... I am amazed you could have made it this far in the series if such a thing disappoints you so.

[Salt-Man Z]

It's more I think that the ratio of explanations to new mysteries felt like it reached a low point. I enjoyed the book, don't get me wrong, but the only completed event of any importance was Rhulad's death. And I know I'm being simplistic, but everything else that happened (Icarium's machine, the Redmask/K'Chain plot, the Bonehunters' arrival in Lether) is still a big old To Be Continued/Explained...

My overall feeling was that the book was anticlimactic in just about every respect, and just about every climax.

[Assail]

D'rek, on Apr 27 2009, 07:29 PM, said:

Assail, on Apr 27 2009, 07:30 PM, said:

Disappointed by RG?

Not really, no. The main dynamics of DG, MoI and MT was giant armies clashing in war. The main dynamic of HoC was two single characters clashing. BH was a bit of both. RG, on the other hand, was more about a civilization being destroyed by its own corruption and inefficacy all by its lonesome. Obviously the 14th and Awl had some armies-clashing elements, but overall they were symptoms of Lether's own problems. My point here, is that RG was a fresh new dynamic. I'd have been disappointed if it was just another army marching into Lether and doing a couple battles here and there, as in DG, MoI, MT and parts of HoC and BH.

Assail, on Apr 27 2009, 07:30 PM, said:

I mean, SE killed off a bunch of very cool guys for no apparent reason, ressurected a guy just to have him cut open a bad guys stomach, and for what?

SE "killed off" Coltaine, Whiskeyjack, Felisin, Baudin, Kulp, Truth, Rellock, Trotts, Bairoth, Hedge and plenty more for as much 'reason' as Trull or Beak or whatever "very cool guys" you're referring to. How is RG any more disappointing? If anything RG *not* having people killed off would be a disappointment, assuming the rest of the books were favourable.

Assail, on Apr 27 2009, 07:30 PM, said:

The book didn't answer a lot of mysteries, it never explained the KCCM and Redmask, or the Jaghut they found on the Throne of Ice or what was happening surrounding it.

nor did BH explain the skykeeps in the Imperial Warren, nor what happened to Oponn, nor what Leoman/Dunsparrow will be done with in relation to Hood, nor what the death of Sorrit means, nor why the Short-tails at Ugarat were freed, nor why Ganath had trapped a skykeep, nor why the Deragoth would chase the Hounds of shadow, etc etc

nor did MT explain how the CG moves his warren around, nor how Withal could forge a sword that revives people from Silchas Ruin's shattered swords, nor how Silchas could appear around as a ghost or travel in time, etc etc

nor did HoC explain the Tiste Liosan, nor the purpose of 'Siballe's army of orphans, nor which Crow officer was friends with Bellurdan Skullcrusher, nor what an enk'aral in a TTT pureblood is going to do for Togg&Fan, nor where Greyfrog is from, nor where Osserc is, etc etc

nor did MoI explain who was drawing from Tool's Tellann warren, nor how K'rul made the warrens, nor how the CG was poisoning the warrens around the Pannion Domin, nor why the KCCM undead were not used in the Siege of Setta or before, etc etc

nor did DG explain the result of the Path of Hands (definitively), nor the nature of Tanno magic, etc etc

nor did GotM explain much of anything at all


Saying RG is disappointing because it didn't explain enough mysteries and made new ones... I am amazed you could have made it this far in the series if such a thing disappoints you so.

How can you not be disappointed by it? If he wants to write philosophy on how money and greed can destroy an empire, then do so, but don't make a whole book about, especially when that book is supposed to be epic fantasy. It was boring, and for the most part seemed to be a huge filler probably because he didn't have anything better to write about. Very poorly done, we all saw what money could do to an empire in MT, we didn't need to read an entire book where we see exactly what happens, shit, we already know.

All of the people he's killed off thus far were integral in their death to the plot. They explained something, and shed light on other aspects of the books. The death of Trull or Beak was literally pointless, he decided, "Hey, lets kill these two dudes off because, God forbid, people might like them." Their death didn't show us anything we didn't already know. Coltaine's did, Whiskeyjack's did. For the most part, the people who have died have died to show the reader something that is integral to the plot of the story. Trull's and Beak's death have not.

Okay, let me be a bit more specific then. The book explained nothing. It was basically another MT with a couple twists to it, that were easily seen might I add (e.g. Oh no way, the sisters are definitely not going to break their word and betray eachother, come on.) Part of writing, I feel, is drawing the reader in, and at no point for me, did RG do that. It didn't give me some tid bit of information that made me go, "Wow, whats next?!", it just went into a Nazi-Germany like story for the Letherii's and a typical, "Lets redeem ourselves by killing said 'Nazis'" for the Awl. It was very cliche and extremely disappointing.

I've made it this far in the series because the books have given a little, they've sated my curiosity. RG didn't. It popped a bunch of Barghast up on another bloody continent just for the hell of it, made QB stronger than 3 Goddesses, JUST for the hell of it, and a bunch of other annoying ass things without ONCE, explaining anything at all. Not revealing anything amazing. Comparably, this book is far from good.

I give it to you, it would be just as disappointing to see another book about battles on a distant continent, but then again, it's just as bad to turn an epic fantasy book into a book of philosophy on how evil men and a lot of money can be the downfall of an empire. I just don't see after so many great books preluding this, he can produce something that isn't even on par with the rest.

Of course, this is just my opinion. Still love the series, just very bitter and discouraged by RG.

Please, if TtH the same, or different?

[HoosierDaddy]

RG is my favorite in the series. So, I disagree.

I'll go ahead and expand, because I shouldn't just post that, and move on. This is why I loved RG (everybody has their own reasons, right? so rather than disputing your dislikes, I'll highlight my likes):

1. Bugg and Tehol. Their conversations are my favorite in the entire series. Throw Ubala Pung into the mix and it gets even better. I laughed during every one of these scenes. Tehol's genius, Bugg's dead-pannedness, Ubala's cluelessness, and the scholar (Janath?) provides a nice feminine touch to it all.

2. Feather Witch's comeuppance. I know I wasn't the only person cheering when that psycho lady got smacked down by the Errant.

3. The Azath scene with Kilmandaros & Knuckles, combined with the opening scenes of Anomander and Kilmandaros provides nice background on the Sundering, and legend to Anomander's history of betrayal.

4. Brys return. I love Brys.

5. Quick and Hedge... warren and cusser happy together.

6. The March of the Malazan Marines:
a. Drumroll
b. Demon farmers
c. Hellian's POV
d. Beak's sacrifice and scene in Hood's realm
e. An explanation of how Holds and Warrens interact, or in better terms... DO NOT interact.
f. The sheer ruthlessness of the Marines

7. Icarium: WTF?

8. Karsa non-bragging: "I shall kill you... once."

9. Senior Assessor.

10. "FUCKING DRAGON!"

I didn't really care for the Awl scenes, except for Toc's badassery. Nor for the Shake or Andii scenes, other than Withal's magic trick.

This post has been edited by HoosierDaddy: 28 April 2009 - 06:14 AM

[Assail]

HoosierDaddy, on Apr 27 2009, 09:45 PM, said:

RG is my favorite in the series. So, I disagree.

This is beyond me Each to their own I suppose.

[Aptorian]

Assail, on Apr 28 2009, 02:30 AM, said:

Disappointed by RG? I mean, between QB being able to take on 3 fully fledged Goddesses and wtfpwn them, and Silchas being pretty much butt raped by a couple of cussers and the whole "OMG Redmask is actually a Letherii, so where's the real one?!", I was really let down by it.

I mean, SE killed off a bunch of very cool guys for no apparent reason, ressurected a guy just to have him cut open a bad guys stomach, and for what? The book didn't answer a lot of mysteries, it never explained the KCCM and Redmask, or the Jaghut they found on the Throne of Ice or what was happening surrounding it.

It was an entertaining story, but a huge let down in comparison to the other books. I did, however, enjoy how he basically told us there is gonna be a show down between the Errant and Paran. I'm looking forward to that.

Edit: Also very sad about Beak's death, such an awesome character, reminded me of Ublala Pung.

I agree with most of your complaints. But not quite. I was expecting more bang for my buck. More convergences, more awesome clashes, but this is Erikson we're speaking off so it didn't surprise me when he tricked us. It wasn't a letdown just not at all what I expected. I wanted something rather explosive to come out of the clash between Rhulad, Icarium and Karsa. Instead we got something unexpected, which is what Erikson excells at.

Assail, on Apr 28 2009, 06:37 AM, said:

How can you not be disappointed by it? If he wants to write philosophy on how money and greed can destroy an empire, then do so, but don't make a whole book about, especially when that book is supposed to be epic fantasy. It was boring, and for the most part seemed to be a huge filler probably because he didn't have anything better to write about. Very poorly done, we all saw what money could do to an empire in MT, we didn't need to read an entire book where we see exactly what happens, shit, we already know.

See, this opinion or attitude towards Eriksons writting, that's kinda odd, since all this philosophical mussing has always been apart of his repetoir. Of course I'll agree it's become even more pronounced in RG and trust me its worse in TTH, but what were you expecting. This isn't Robert Jordan or some other run of the mill author. Erikson doesn't write easy reads, or shallow plots. The Edur clash with Letherii culture story was certainly not filler. More like some of the best story writting within fantasy.

You watch how a barbaric society, with a truly ancient heritage and rock solid traditions come in contact with this capitalistic pseudo fascistic society and it tears it apart. It's the total break down of the Edurs beliefs and lifestyles. And it's not even the work of gods, just the evil of man. And yet, it also gave us the end of the Letherii lifestyle aswell, when it tore itself apart from within. I wanted to see the empire fall and I got that. How ever I would perhaps had been a bit more pleased if the end had been a stark raving mad Iccy consuming the capital and surrounding country side in his rage fighting an unkillable Rhulad.

Assail, on Apr 28 2009, 06:37 AM, said:

All of the people he's killed off thus far were integral in their death to the plot. They explained something, and shed light on other aspects of the books. The death of Trull or Beak was literally pointless, he decided, "Hey, lets kill these two dudes off because, God forbid, people might like them." Their death didn't show us anything we didn't already know. Coltaine's did, Whiskeyjack's did. For the most part, the people who have died have died to show the reader something that is integral to the plot of the story. Trull's and Beak's death have not.

Trull I can agree with, that was cruel. But Erikson has explained this. When asked he simply stated this series is a tragedy. His characters will seldom have a happy ending.

Beak how ever... how on earth can you call that death pointless? He saved 800 marines with his own lifeforce. That was a beautiful death.

I thought the death of people like Redmask and the Senior Assessor was more pointless.

Assail, on Apr 28 2009, 06:37 AM, said:

Okay, let me be a bit more specific then. The book explained nothing. It was basically another MT with a couple twists to it, that were easily seen might I add (e.g. Oh no way, the sisters are definitely not going to break their word and betray eachother, come on.) Part of writing, I feel, is drawing the reader in, and at no point for me, did RG do that. It didn't give me some tid bit of information that made me go, "Wow, whats next?!", it just went into a Nazi-Germany like story for the Letherii's and a typical, "Lets redeem ourselves by killing said 'Nazis'" for the Awl. It was very cliche and extremely disappointing.

Uhm, I think you just need some time to think about this.

Things we learned or is to be continued:

We learned that the Imass ghosts we meet in MT were living in a pocket warren surrounding the last gates into Starvald Demelain.

We learned that all dragons that were sealed inside SD are dead. Starved to death it would seem.

We learned that Scabbies soul had been trapped in a blade and was given to one of these Imass.

We learned that father shadow had been killed by Killy.

We learned that there is probably not a Child of Indescribable Terror.

We learned that the KCCM are firstborn of Dragons.

We learned that the Dragons layed waste to a great many KCCM civilizations and this forced them under ground.

We learned that the KCCM are outsiders coming from their own world, with its own fauna, like the lizard mice.

We learned that Ruin negotiated with the KCCM and had a lot of interaction with them.

We learned that death lies on top of the ancient jaghut bridge of death and that it borders omotose phellack and the Nascent Realm.

We learned that Hood is in fact a Jaghut and most likely its his corpse sitting on the throne of ice.

We learned that Hood was probably once the king of ice and jaghuts. He gave up when the Imass killed his family.

We learned what an ascendant BB was capable of.

We learned that the Refugium brings people back to life.

We learned that Quick Ben has grown tremendously in power. Or that he was always capable, but never had the incentive.

We learned that Onrack concieved a child with Kilava.

We learned what the Imass were like before they became undead killing machines.

We learned that cusser vs gods equals ascendant minced meat.

We learned that there is TTT blood in Icarium.

We learned how you kill Rhulad.

We learned how you break a sword of power.

We learned that Killymandaros is most likely the mother of all Forkrul Assail.

We learned that Killymandaros is trapped inside a sea azath.

We learned that the KCCM are still alive.

We learned that the KCCM were not wiped out by the Tiste.

We learned a Matron of the KCCM existed and she wanted a Mortal Sword.

We learned what happened to the Grey Swords.

We learned what happened to Kilava and Tool.

We learned what happened to the White Face Barghast.

We learned who the Tiste in the Blue Rose Mountains was.

We learned of the cult of the black winged lord.

We learned that there was a new active gate into KG.

We learned about the shake.

We learned that there are KCCM eggs in the Lether Sea.

We learned what happened to the Demon princes from MT.

We learned that Moranth Munition Drums are bad for you.

We learned that Icairum once stayed with K'rull.

We learned that Icarium built a big ass machine under Lether.

We learned that the Errant walked into the world to escape his worshippers.

We learned the ancient name of Shield Anvils and the name connected with Seguleh and the Cabal in Darujistan.

We learned what happened to Brys fingers.

We learned that Emurhlan is active and it sought a Mortal Sword.

We learned that there is probably a closer connection between the sons of darkness and father light.

We learned that the Seguleh 11th is a woman.

We learned that the purpose of Kettle was to seed an Azath over the gates of SD.

We learned what the gods agreement was in the beginning of RG.

We learned that there is a cult that worships Icarium.

We learned that Mocra is an intelligent and self aware construct made by K'rull.

We learned that there was a war between the Liosan and Forkrul Assail called the Justice Wars.

We learned that Bottle has a terrible destiny that could be the death of people.

We learned that the Elder God Sechul Lath(sp?) is most likely a Forkrul Assail living in the sea azath.

Can't think of more right now, but this is a pretty big list...

Assail, on Apr 28 2009, 06:37 AM, said:

I've made it this far in the series because the books have given a little, they've sated my curiosity. RG didn't. It popped a bunch of Barghast up on another bloody continent just for the hell of it, made QB stronger than 3 Goddesses, JUST for the hell of it, and a bunch of other annoying ass things without ONCE, explaining anything at all. Not revealing anything amazing. Comparably, this book is far from good.

RG sets the stage for Dust of Dreams, remember that. There is a reason to why the Barghast came to Lether.

QB isn't stronger than the three sisters. He was how ever able to outsmart them. The clashes between mortal and gods in this book further developed the notion that the new have replaced the old and the time of the elder beings is passed.

Quick Ben didn't win because he was stronger, he won because the Sisters underestimated him. After all what could one mortal mage possibly do to them. So Quick Ben threw a thousand tons of earth in their faces and then blasted them senseless. Then Hedge did the real damage.

Silchas Ruin attacked the city in dragon form and wasn't expecting to face any real danger from such a weak race as the human. And again, he underestimated mankind, and he potshot with a couple of cusser and then got a dozen warrens thrown in the face. If you notice how ever. That didn't kill him, he just flew off after that.

Assail, on Apr 28 2009, 06:37 AM, said:

Please, if TtH the same, or different?

TTH is even worse if you didn't like RG, and there's much, much more talk in it. How ever there's also so much awesome it can barely be contained.

[Cusser]

Aptorian, on Apr 28 2009, 08:41 AM, said:

TTH is even worse if you didn't like RG, and there's much, much more talk in it. How ever there's also so much awesome it can barely be contained.

We learned that this last statement holds true

We learned that Apt most likely wooped your a*** Assail (happy hugging smiley)

We also learned that the sayings of the fool most likely originates from Tehol

Lastly we learned that in a series thats 10 books long, the 7th book actually ties up more of the loose ends in an universe so vast and epic that we might feel as you did, Assail, that we cant relate to it the same way when it is no longer expanding (arguably) at the same speed as in the first books. Allthough we accept the notion of closure in the horizon

[Excellence]

nor did BH explain the skykeeps in the Imperial Warren, nor what happened to Oponn, nor what Leoman/Dunsparrow will be done with in relation to Hood, nor what the death of Sorrit means, nor why the Short-tails at Ugarat were freed, nor why Ganath had trapped a skykeep, nor why the Deragoth would chase the Hounds of shadow, etc etc

Nothinghas happened to Oponn. A grumpy archmage just evicted them, nothing more. The skykeeps are an ongoing intrigue, you were expecting immediate revelations? Leonman is part of Triss' plans, not Hood. Sorrti was a guardian of the Serc warren's Osric's warren. The Chained Bloke has launched strikes in a war. By taking down a caretaker you weaken the warren for invasion. That was explained right then. Why do you want to know why Ganath trapped a skykeep? We know the Jaghut helped destroy the few Dinos left in their time. Why wouldn't the dark dogs attack the shadow dogs? Their rivals, and weaker ones.

nor did MT explain how the CG moves his warren around, nor how Withal could forge a sword that revives people from Silchas Ruin's shattered swords, nor how Silchas could appear around as a ghost or travel in time, etc etc

He lives in a pocket warren that wanders around on its own course. We've been told this. Ruin ghosted to Trull through the azath, that was weakening. This was brought up in Reaper Gale. Ruin didn't even seem aware of it. He was evasive about it.

nor did HoC explain the Tiste Liosan, nor the purpose of 'Siballe's army of orphans, nor which Crow officer was friends with Bellurdan Skullcrusher, nor what an enk'aral in a TTT pureblood is going to do for Togg&Fan, nor where Greyfrog is from, nor where Osserc is, etc etc

What's there to explain about the Liosan? Their not major players. What do you think the orphan collection was for? Think, man. Their bum kissing the Chained Bloke. They are reject kids, outcast. What does the Bloke do? Patron the "broken." The Wolves wanted a mortal sword. It's the latest fad, don't you know that? In a war, the pantheon fights through chosen people. Most seem to have them. Some call them high priests, some destriants. Frick sake, Greyfrog's a nefarious creature! What exactly is there to know. Ossie is wandering around. We need to know his travel itinerary?

nor did MoI explain who was drawing from Tool's Tellann warren, nor how K'rul made the warrens, nor how the CG was poisoning the warrens around the Pannion Domin, nor why the KCCM undead were not used in the Siege of Setta or before, etc etc

Dumb questions. Not even going to bothere there...

nor did DG explain the result of the Path of Hands (definitively), nor the nature of Tanno magic, etc etc

Reread the book. The Tanno rituals are explained on more than one occasion. Why did Shadowthrone manipulate the Path of Hands? Because hundreds of hostile shapeshifters are a THREAT. They're warren travellers. The panthoen use warrens too.

Also... it's heavily hinted Giggles has some affiliation for the Nameless Ones, for all his black hatred of them, who love imprisoning powerful threats... hint-hint

nor did GotM explain much of anything at all

Bullcrap. There was heavy foreshadowing all round, of future books even.

The death of Trull was not pointless. It was brilliant. Sad, but fantastic. ANYONE at ANYTIME can die.

It's electric reading!

Vader's roasted nuts, you got a prob with Beak? He burned his magic to shield them too hard and too deeply. Of course he killed himself. It was well written and done.

EDIT: It's too late at night to correct my typos I can see now...

This post has been edited by Excellence: 28 April 2009 - 01:57 PM

[Grief]

Yes, I felt some parts of RG were anti-climactic, particularly Ruin and the sisters. Cussers are just irritating tbh, the sisters yes, they were arrogant and fought in a stupid way, but still, a rather dull moment. DIdn't feel at all like hedge and QB were ever in any risk during it.

I thought the Beak/Trull thing was good actually, because it showed that not every main character will die in an epic way, some will just fall normally, like kallor says "one stray arrow". Not all deaths have meaning and this makes them often more poignant, which I felt worked well.

[D'rek]

Yeah, there is the issue in that every problem faced by the malazans except one was solved with cussers...

On the flip side, I actually found it intriguing how there so much build-up for the Sisters betraying each other, since that was all they talked about, and then they didn't really end up doing so. Sheltatha may have ensured that Menandore died with her, but until that point they never really clashed.

Excellence, on Apr 28 2009, 08:51 AM, said:

Excellence's Entire Post

All of your answers are skin-deep ones, but I was inferring to the *real* answers. Yes, obviously the Teblor orphans are for the CG, that's pretty freaking obvious, but he hasn't used them for anything yet and it still hasn't been explained just what he did/would do with them. Like Pannion, the corrupted new Rashan cult, etc. everything in the CG's plans has multiple purposes at different levels of his plan. If saying "the Teblor kids are for the CG because they're broken" is an explanation, then RG was damn-well full of explanations, such as: "Redmask is working for the KCCM". That's a skin-deep explanation, but obviously it leaves the reader wanting more and that's what I was getting at.

[Aptorian]

What I liked about the munitions in RG is that they show why the Malazan Empire was able to dominate its enemies even when the T'lan Imass left them. Fighting an unprepared foe, the Moranth Munition is a truly terrifying weapon. You're rushing an unknown foe in a turttle formation with superior numbers and suddenly this little clay ball lands at your feet and half your squad is simply GONE and the rest of you are on the ground, burned, bruised and disoriented. Then in comes the short swords.

I loved watching how the Marines work. We saw a little of it in Y'Ghatan, but it was in this book we saw what the Malazan Marines were capable of when they were cut loose and allowed to do what they do best.

[Assail]

Aptorian, on Apr 27 2009, 11:41 PM, said:

Assail, on Apr 28 2009, 02:30 AM, said:

Disappointed by RG? I mean, between QB being able to take on 3 fully fledged Goddesses and wtfpwn them, and Silchas being pretty much butt raped by a couple of cussers and the whole "OMG Redmask is actually a Letherii, so where's the real one?!", I was really let down by it.

I mean, SE killed off a bunch of very cool guys for no apparent reason, ressurected a guy just to have him cut open a bad guys stomach, and for what? The book didn't answer a lot of mysteries, it never explained the KCCM and Redmask, or the Jaghut they found on the Throne of Ice or what was happening surrounding it.

It was an entertaining story, but a huge let down in comparison to the other books. I did, however, enjoy how he basically told us there is gonna be a show down between the Errant and Paran. I'm looking forward to that.

Edit: Also very sad about Beak's death, such an awesome character, reminded me of Ublala Pung.

I agree with most of your complaints. But not quite. I was expecting more bang for my buck. More convergences, more awesome clashes, but this is Erikson we're speaking off so it didn't surprise me when he tricked us. It wasn't a letdown just not at all what I expected. I wanted something rather explosive to come out of the clash between Rhulad, Icarium and Karsa. Instead we got something unexpected, which is what Erikson excells at.

Assail, on Apr 28 2009, 06:37 AM, said:

How can you not be disappointed by it? If he wants to write philosophy on how money and greed can destroy an empire, then do so, but don't make a whole book about, especially when that book is supposed to be epic fantasy. It was boring, and for the most part seemed to be a huge filler probably because he didn't have anything better to write about. Very poorly done, we all saw what money could do to an empire in MT, we didn't need to read an entire book where we see exactly what happens, shit, we already know.

See, this opinion or attitude towards Eriksons writting, that's kinda odd, since all this philosophical mussing has always been apart of his repetoir. Of course I'll agree it's become even more pronounced in RG and trust me its worse in TTH, but what were you expecting. This isn't Robert Jordan or some other run of the mill author. Erikson doesn't write easy reads, or shallow plots. The Edur clash with Letherii culture story was certainly not filler. More like some of the best story writting within fantasy.

You watch how a barbaric society, with a truly ancient heritage and rock solid traditions come in contact with this capitalistic pseudo fascistic society and it tears it apart. It's the total break down of the Edurs beliefs and lifestyles. And it's not even the work of gods, just the evil of man. And yet, it also gave us the end of the Letherii lifestyle aswell, when it tore itself apart from within. I wanted to see the empire fall and I got that. How ever I would perhaps had been a bit more pleased if the end had been a stark raving mad Iccy consuming the capital and surrounding country side in his rage fighting an unkillable Rhulad.

Assail, on Apr 28 2009, 06:37 AM, said:

All of the people he's killed off thus far were integral in their death to the plot. They explained something, and shed light on other aspects of the books. The death of Trull or Beak was literally pointless, he decided, "Hey, lets kill these two dudes off because, God forbid, people might like them." Their death didn't show us anything we didn't already know. Coltaine's did, Whiskeyjack's did. For the most part, the people who have died have died to show the reader something that is integral to the plot of the story. Trull's and Beak's death have not.

Trull I can agree with, that was cruel. But Erikson has explained this. When asked he simply stated this series is a tragedy. His characters will seldom have a happy ending.

Beak how ever... how on earth can you call that death pointless? He saved 800 marines with his own lifeforce. That was a beautiful death.

I thought the death of people like Redmask and the Senior Assessor was more pointless.

Assail, on Apr 28 2009, 06:37 AM, said:

Okay, let me be a bit more specific then. The book explained nothing. It was basically another MT with a couple twists to it, that were easily seen might I add (e.g. Oh no way, the sisters are definitely not going to break their word and betray eachother, come on.) Part of writing, I feel, is drawing the reader in, and at no point for me, did RG do that. It didn't give me some tid bit of information that made me go, "Wow, whats next?!", it just went into a Nazi-Germany like story for the Letherii's and a typical, "Lets redeem ourselves by killing said 'Nazis'" for the Awl. It was very cliche and extremely disappointing.

Uhm, I think you just need some time to think about this.

Things we learned or is to be continued:

We learned that the Imass ghosts we meet in MT were living in a pocket warren surrounding the last gates into Starvald Demelain.

We learned that all dragons that were sealed inside SD are dead. Starved to death it would seem.

We learned that Scabbies soul had been trapped in a blade and was given to one of these Imass.

We learned that father shadow had been killed by Killy.

We learned that there is probably not a Child of Indescribable Terror.

We learned that the KCCM are firstborn of Dragons.

We learned that the Dragons layed waste to a great many KCCM civilizations and this forced them under ground.

We learned that the KCCM are outsiders coming from their own world, with its own fauna, like the lizard mice.

We learned that Ruin negotiated with the KCCM and had a lot of interaction with them.

We learned that death lies on top of the ancient jaghut bridge of death and that it borders omotose phellack and the Nascent Realm.

We learned that Hood is in fact a Jaghut and most likely its his corpse sitting on the throne of ice.

We learned that Hood was probably once the king of ice and jaghuts. He gave up when the Imass killed his family.

We learned what an ascendant BB was capable of.

We learned that the Refugium brings people back to life.

We learned that Quick Ben has grown tremendously in power. Or that he was always capable, but never had the incentive.

We learned that Onrack concieved a child with Kilava.

We learned what the Imass were like before they became undead killing machines.

We learned that cusser vs gods equals ascendant minced meat.

We learned that there is TTT blood in Icarium.

We learned how you kill Rhulad.

We learned how you break a sword of power.

We learned that Killymandaros is most likely the mother of all Forkrul Assail.

We learned that Killymandaros is trapped inside a sea azath.

We learned that the KCCM are still alive.

We learned that the KCCM were not wiped out by the Tiste.

We learned a Matron of the KCCM existed and she wanted a Mortal Sword.

We learned what happened to the Grey Swords.

We learned what happened to Kilava and Tool.

We learned what happened to the White Face Barghast.

We learned who the Tiste in the Blue Rose Mountains was.

We learned of the cult of the black winged lord.

We learned that there was a new active gate into KG.

We learned about the shake.

We learned that there are KCCM eggs in the Lether Sea.

We learned what happened to the Demon princes from MT.

We learned that Moranth Munition Drums are bad for you.

We learned that Icairum once stayed with K'rull.

We learned that Icarium built a big ass machine under Lether.

We learned that the Errant walked into the world to escape his worshippers.

We learned the ancient name of Shield Anvils and the name connected with Seguleh and the Cabal in Darujistan.

We learned what happened to Brys fingers.

We learned that Emurhlan is active and it sought a Mortal Sword.

We learned that there is probably a closer connection between the sons of darkness and father light.

We learned that the Seguleh 11th is a woman.

We learned that the purpose of Kettle was to seed an Azath over the gates of SD.

We learned what the gods agreement was in the beginning of RG.

We learned that there is a cult that worships Icarium.

We learned that Mocra is an intelligent and self aware construct made by K'rull.

We learned that there was a war between the Liosan and Forkrul Assail called the Justice Wars.

We learned that Bottle has a terrible destiny that could be the death of people.

We learned that the Elder God Sechul Lath(sp?) is most likely a Forkrul Assail living in the sea azath.

Can't think of more right now, but this is a pretty big list...

Assail, on Apr 28 2009, 06:37 AM, said:

I've made it this far in the series because the books have given a little, they've sated my curiosity. RG didn't. It popped a bunch of Barghast up on another bloody continent just for the hell of it, made QB stronger than 3 Goddesses, JUST for the hell of it, and a bunch of other annoying ass things without ONCE, explaining anything at all. Not revealing anything amazing. Comparably, this book is far from good.

RG sets the stage for Dust of Dreams, remember that. There is a reason to why the Barghast came to Lether.

QB isn't stronger than the three sisters. He was how ever able to outsmart them. The clashes between mortal and gods in this book further developed the notion that the new have replaced the old and the time of the elder beings is passed.

Quick Ben didn't win because he was stronger, he won because the Sisters underestimated him. After all what could one mortal mage possibly do to them. So Quick Ben threw a thousand tons of earth in their faces and then blasted them senseless. Then Hedge did the real damage.

Silchas Ruin attacked the city in dragon form and wasn't expecting to face any real danger from such a weak race as the human. And again, he underestimated mankind, and he potshot with a couple of cusser and then got a dozen warrens thrown in the face. If you notice how ever. That didn't kill him, he just flew off after that.

Assail, on Apr 28 2009, 06:37 AM, said:

Please, if TtH the same, or different?

TTH is even worse if you didn't like RG, and there's much, much more talk in it. How ever there's also so much awesome it can barely be contained.

See, I disagree. I'll admit to some philosophical musing's in the other book, but not nearly as much as this one. It was consumed by it, it was WAY to overdone if you ask me. I agree, though, he doesn't write easy books to read, and this wasn't an easy book to read. Props to him for having the skill to write literature that challenges the reader. That's not my issue though, I'm more annoyed that this book took a turn down the alley that ended in it being a massive philosophical (Which I don't really have too much of an interest in) piece poorly covered up with some fantasy elements. It was really disappointing to have to read 1200 pages on how greed and evil can destroy things. The least he could have done was provide some more entertaining aspects in it. Don't get me wrong, there were some great parts, but largely I was sitting there wanting to get through whole chapters just so I could read something that wasn't mind numbingly boring.

Concerning Beak's death, I just found it so... stupid, to have someone like QB, who has really not shown any type of reasoning behind his growth in power blow three Goddesses out of the sky without breaking a sweat and then bring Beak into a story, who is obviously an amazingly powerful, natural High Mage and have HIM die by a simple onslaught of hold magic, especially when it was clear Beak had mastery over more than one type of warren. I agree, was a beautiful death in terms of sacrifice for the marines, but it was pointless when a couple hundred pages later you're going to have a guy who has shown no evidence concerning his leap in power blowing the shit up out of a bunch of goddesses that are hundreds of thousands of years old. I also agree, Redmask and Senior Assessor were just as stupid in my opinion.

I'm not going to (But if you insist I will ) make a list of all the things that he left out in this book in comparison to every other novel after GotM. It would go on for pages. I felt cheated by RG. As for some of the stuff in your, how did you learn (In RG) that Knuckles was a Fork'rul Assail Elder God? How did you gather that it was Hoods old body that sat on the Ice Throne? And that he abandoned Omtose Phellack? Are these TtH revelations? Or did I miss something? Also, how did we know shes the 11th? And I thought she fought Rhulad on the second day, how the HELL did she walk out that gate still alive? :S

As for the other things in your list, some of them were things we could easily piece together. We all knew it was Kilmandaros who killed Bloodeye with her fist, we knew what the Black Winged cult thing was, it was obvious.

As for the rest, well hell yeah, I loved seeing how marines really worked. It was a great insight. Don't get me wrong, I'm just griping a bit about RG because it disappointed me in comparison to the other books. I still love the series

See, that's where I disagree. Even before they betrayed eachother (sisters) they still threw a huge amount of sorcery at QB, and he withstood, so it wasn't just outsmarting them, it was also him making it through the torrent that was attempting to kill him that was their sorcery ;P

SE really needs to drop the whole munition things now, the Moranth are long gone, and cussers being able to take down Gods is just ridiculous.

/endrantfornow

[beru]

just a qiuck point
the sisters dident hit qb with maick he hit them in their jaws forcing their heads in the air making the breath go stray...

Spoiler

and i think you somewhere have learned that hood once was king of the ice... then died

Mod edit, this is the RG forum and, though there was speculation about certain things, I believe they weren't cleared up till later.

-Grief.

[Aptorian]

Assail, on Apr 28 2009, 09:56 PM, said:

Concerning Beak's death, I just found it so... stupid, to have someone like QB, who has really not shown any type of reasoning behind his growth in power blow three Goddesses out of the sky without breaking a sweat and then bring Beak into a story, who is obviously an amazingly powerful, natural High Mage and have HIM die by a simple onslaught of hold magic, especially when it was clear Beak had mastery over more than one type of warren. I agree, was a beautiful death in terms of sacrifice for the marines, but it was pointless when a couple hundred pages later you're going to have a guy who has shown no evidence concerning his leap in power blowing the shit up out of a bunch of goddesses that are hundreds of thousands of years old. I also agree, Redmask and Senior Assessor were just as stupid in my opinion.

Quick Ben was always a wild card. It is very possible that he always had the power to do what he did in RG. But he either A) Was afraid to do it because he is feared losing control, just like how he never uses his soletaken form B ) Never wanted to reveal his strength out of fear of being picked out by gods or the empire that works for. He was a High Mage once before and faked his own death to get the bulls eye of his ass. C) He was afraid of being consumed by the power because his mortal body is unable to handle that amount of power.

Quick remarks that the encounter in the cave with Iccy made him feel stronger, meaner. This is of course because he stretched himself. It's one of the steps towards ascendancy, to break your own limitations. Quicks body was broken but survived channeling all that power, and that exertion left his body and mind stronger.

Beak on the other hand did not die to some "simple onslaught of hold magic". He used all his warrens and his own life force to create a shield that guarded the Marines against a ritual that took weeks to weave and build. This is the kind of ritual that took out thousands of Letherii and Edur in giant waves, or the destroyed the Edur settlements. To have stood against that kind of power is one hell of a feat.

Assail, on Apr 28 2009, 09:56 PM, said:

As for some of the stuff in your, how did you learn (In RG) that Knuckles was a Fork'rul Assail Elder God? How did you gather that it was Hoods old body that sat on the Ice Throne? And that he abandoned Omtose Phellack? Are these TtH revelations? Or did I miss something? Also, how did we know shes the 11th? And I thought she fought Rhulad on the second day, how the HELL did she walk out that gate still alive? :S

That Knuckles was a Forkrul Assail was obvious from the description we hear of him. That he is possibly the Elder God Sechul Leth(sp?) we learned when Killy starts to speak his name. She says "something something, sech..." and then Knuckles interrupt her before she pronounces his full name.

That it is Hoods body on the throne is guess work. I think Erikson may have confirmed it some times unofficially. But all the clues add up. Hood is the logical and most tragic answer.

We know that what ever Jaghut it was abandoned Omotose Phellack because the Imass described how he gathered his dead loved ones, sat down on the throne, and just gave up. This would fit Hood becoming the death wanderer. Eventually becoming the God of Death.

There is a description of the Segulehs marks, there's eleven or so of them. She never fought Rhulad, she left before her chance arrived. The explanation for this most likely being that she bowed out of respect for Karsa. He beat her in a duel and as such he earned the right to fight Rhulad. I'm sure having been on the recieving end of Karsa's skill she decided that there wouldn't be an emperor left to fight after Karsa had met Rhulad.

Assail, on Apr 28 2009, 09:56 PM, said:

As for the other things in your list, some of them were things we could easily piece together. We all knew it was Kilmandaros who killed Bloodeye with her fist, we knew what the Black Winged cult thing was, it was obvious.

We didn't even know who Killymandaros was before RG, we'd never seen or heard of her before then, only mentioned on the Draconean Family Tree.

And how would we had known that the Blue Rose were an actual cult of Anomander Rake, when supposedly they never met.

[Assail]

Aptorian, on Apr 28 2009, 01:46 PM, said:

Assail, on Apr 28 2009, 09:56 PM, said:

Concerning Beak's death, I just found it so... stupid, to have someone like QB, who has really not shown any type of reasoning behind his growth in power blow three Goddesses out of the sky without breaking a sweat and then bring Beak into a story, who is obviously an amazingly powerful, natural High Mage and have HIM die by a simple onslaught of hold magic, especially when it was clear Beak had mastery over more than one type of warren. I agree, was a beautiful death in terms of sacrifice for the marines, but it was pointless when a couple hundred pages later you're going to have a guy who has shown no evidence concerning his leap in power blowing the shit up out of a bunch of goddesses that are hundreds of thousands of years old. I also agree, Redmask and Senior Assessor were just as stupid in my opinion.

Quick Ben was always a wild card. It is very possible that he always had the power to do what he did in RG. But he either A) Was afraid to do it because he is feared losing control, just like how he never uses his soletaken form B ) Never wanted to reveal his strength out of fear of being picked out by gods or the empire that works for. He was a High Mage once before and faked his own death to get the bulls eye of his ass. C) He was afraid of being consumed by the power because his mortal body is unable to handle that amount of power.

Quick remarks that the encounter in the cave with Iccy made him feel stronger, meaner. This is of course because he stretched himself. It's one of the steps towards ascendancy, to break your own limitations. Quicks body was broken but survived channeling all that power, and that exertion left his body and mind stronger.

Beak on the other hand did not die to some "simple onslaught of hold magic". He used all his warrens and his own life force to create a shield that guarded the Marines against a ritual that took weeks to weave and build. This is the kind of ritual that took out thousands of Letherii and Edur in giant waves, or the destroyed the Edur settlements. To have stood against that kind of power is one hell of a feat.

Assail, on Apr 28 2009, 09:56 PM, said:

As for some of the stuff in your, how did you learn (In RG) that Knuckles was a Fork'rul Assail Elder God? How did you gather that it was Hoods old body that sat on the Ice Throne? And that he abandoned Omtose Phellack? Are these TtH revelations? Or did I miss something? Also, how did we know shes the 11th? And I thought she fought Rhulad on the second day, how the HELL did she walk out that gate still alive? :S

That Knuckles was a Forkrul Assail was obvious from the description we hear of him. That he is possibly the Elder God Sechul Leth(sp?) we learned when Killy starts to speak his name. She says "something something, sech..." and then Knuckles interrupt her before she pronounces his full name.

That it is Hoods body on the throne is guess work. I think Erikson may have confirmed it some times unofficially. But all the clues add up. Hood is the logical and most tragic answer.

We know that what ever Jaghut it was abandoned Omotose Phellack because the Imass described how he gathered his dead loved ones, sat down on the throne, and just gave up. This would fit Hood becoming the death wanderer. Eventually becoming the God of Death.

There is a description of the Segulehs marks, there's eleven or so of them. She never fought Rhulad, she left before her chance arrived. The explanation for this most likely being that she bowed out of respect for Karsa. He beat her in a duel and as such he earned the right to fight Rhulad. I'm sure having been on the recieving end of Karsa's skill she decided that there wouldn't be an emperor left to fight after Karsa had met Rhulad.

Assail, on Apr 28 2009, 09:56 PM, said:

As for the other things in your list, some of them were things we could easily piece together. We all knew it was Kilmandaros who killed Bloodeye with her fist, we knew what the Black Winged cult thing was, it was obvious.

We didn't even know who Killymandaros was before RG, we'd never seen or heard of her before then, only mentioned on the Draconean Family Tree.

And how would we had known that the Blue Rose were an actual cult of Anomander Rake, when supposedly they never met.

Woah woah woah, QB has a soletaken form? I MUST have missed something.

I get what you're saying concerning Beak, however, if he had the amount of power that SE made him out to have (A hell of a lot of warrens, possibly as many or more than QB) then that shouldn't have been an issue.

I remember Kilmandaros being cut off in the middle of Sech, but I never have heard reference to him before this. It's possible I've simply forgotten, but I don't think there's been any mention of an Elder Fork'rul Assail God. Please correct me if I'm wrong!

".... and on her face was an enamel mask with a modest array of painted sigis."

Page 1185, RG. Middle of page.

As for Killmandaros, when she was first described in tBH, I knew she killed him. So sorry, that was my own revelation. Call it a hunch, but I knew it was her from the get go.

Are you telling me that you had no idea who the cult was? A bunch of people descended from Tiste Andii who worshipped a 'Black Winged Lord'. Considering Andarist was known by them to be 'mad', and Silchas was killed in the betrayal. Who else could a bunch of Tiste Andii be worshipping as their God besides MD? That was made perfectly clear to me at least

This post has been edited by Assail: 28 April 2009 - 09:10 PM

[D'rek]

Assail, on Apr 28 2009, 04:08 PM, said:

Woah woah woah, QB has a soletaken form? I MUST have missed something.

I remember Kilmandaros being cut off in the middle of Sech, but I never have heard reference to him before this. It's possible I've simply forgotten, but I don't think there's been any mention of an Elder Fork'rul Assail God. Please correct me if I'm wrong!

Assail, on Apr 28 2009, 02:56 PM, said:

[...] As for some of the stuff in your, how did you learn (In RG) that Knuckles was a Fork'rul Assail Elder God? How did you gather that it was Hoods old body that sat on the Ice Throne? And that he abandoned Omtose Phellack? Are these TtH revelations? Or did I miss something? Also, how did we know shes the 11th? And I thought she fought Rhulad on the second day, how the HELL did she walk out that gate still alive? :S

See, this is why you need to not just skip all the supposed "philosophical" stuff. "Oh, Hedge is ranting about life and death, I think I'll skip 10 pages." and then you don't realize Hood was the Ice Thron Jaghut, etc etc...

[Assail]

D'rek, on Apr 28 2009, 02:26 PM, said:

Assail, on Apr 28 2009, 04:08 PM, said:

Woah woah woah, QB has a soletaken form? I MUST have missed something.

I remember Kilmandaros being cut off in the middle of Sech, but I never have heard reference to him before this. It's possible I've simply forgotten, but I don't think there's been any mention of an Elder Fork'rul Assail God. Please correct me if I'm wrong!

Assail, on Apr 28 2009, 02:56 PM, said:

[...] As for some of the stuff in your, how did you learn (In RG) that Knuckles was a Fork'rul Assail Elder God? How did you gather that it was Hoods old body that sat on the Ice Throne? And that he abandoned Omtose Phellack? Are these TtH revelations? Or did I miss something? Also, how did we know shes the 11th? And I thought she fought Rhulad on the second day, how the HELL did she walk out that gate still alive? :S

See, this is why you need to not just skip all the supposed "philosophical" stuff. "Oh, Hedge is ranting about life and death, I think I'll skip 10 pages." and then you don't realize Hood was the Ice Thron Jaghut, etc etc...

I didn't skip anything, I never do. Still I didn't catch who it might have been. I do a lot of late night reading, so I might have missed it due to tiredness. Anyone want to link the passage?

Edit: Still trippin about QBs soletaken form and shiz. Where is this revealed in RG?

This post has been edited by Assail: 28 April 2009 - 09:29 PM

[Aptorian]

One of the souls that Quick shifted was a Soletaken Priestess. There never was any real mention of it, I think, before the confirmation in RG when Hedge calls him a soletaken rat or something like that. Of course there are some peculiar... hints in BH.

More warrens does not equal more power. Beak was a great talent, but never described as a big power. High Mage does not mean more bang for your buck necessarily. By the end of RG he was out of control, having drawn too much power protecting the marines. He would have died no matter what.

Sech is also a god mentioned in the Draconean Family Tree.

[Assail]

Aptorian, on Apr 28 2009, 02:29 PM, said:

One of the souls that Quick shifted was a Soletaken Priestess. There never was any real mention of it, I think, before the confirmation in RG when Hedge calls him a soletaken rat or something like that. Of course there are some peculiar... hints in BH.

More warrens does not equal more power. Beak was a great talent, but never described as a big power. High Mage does not mean more bang for your buck necessarily. By the end of RG he was out of control, having drawn too much power protecting the marines. He would have died no matter what.

Sech is also a god mentioned in the Draconean Family Tree.

Ah I feel ya now. Ah well, I'm sure it'll be revealed soon enough. One moment QB is going to be getting owned then he's gonna veer into his soletaken form and lay out some fools.

Ah see that's where I went wrong then. I assumed the more warrens you could draw upon, the more powerful you were.

I'll have to check that tree out, I haven't looked at it.