[Omtose]

Like I said I'm not done, its not a complete case, I just ran out of time, sorry about that. I will finish it off tomorrow when I have a chance, I just wanted to get something put forth for you guys to take a look at and discuss. Like I said feel free to add anything or pick up where I left off. Okay and now I really am off to bed!

Edit to add: If someone comes up with a decent case on another person by the time I get up in the morning I will happily consider that too.

This post has been edited by Omtose: 28 April 2009 - 05:42 AM

[Ruse]

Serc, on Apr 27 2009, 10:25 PM, said:

Ruse, on Apr 28 2009, 06:48 AM, said:

Tellan, on Apr 27 2009, 07:36 PM, said:

Ruse, on Apr 27 2009, 09:44 PM, said:

Wow, Shadow I was considering making a point about you pointing a lot of fingers at different people today, but you went and reviewed everyone so I guess that's out.

I read over Barghast who is the lowest poster (by one or two) and noticed he made a couple comments about not looking at low posters early on and now he ends up one. Perhaps setting the stage in our minds so he can float without much contribution? He's also tried to make sure we take as long as possible on the hammer a couple different times now, which seems strange. I understand the premise it just seems like he could be stalling for someone to get on.

It seems like the biggest case is still on D'riss and I think it's still appropriate even if it's wrong. It is where the Mockra case started from and is a lesson in don't be overtly sympish even in jest because that person was scum and if that person wasn't scum you just got an inno lynched.

eh, there's a fine line between being sympish and RPing.
I don't blame D'riss for it too much, since my own behaviour when RI often seems to raise hackles of some players.

sorry for not contributin more today, I'm around, but have a killer headache.

This reads as a slip to me. You aren't RI this game?

Interesting slip, although bit of a tricky one - let's try not to out roled players if possible. Although little slips like that have been very telling in the past.

I thought about that but does a roled inno player go emo and offer to vote himself off day 2? I already pointed out it happened in Vamps when Malaese got all butthurt Day 2, so it could be a viable scum tactic this game to try and hide behind the same thing. So if you believe it's a slip and he's not roleless or roled inno it seems pretty scummy.

[Serc]

Ruse, on Apr 28 2009, 08:10 AM, said:

Serc, on Apr 27 2009, 10:25 PM, said:

Ruse, on Apr 28 2009, 06:48 AM, said:

Tellan, on Apr 27 2009, 07:36 PM, said:

Ruse, on Apr 27 2009, 09:44 PM, said:

Wow, Shadow I was considering making a point about you pointing a lot of fingers at different people today, but you went and reviewed everyone so I guess that's out.

I read over Barghast who is the lowest poster (by one or two) and noticed he made a couple comments about not looking at low posters early on and now he ends up one. Perhaps setting the stage in our minds so he can float without much contribution? He's also tried to make sure we take as long as possible on the hammer a couple different times now, which seems strange. I understand the premise it just seems like he could be stalling for someone to get on.

It seems like the biggest case is still on D'riss and I think it's still appropriate even if it's wrong. It is where the Mockra case started from and is a lesson in don't be overtly sympish even in jest because that person was scum and if that person wasn't scum you just got an inno lynched.

eh, there's a fine line between being sympish and RPing.
I don't blame D'riss for it too much, since my own behaviour when RI often seems to raise hackles of some players.

sorry for not contributin more today, I'm around, but have a killer headache.

This reads as a slip to me. You aren't RI this game?

Interesting slip, although bit of a tricky one - let's try not to out roled players if possible. Although little slips like that have been very telling in the past.

I thought about that but does a roled inno player go emo and offer to vote himself off day 2? I already pointed out it happened in Vamps when Malaese got all butthurt Day 2, so it could be a viable scum tactic this game to try and hide behind the same thing. So if you believe it's a slip and he's not roleless or roled inno it seems pretty scummy.

True, it's also a risky tactic for scum to try use (it put him at L-1 already) and you could say that asking to be killed raised the hackles of some players. It's very meta, but something similar happened in the Ambergris game and the innos let it slide, losing the game.

[Ruse]

Serc, on Apr 27 2009, 11:30 PM, said:

Ruse, on Apr 28 2009, 08:10 AM, said:

Serc, on Apr 27 2009, 10:25 PM, said:

Ruse, on Apr 28 2009, 06:48 AM, said:

Tellan, on Apr 27 2009, 07:36 PM, said:

Ruse, on Apr 27 2009, 09:44 PM, said:

Wow, Shadow I was considering making a point about you pointing a lot of fingers at different people today, but you went and reviewed everyone so I guess that's out.

I read over Barghast who is the lowest poster (by one or two) and noticed he made a couple comments about not looking at low posters early on and now he ends up one. Perhaps setting the stage in our minds so he can float without much contribution? He's also tried to make sure we take as long as possible on the hammer a couple different times now, which seems strange. I understand the premise it just seems like he could be stalling for someone to get on.

It seems like the biggest case is still on D'riss and I think it's still appropriate even if it's wrong. It is where the Mockra case started from and is a lesson in don't be overtly sympish even in jest because that person was scum and if that person wasn't scum you just got an inno lynched.

eh, there's a fine line between being sympish and RPing.
I don't blame D'riss for it too much, since my own behaviour when RI often seems to raise hackles of some players.

sorry for not contributin more today, I'm around, but have a killer headache.

This reads as a slip to me. You aren't RI this game?

Interesting slip, although bit of a tricky one - let's try not to out roled players if possible. Although little slips like that have been very telling in the past.

I thought about that but does a roled inno player go emo and offer to vote himself off day 2? I already pointed out it happened in Vamps when Malaese got all butthurt Day 2, so it could be a viable scum tactic this game to try and hide behind the same thing. So if you believe it's a slip and he's not roleless or roled inno it seems pretty scummy.

True, it's also a risky tactic for scum to try use (it put him at L-1 already) and you could say that asking to be killed raised the hackles of some players. It's very meta, but something similar happened in the Ambergris game and the innos let it slide, losing the game.

L-2. If he's a symp waiting on a kill it's not horribly risky,could draw a find and a pass for the rest of the game.

[Serc]

Ruse, on Apr 28 2009, 09:04 AM, said:

Serc, on Apr 27 2009, 11:30 PM, said:

Ruse, on Apr 28 2009, 08:10 AM, said:

Serc, on Apr 27 2009, 10:25 PM, said:

Ruse, on Apr 28 2009, 06:48 AM, said:

Tellan, on Apr 27 2009, 07:36 PM, said:

Ruse, on Apr 27 2009, 09:44 PM, said:

Wow, Shadow I was considering making a point about you pointing a lot of fingers at different people today, but you went and reviewed everyone so I guess that's out.

I read over Barghast who is the lowest poster (by one or two) and noticed he made a couple comments about not looking at low posters early on and now he ends up one. Perhaps setting the stage in our minds so he can float without much contribution? He's also tried to make sure we take as long as possible on the hammer a couple different times now, which seems strange. I understand the premise it just seems like he could be stalling for someone to get on.

It seems like the biggest case is still on D'riss and I think it's still appropriate even if it's wrong. It is where the Mockra case started from and is a lesson in don't be overtly sympish even in jest because that person was scum and if that person wasn't scum you just got an inno lynched.

eh, there's a fine line between being sympish and RPing.
I don't blame D'riss for it too much, since my own behaviour when RI often seems to raise hackles of some players.

sorry for not contributin more today, I'm around, but have a killer headache.

This reads as a slip to me. You aren't RI this game?

Interesting slip, although bit of a tricky one - let's try not to out roled players if possible. Although little slips like that have been very telling in the past.

I thought about that but does a roled inno player go emo and offer to vote himself off day 2? I already pointed out it happened in Vamps when Malaese got all butthurt Day 2, so it could be a viable scum tactic this game to try and hide behind the same thing. So if you believe it's a slip and he's not roleless or roled inno it seems pretty scummy.

True, it's also a risky tactic for scum to try use (it put him at L-1 already) and you could say that asking to be killed raised the hackles of some players. It's very meta, but something similar happened in the Ambergris game and the innos let it slide, losing the game.

L-2. If he's a symp waiting on a kill it's not horribly risky,could draw a find and a pass for the rest of the game.

Drawing a find doesnt really clear you for more than a couple of days though, so there's a lot less reward for that type of play in this particular game. Meh, I dont see someone playing like that if they were either roled or scum. Makes the comment interesting, but I dont know if it's worth a vote. Would like to hear Tellan's thoughts though.

[Ruse]

I'd like to hear something from Ampelas....hellloooo Day 5 pas ttime to start playing....

[Telas]

@barghast, here's the case on Emurlahn. It was a little strange to move to hammer when a good number of people were saying "lets wait until the bitter end for Liosan". A reveal could/would have been investigated, so his "(really? Any reveal made at L-1 like that is bullshit without backup)" doesn't hold any weight. If there was more, can someone add it? This is just the part I remember.


Edit: Case: 2 posts down. Edited because I screwed up the quote function and the post was a mess.

This post has been edited by Telas: 28 April 2009 - 07:35 AM

[Telas]

Sorry, I screwed up entering the quotes on that post. You can't tell who said what. I'm going to edit it now so it makes sense.

edited: clarity

This post has been edited by Telas: 28 April 2009 - 07:32 AM

[Telas]

Fener, on Apr 27 2009, 11:53 AM, said:

Emurlahn, on Apr 27 2009, 04:31 PM, said:

Fener, on Apr 27 2009, 11:22 AM, said:

Emurlahn, on Apr 27 2009, 04:14 PM, said:

Oh, and btw Fener:

Shadow, on Apr 25 2009, 11:31 AM, said:

D'riss, on Apr 25 2009, 03:35 PM, said:

@Shadow - I don't understand, unless I can't count, according to your figures there were 13 votes. What am I missing?

You're right......Fener's vote wasn't counted by Path-Shaper. Seems when Emurlahn voted Liosan was already technically lynched.

Shadow made this post, and Mockra apparently thought Shadow was saying that Fener was the hammer. Hell, the way it's worded, I thought the same thing until I rechecked the lynch train, but I'm fairly sure your vote was before D'riss's.

Also, P-S later confirmed Shadow's observation.

So Mockra thought it was ironic that you were attacking me for hammering when he thought that, in light of P-S's mistake, you were the hammer. (Who, in reality, is D'riss. What do you know?)

The main point is that my case against you was based on your behaviour when we all thought the vote count was right. That it subsequently turned out to be wrong is irrelevant. And Mockra missed that aspect of it, choosing to defend you with an irrelevancy.

Fener, the other half of your defense case revolved around two posts in which Mockra "reviewed" the active cases. You quoted both, with comments, in rapid succession despite the fact that they were on entirely different game days while implying that they were very close in proximity time-wise.

Mockra was doing nothing in the way of "defending" me, unless pointing out something you think is funny/ironic/hypocritical constitutes defenses. You've been bandying cases around like they're going out of style, and frankly, while you've been PI'ed if not CI'ed it still shouts SYMP! to me. But it's apparent that's not the case.

To recap:

I hammer Liosan, who as at L-1 with 1 hour or so left on the day timer
Fener votes me immediately after night resolves, claiming that I ruined Liosan's opportunity to reveal himself (really? Any reveal made at L-1 like that is bullshit without backup)
Shadow makes a post indicating that I was not the hammer, while implying (based on the wording, whether intentional or not I can't say) that Fener hammered
Mockra picks up on this, realizes that Fener had attacked him earlier, and thinks it's funny. He then makes a post about it with an amused "lol" appended at the end.
Fener decides that Mockra's "defense" right there and the fact that he didn't add me to his case review when I had 2-3 RP joke votes on me (when I said, "last call!") constitutes a scummy defense.

I mean, WTF? :Surprise:

It was a defence of you. Yes, he pointed out that my case was (in his view) hypocritical. Yes, he used an amused "lol". Those things defended you. It's not like he's going to come out and say "this post is a defence". I don't see how it can be interpreted in any way. Ridicule is a very powerful weapon for defence or attack.

And if you claim that Mockra was being honest in thinking my case was rubbish, people need to consider that Mockra was, in fact evil. And had an ulterior motive by definition.

The idea that any claim at L-1 is bullshit is ridiculous. Claimants should be given opportunity to prove their claims, and the finder can have a look at them too. If it's day 1 i'd rather not take out anyone who claims. If they're evil they'll be caught out eventually.

Here it is, in a form that's easy to read.

[Telas]

And Shadow adds this.

Shadow, on Apr 27 2009, 12:02 PM, said:

Emurlahn, on Apr 27 2009, 04:55 PM, said:

So, Fener, I voted off my own killer partner? Is that what you're telling me?

Killers have done that before - and Mockra was pretty much a goner whatever your did, not going on the lynch train may have seemed even more suspicious. Having said that, you're one of the lower suspects on my particular paranoid list.

[D'riss]

@Omtose ~ I never said I was actually any good at playing this game you know! I've certainly made some stupid mistakes. Mistakes that come from being careless because I am innocent! I haven't had chance to make much in the way of cases as I have been too busy (when I have had chance to be on line) defending myself - note I say myself and no-one else. My 'blow up' at Fener came at a time when plenty of others were finding him suspicious/aggressive. But I can't win because not making cases was wrong and then making a case was wrong.

@ Everyone else: It has been mentioned that I haven't been around at some crucial times. I said I would not be around much yesterday and I wasn't. I do not lie about RL. Similarly I won't be around this afternoon. I generally don't rush to vote, hence my not putting a vote in my 'blow up' post at Fener in the same way that I did not rush to vote Mockra. Night 1 I did vote him (Fener), because I genuinely felt he was being pushy. Tough luck for me that Meanas voted that way. And especially as it now seems to be accepted that Meanas was scum.

Ano said he guarded me and there was a kill. So unless there are two killers (which seems unlikely given we have only had one kill per night) then I am not a killer. If I am a symp I ask again - who am I symping now?

I'll be honest, if it the case were on anyone other than me I would probably vote it (but then I'm a bit of a sheep ) and if it weren't for the fact that we would be losing another inno I could almost argue for you to lynch me, because I feel I am becoming a distraction in a similar, but different way, that Fener almost did. I am drawing attention away, because of my poor play up to now, from the real scum and it is frustrating...and this isn't emo btw, just trying to think in the best interests of my team = the innocents.

If you do lynch me please at least look at Omtose. His case against me is taken from taking posts so out of context there has to be an ulterior motive.

[Anomandaris]

Shadow, on Apr 28 2009, 02:13 AM, said:

I really should be in bed but thought I'd just do a quick (and likely erroneous) analysis of the voters and non-voters on the Meanas train:

Tennes, Serc, Meanas, Tellan, Emurlahn, Shadow, Omtose, Anomandaris, Fener, Gamelon (not in that order, I don't think) voted for Meanas.

I'm willing to bet there's at least one scum (aside from Meanas) here. So, leaving out myself ( ), and Fener, who's dead, and Meanas, that leaves 7 suspects. Anomandaris is PI, leaving 6. Serc is also PI (I hope), leaving 5.

Tennes, Tellan, Emurlahn, Omtose, Gamelon:

- Tennes hasn't really come up on the radars, was missing with RL all weekend, got involved since but hasn't made a splash.

Thought he was modkilled he was so inactive over the weekend.

- Tellan caught some flack early on, people saying he posted in large quantity but with little content, then there was that whole 'lynch me, I care not' emo period - make of that what you will.

Emo moment, and also is very non confrontational. Was defending mockra and received the same treatment back.

- Emurlahn: Some people saying that he defended Mockra. Personally, I don't really see this. Or rather, the evidence is minimal.

Actually mockra only mentioned 5 players, he made cases on lio and omtose and he defended, driss, tellan and emur.

- Omtose: Played a good game so far, I'd say. Managed to squirm out of some difficult situations, usually by going off, doing research on other players, and giving lots of ehveedunce on them. Principally on suspect list due to supposed defense of Mockra. Again, not sure, could have just been an inno in the wrong place at the wrong time with his strong suspicions of Fener, and then on the other hand.....

Was more aggressive of fener than defending mockra, and mockra made a case against them.

Gamelon: Stayed under the radar. I can't really think of anything to say on Gamelon. Pops in and out, contributes a little, goes again. Could just be play style/RL, could be consciously continuing to stay under the radar.

Fener said gamelon came up inno


And let's not totally cut Serc out of the picture - it could still have been a very risky play by Meanas, but yes, it's WIFOM.

I wouldnt put it past gem to explode to clear serc with wifom, there doesnt seem to be any other reason for the insanity.

Oh, and me

hmmmm


Those who didn't vote:

Ampelas, Barghast, D'riss, Galain, Korlat, Rashan, Ruse, Telas.

- Well, Rashan and Galain are gone, boo hoo.

- Ampelas: Pops in and out, but I can't remember them saying anything worthy of note.

Will be hard to make a case on as they havent made an impact.

- Barghast: Another popper, interestingly was here during the Meanas train, but said they wouldn't vote until much later, as they wanted to give others more time. Could be genuine, could be....something else.

No spam, interesting in the way they appear every so often with insight. Of the low posters this behaviour is most supicious as they clearly are well aware of the game, but are not making cases. My bet for a low posting killer.

- D'riss: Interesting there was no vote from D'riss, seeing as he's basically next on many people's list of suspects. Not here during the Meanas meltdown, or felt it would be better to stay out of all that? We really need to outlaw anonymous viewing, I think Suspicion of him mostly stems from my link with Mockra, which I'm actually no longer that big a believer in. More recently, however, Omtose has tried to produce more ehveedunce against him.

I blocked driss, but as a killing pair the kill would still go through. If inno has been sadly associated quite strongly with mockra. If you do a search through mockras posts, driss and mockra have the most interaction on day 1, and driss is one of the few players mockra speaks to and defends.

Korlat: I think Korlat might be the lowest remaining poster. Not sure what to think about Korlat, as there's so little to go on. I guess, unless we're really stuck, there's no point in trying to start a lynch here, as it wouldn't be based on anything right now. I would really like a bit more participation from Korlat.

They seem to only vote.

Ruse: A couple of people now have pointed out his non-confrontational, sitting on the fence style. I can't say I've got any vibe off Ruse, but perhaps that's the point. A bit too slick and unnoticed so far, perhaps. I might take a closer look at Ruse's posts after I get some sleep.

Again, an anonymous player.

Telas: Another mid-level poster who's strolled through the game so far. Same comments as for Ruse really.

Again, an anonymous player.

The problem is that there's so many people still left who haven't established themselves in any way, given nothing to read off of. To an extent, this is good play by them. But if you're unrolled innocent, get in there dammit!

To summarise, after I grab some kip, I'll take a look at Ruse and Telas' posts. They're not my biggest suspects, but I'm trying to investigate outside the box here.

[Path-Shaper]

It is Day 5. 8 hours and 57 minutes remaining

14 Players still alive: Ampelas, Anomandaris, Barghast, D'riss, Emurlahn, Gamelon, Korlat, Omtose, Ruse, Serc, Shadow, Telas, Tellan, Tennes

8 votes to lynch, 7 votes to go to night

2 votes for D'riss: ( Telas, Anomandaris)

Players not voted: Ampelas, Barghast, D'riss, Emurlahn, Gamelon, Korlat, Omtose, Ruse, Serc, Shadow, Tellan, Tennes

[Path-Shaper]

off to work back on in a few

[Shadow]

Ah yes, you're quite right, Ano, Gamelon was pronounced innocent - still could be a symp, of course...and in fact, after Mockra's death, could even be a killer now, we just can't be sure.

Well, Omtose has posted an extensive case on D'riss thus far, and he says that's still not all of it. It's not altogether the most convincing case, in my opinion, but it's certainly more of an effort at putting together one than we've seen up to this point.

I'm going to have a look at some other posts now, but if I don't find anything, I'm really tempted to just go for one of the lower posters - Anomandaris mentioned Barghast is looking iffy to him - to be honest, Barghast, Ampelas, and Korlat all feel slightly shady.

But doing that would almost certainly be quite hit and miss. I guess the 'safe' option would be to lynch D'riss at this point.

I'm not sure what to make of Ruse's suggestion that Tellan slipped with how he worded a particular phrase...there could be something there, but I think that's the sort of thing we keep on the backburner for now.

[Telas]

That slip could mean something, or it might not. I think it's interesting but not much to go on. I still don't like his fatalism attitude from earlier.
Omtose, come back and finish up your case! I've already got my vote down, but it's not set in stone so I'd like to hear whatever else you've got.

edited to add : "like"

This post has been edited by Telas: 28 April 2009 - 11:35 AM

[Korlat]

Arggg, really sorry for inactivity... my internet is really pissing me off
Only been able to get on now though im going to bed soon
Chances are ill ask for a modkill soon as I really am dead weight
Catching up on whatever I can now

[Gamelon]

Catching up, but have only 30 minutes to read in lunchbreak. Some comments have been made about my involvement in the game, I'm currently doing a week's worth of work in two days. Good news: tomorrow up until friday I'm at home, so you might see more than you can stomach of me then.

[Shadow]

Ok, I've been looking through Ruse's posts, and I can't say I've found anything out of the ordinary. In fact, if anything, Ruse looks better to me than he did before, there were some posts in there which attempted insight, swung one way or another...though his high-minded putdowns of Fener's finder playing were somewhat grating. Also noticed that Ruse and Tellan have been toing and froing for almost the entire game, albeit much more discreetly than some of the other tiffs we've had.

But, while I was looking through Ruse's posts, I did find this. It's probably nothing, and was in fact said as a joke by Ampelas, but hey, if we've been looking seriously at the Mockra-D'riss 'I love yous', then why not this? The only thing is, it's Serc.

Ampelas, on Apr 24 2009, 11:57 PM, said:

Impressions on what I missed. Aka, Impressions, pt 1.

Mockra, on Apr 24 2009, 04:03 PM, said:

I'll admit I role-play badly. But, who in their right mind actually talks like this: "For serious, bar still open?"

Secondly, why would I vote when all we had were "drunken posts" with people attempting to be funny?

My brother for one, but that doesn't disprove your point.

Serc, on Apr 24 2009, 04:14 PM, said:

Mockra, on Apr 24 2009, 10:11 PM, said:

Because no decent case has been made?

Edit: Cross post.

Since when is a day one case 'decent' lol. Also, I spy an Apt undertaking his secret mafia training routine for Dresden Mafia

A scum reveal on day 1? AWESOME!

*snip*

So, glad we finally decided to get serious, I don't want to vote for Lio just yet, cuz I think when he sobers up he'll stop posting like a drunk. Of course, if he continues throughout the game, I'll have no choice but to throw a vote that way. Neither do I want to vote Fener as he stuck his neck out to get the serious game rolling, which was really something I've been waiting for. I appreciate what he's done, but Fener be warned, if you continue to be quite so pushy and aggressive on very small grounds, you too will earn my vote. And I think D'riss is the other currently talked aobut lynch candidate. Iirc, its for having the highest post count. Ridiculous. And so, I'll simply go with the scum reveal I caught, clearly a spy symp trying to signal his masters with a cleverly disguised children's travel game, and

vote Serc

I also hate that alt but anyways...

This post has been edited by Shadow: 28 April 2009 - 11:51 AM