[Wampyry]

Traveller is diverted from his trip to Quon Tali by Shadowthrone. Traveller and Shadowthrone reach an agreement, Traveller will perform 'a small service' under two conditions. Then, Osserc emerges from Kyle's sword and the storyline goes elsewhere. What service and what conditions are not mentioned again. Later, Traveller shows up on Quon Tali from nowhere to aide Temper and Ferrule who are fighting Skinner. How did Traveller know that? Traveller fights and beats Skinner then disappers into nowhere.
Unless Shadowthrone assisted Traveller in his to and from travels, Traveller used a Warren. Far as I know he can't invoke Warrens. Is the use of Warrens to help those who Traveller likes and respect one of the two conditions he made with Shadowthrone? Or is it a stroyline-ism? Or is there some other explanation?

This post has been edited by Wampyry: 18 April 2009 - 02:35 AM

[Aptorian]

First, the author Esslemont hasn't exactly shown the most talent in tying together his scenes, so I wouldn't worry my brain too much on this subject.

I don't remember if there actually is some written explanation for it, but I think it's safest to assume that ST got Dassem to the field of battle. Afterwards Dassem probably just hiked/skipped/hitched a shadow mule down to the local harbor and took a ship to Genebackis.

Dassem probably has some kind of personal warren. It's what makes him able to withstand being hit with sorcery, burried under ground, etc. but it doesn't exactly sound like something he controls. That whole "Dessembrae" business he did on behalf of that dead general doesn't really fit with anything else we've seen or heard through out the series.

Dassem certainly doesn't have an entire realm of his own he can take warren short cuts through, and he hasn't shown any talent of knowledge as a mage so it's unlikely that is able to use other warrens to take shortcuts.

[Wampyry]

Aptorian, on Apr 18 2009, 01:27 AM, said:

First, the author Esslemont hasn't exactly shown the most talent in tying together his scenes, so I wouldn't worry my brain too much on this subject.

I don't remember if there actually is some written explanation for it, but I think it's safest to assume that ST got Dassem to the field of battle. Afterwards Dassem probably just hiked/skipped/hitched a shadow mule down to the local harbor and took a ship to Genebackis.

Dassem probably has some kind of personal warren. It's what makes him able to withstand being hit with sorcery, burried under ground, etc. but it doesn't exactly sound like something he controls. That whole "Dessembrae" business he did on behalf of that dead general doesn't really fit with anything else we've seen or heard through out the series.

Dassem certainly doesn't have an entire realm of his own he can take warren short cuts through, and he hasn't shown any talent of knowledge as a mage so it's unlikely that is able to use other warrens to take shortcuts.

Thanks, Apt. I am a firm beliver in letting the author tell his story in his own way. If there are inconsistencies so be it! However, both Erikson and Esslemont deliberately leave clues for the reader
to deduce their connection to the overall storyline. Hard to distinguish between what's a clue vs. what's an error.
Bottom line, I enjoyed the book. That works.

This post has been edited by Wampyry: 18 April 2009 - 03:15 PM

[Excellence]

Traveller did something -- did you notice? When Cotillion swung his rope around Kyle, Traveller broke a bit of it with a mere gesture!

[Aptorian]

Excellence, on 06 September 2009 - 01:27 PM, said:

Traveller did something -- did you notice? When Cotillion swung his rope around Kyle, Traveller broke a bit of it with a mere gesture!

I think that gesture was made with a sword in his hand.

Swords are sharp.

[Excellence]

I noticed something else too -- he seemed to appear offpage on the Edur ship and back again with his companions "just like that." Unless I misread the scene, he teleportaled offpage?

[Aptorian]

When you say Edur ships do you mean the encounter where he was building a boat with Ereko?

Because that was more a case of Dassem killing a hundred Edur and setting the ships on fire in a matter of minutes.

Dude is efficient.

[Excellence]

That was the one. He seemed to just go from shore to the ships "offpage" in a "moment."

I've noty finished the book so don't have the full picture yet.

[Slaav]

That sequence was a bit unclear, I thought he just finished killing the Edur/setting the ship on fire then jumped off and swam back to the beach where he killed the rest of the Edur from the other ship.

Hes described as appearing out of the ocean and walking onto the strand but that doesn't mean he used a warren

[Urizen]

Slaav, on 27 September 2009 - 01:20 AM, said:

That sequence was a bit unclear, I thought he just finished killing the Edur/setting the ship on fire then jumped off and swam back to the beach where he killed the rest of the Edur from the other ship.

Hes described as appearing out of the ocean and walking onto the strand but that doesn't mean he used a warren

Of course Traveller will appear as out of nowhere since everything happens behind Ereko's back. Never do we see Ereko (who is the PoV character)turn around and actually look at what's Traveller is doing.

[Silencer]

In addition, the ships are drawn up close to shore. He heads off to one ship, Ereko just leaves him to it, basically. No magic involved.


And he's using Vengeance when he cuts Cotillion's rope, so that is how he did it with a flick of his wrist. Not a magical gesture. XD

[Excellence]

No. I've finished the book now and reread that scene. He turned and gestured. That was clear. He nipped the Rope's rope.

[war_m0nger]

Excellence, on 28 September 2009 - 12:30 PM, said:

No. I've finished the book now and reread that scene. He turned and gestured. That was clear. He nipped the Rope's rope.

But immediately after he "gestured". he sheathed his word. ICE always references Traveler's movements as too fast to be seen. I took that sequence as him drawing his sword and chopping very fast. I was curious about his movement though... he has a tendency to just "appear" in places and I had the definite impression that he teleported from the first Edur ship after he slaughtered its crew.

[ShadowRaven]

I've somehow felt like Traveller does possess a warren of sorts, but not in the usual way they work. When he is heading somewhere for his own goals, he travels like any mortal would.

However, near the end of the book he clearly mentions that he is present on the scene in his role as Dessembrae, which seems odd considering he hasn't done it any other time. In addition to this we find out in TtH

Spoiler

That Dessembrae actually has quite a lot of followers, which would also mean their worship could give him power

Relating to the spoiler above, it makes me feel like

Spoiler

Traveller is halfway ascended or something similar. When he decides to act as Dessembrae, he could probably use warrens, etc. to travel, but he sometimes refuses this position in order to pursue his personal goals as Dassem. In other words, it all depends on how he views himself at the moment. Maybe that's what inhibits him from always travelling via Warrens.

[Abyss]

Back in TB, Dassem is referred to as a living man who has ascended most of the way to godhood.

I think it comes down to aspect - when Dassem is acting in his 'Traveller' identity, he is essentially Dassem Ultor, an extremely powerful swordsman (sufficiently powerful to fight full blown ascendents like the Avowed) - keeping in mind that before he became Dessembrae, Dassem was the Knight of Death and was worshipped by Malazan soldiers in some fashion, so he was already way ahead of the baseline power for a 'mere' human and we saw in NoK that even after his falling out with Hood, Das' retained most if not all of that power. Wehn Dassem is acting in his Dessembrae aspect he can do many other things like warren-walk and even call on significantly more power. There is some overlap in the two identities ...

SPOILERS
SPOILERS TOLL THE HANDS SPOILERS MAJOR ULTRA DOUBLE PLUS EXTRA
SPOILERS FOR TOLL THE HOUNDS DO NOT DO NOT DNOT NOT READ THIS SPOILER
IF YOU DO NOT WANT A MAJOR TOLL THE HOUNDS SPOILER BURNED INTO YOUR SPOILERS
EYEBALLS
SPOILERS

Spoiler

at the finale of Toll when Dassem arrives in Darujhistan. he's practically blind with the impetus of his mission to kill Hood. Baruk's demon spots him and is stunned at the power level. As he approaches Hood, we see the Dessembrae cultists are in the city and praying hard. Now this is significant because in this moment, Dassem's two aspects are essentially united - his 'human' mission for venegance on Hood springs from the death of his daughter, and his god-aspect of Tragedy was triggered by the death of his daughter, which brought him to this point. So unlike the various conflicts we've seen Dassem in prior to the finish of Toll (vs the Edur in HoC, vs the Edur and the mages' golem's on Jacuruku in RCG, and vs Skinner in RCG), at the finish of Toll this is Dessembrae the God and Dassem the ascendent former Knight in full power and practically blinded by BOTH his aspects (Vengeance and Tragedy) with the added bonus of Rake's old sword with all that it brings to the table which is saying a lot.

All of which is to say that Dassem is particularly complicated example of a single individual with multiple aspects. We've seen others tho pre-RCG - Rake is both Darkness and Starvald Demelain/draconic, Karsa is both Toblakai and Chains, Paran is both Shadow and the Deck...


- Abyss, aspected to both beer AND scotch...

[thebarstoolscholar]

Abyss, on 30 August 2010 - 03:02 PM, said:

All of which is to say that Dassem is particularly complicated example of a single individual with multiple aspects. We've seen others tho pre-RCG - Rake is both Darkness and Starvald Demelain/draconic, Karsa is both Toblakai and Chains, Paran is both Shadow and the Deck...

New guy here, and I thought I'd chime in on this.
You all make very good points, but I particularly like Abyss mention of Karsa. If I remember correctly, Karsa has created a personal warren around himself, this is how he is able to resist magic. It seems to me that Dassem has done something similar in his Traveler persona. His rejection of Hood and the world at large, can be seen to be similar to Karsa's rejection of the civilized. In fact you can draw multiple similarities between the two in the whole noble/barbarian warrior thing as well as in their methods, if not their ends. Karsa after all wants to end civilization, whilst Dassem just wants to be left alone.
To me this can explain some of the incredible acts that Dassem does while not in his Dessembrae aspect.

[Marcule]

The next paragraph comments on Karsa and HoC, which shouldn't be a spoiler as HoC should have been read prior to RotCG - just letting you know...

Karsa's position is certainly unique; the most interesting point is he drags the souls of all he has killed behind him in chains, but I'm unsure as I'd call it his own personal warren - seems more of a link between him and the Crippled God. A link that implies he is being used by, or that he belongs to, the Crippled God. Its obvious this kinda pisses him off thoroughly, as he views this as being a slave, but that's a different discussion. As to his ability to resist magic, I thought that was explained rather straight forward in HoC that its the use of the 'blood oil?' (Can't remember the exact term as its been over a year since I read DoD and longer since all the books before, and just now am halfway through my first re-read of GotM with the intention of reading them all again before book 10) Anyway - the oil that the Teblor put on their wooden swords which gives them strength, the same oil that when imbibed turns them into super violent murderous raping super thugs, the same oil that is made from a form of otataral dust/ore that they find in the hills. So his magical resistances have nothing to do with the other oddities about Karsa, and everything to do with his life-long contact with otataral.

While that has nothing to do with the original thread theme, just thought I'd point that out.

This thread was very interesting. While I pride myself in picking up and understanding a lot of what the underlying themes are, I always thought Dassem to one of the most confusing lines to grasp in its entirety. After reading RotCG and TtH, I always thought I should know more about him then I did. After reading this thread its obvious I missed a lot somewhere, and I'm sure it's just a few offhand comments buried in these books. Just makes me more excited for the re-read.

As for Dassem's ability to just appear in places and the instance of him gesturing and snipping the rope, I always viewed that as, well, comedy. Aside from instances of ST booting him out of a warren to beat down Skinner, its meant to just just how much of a badass Dassem really is. Choke my friend? I don't think so - he cut the rope with his sword with the same ease as you would wave your hand. Get the boat ready, I'll just be a moment while I educate these fools attacking us - he just physically went and killed all the Edur and got back on the boat that fast. It was effortless. Dassem is a badass, just like Karsa is a badass, only Dassem is a much bigger badass than Karsa. Its like Chuck Norris jokes - Chuck Norris doesn't where a watch, he DECIDES what time it is. He can do that because he's that much of a badass. While Dassem may be 'magically enhanced' in terms of being an ascendant and Hood's Knight or whatever, he doesn't 'use' magic, he doesn't teleport (unless teleported by someone else like ST), he is just a badass. Comedy, its that simple.

This post has been edited by Marcule: 09 February 2011 - 06:34 PM

[Hetan]

Abyss, on 30 August 2010 - 03:02 PM, said:

All of which is to say that Dassem is particularly complicated example of a single individual with multiple aspects. We've seen others tho pre-RCG - Rake is both Darkness and Starvald Demelain/draconic, Karsa is both Toblakai and Chains, Paran is both Shadow and the Deck...

- Abyss, aspected to both beer AND scotch...

Paran is Shadow? er... where did that come from? He's Master of the Deck so he can go where he chooses, including into Shadow, but that doesn't necessarily make him of Shadow or did I read that wrong and that's what you meant?

[Aptorian]

I'm assuming Abyss means the shadow hound blood in his veins.

[Hetan]

Yes I know about the blood - but I don't necessarily see that as Shadow - forgive me for being obtuse on this, I always thought of that aspect as being something more primal.