[Silanah]

Fener, on Apr 17 2009, 01:40 PM, said:

Ampelas, on Apr 17 2009, 12:38 PM, said:

Silanah, on Apr 17 2009, 01:33 PM, said:

Ampelas, on Apr 17 2009, 01:30 PM, said:

Interesting, I think I understand where FM is coming from, so who do we need to hunt the most? I'd say the Carmillai? Then the Baali and Sabbat? Or does the recruiting take precedence over the shifting forms of the Baali.

I disagree. I think the Baali and Sabbat are the more dangerous because the scene very heavily indicates that people will be getting recruited over (the Sabbat) and the recent discussion leads me to believe that the Baali can possess.

If anything I'd say
Sabbat Leader AND Baali > Camarilla > Sabbat rank-and-file

Note: I will not lose any sleep if we kill Camarilla early. Let's face it, there's very little to help us determine who belongs to which faction.

I see. I guess I don't quite understand the likely threat level of the Carmilla? You listed them as tough mofos, whaddya think we're looking at power wise?

...?

I would think they have a vig or vigs since they are the 'best' agents around.

I'm not sure if its a good idea to discuss this kind of stuff ever, much less during day (night)

Hadn't considered the day-vig aspect... if they do have it, I'd have a hard time imagining them using it too early.

[Fener]

Silanah, on Apr 17 2009, 12:43 PM, said:

Fener, on Apr 17 2009, 01:40 PM, said:

Ampelas, on Apr 17 2009, 12:38 PM, said:

Silanah, on Apr 17 2009, 01:33 PM, said:

Ampelas, on Apr 17 2009, 01:30 PM, said:

Interesting, I think I understand where FM is coming from, so who do we need to hunt the most? I'd say the Carmillai? Then the Baali and Sabbat? Or does the recruiting take precedence over the shifting forms of the Baali.

I disagree. I think the Baali and Sabbat are the more dangerous because the scene very heavily indicates that people will be getting recruited over (the Sabbat) and the recent discussion leads me to believe that the Baali can possess.

If anything I'd say
Sabbat Leader AND Baali > Camarilla > Sabbat rank-and-file

Note: I will not lose any sleep if we kill Camarilla early. Let's face it, there's very little to help us determine who belongs to which faction.

I see. I guess I don't quite understand the likely threat level of the Carmilla? You listed them as tough mofos, whaddya think we're looking at power wise?

...?

I would think they have a vig or vigs since they are the 'best' agents around.

I'm not sure if its a good idea to discuss this kind of stuff ever, much less during day (night)

Hadn't considered the day-vig aspect... if they do have it, I'd have a hard time imagining them using it too early.

Day is night, remember... but I have no clue what they have or what it does, but since they seem to me to be 'elite vampire ninjas' - I would imagine they have a vig or two, day or night, or night or day, depending...

As I said, I don't mind discussing things like trying to get clan names straight, but I'm not sure how deep we should get into role/power speculation.

[Silanah]

This is my current thought-of the breakdown...

14/15 Anarchs (one dead) (lots of passive abilities, maybe 2 finders)
2 Baali (one Leader can Possess, one Symp cannot, they know each other and can probably speak off-thread)
3 Sabbat (one Cult Leader, two flunkies who probably know the leader but not each other and must speak on-thread)
3 Camarilla (probably 1 with NK every night, probably 1 with 1-2 Vig, probably 1 with Heal/BP/Guard, probably all know each other but must speak on-thread)

That's 23 people and I think it fits very heavily into the scene. I have no basis for this guess other than the discussion thus far.

Do you think a 6-8 game would have some kind of 'unknown' 5th faction, maybe a lone Lycan has somehow infiltrated the keep and has a victory condition of just surviving until someone else wins or something like that? That thought has been in my head for a while now.

EDIT: While I am sure speculation is in the end going to have a lot of wrong answers, I do think it's a good idea that we speculate simply to see how people respond to the idea of the various role powers. What if someone gets extremely squeamish when talking about possession or cult or something?

This post has been edited by Silanah: 17 April 2009 - 05:51 PM

[Ampelas]

I think I kinda agree with Fener, lets leave the power speculation out for now. How about numbers. According to Meanas' links, there are nine core clans of Camarilla. It doesn't go into specifics about clan numbers for the other types, but there can't be 9 Camarilla. We don't have the numbers. So how many do you guys think there are? I might speculate 4 as a maximum, with 2 most likely. After all, according to the intor scene we're dealing with an infiltration, not an all out invasion.

hmph, cross with Sil.

This post has been edited by Ampelas: 17 April 2009 - 05:52 PM

[Fener]

Silanah, on Apr 17 2009, 12:50 PM, said:

This is my current thought-of the breakdown...

14/15 Anarchs (one dead) (lots of passive abilities, maybe 2 finders)
2 Baali (one Leader can Possess, one Symp cannot, they know each other and can probably speak off-thread)
3 Sabbat (one Cult Leader, two flunkies who probably know the leader but not each other and must speak on-thread)
3 Camarilla (probably 1 with NK every night, probably 1 with 1-2 Vig, probably 1 with Heal/BP/Guard, probably all know each other but must speak on-thread)

That's 23 people and I think it fits very heavily into the scene. I have no basis for this guess other than the discussion thus far.

Do you think a 6-8 game would have some kind of 'unknown' 5th faction, maybe a lone Lycan has somehow infiltrated the keep and has a victory condition of just surviving until someone else wins or something like that? That thought has been in my head for a while now.

EDIT: While I am sure speculation is in the end going to have a lot of wrong answers, I do think it's a good idea that we speculate simply to see how people respond to the idea of the various role powers. What if someone gets extremely squeamish when talking about possession or cult or something?

And what if someone enjoys the speculation, has a 'power-role', and will put up unfactual information in an attempt to screw the town?

[Silanah]

Fener, on Apr 17 2009, 01:55 PM, said:

Silanah, on Apr 17 2009, 12:50 PM, said:

This is my current thought-of the breakdown...

14/15 Anarchs (one dead) (lots of passive abilities, maybe 2 finders)
2 Baali (one Leader can Possess, one Symp cannot, they know each other and can probably speak off-thread)
3 Sabbat (one Cult Leader, two flunkies who probably know the leader but not each other and must speak on-thread)
3 Camarilla (probably 1 with NK every night, probably 1 with 1-2 Vig, probably 1 with Heal/BP/Guard, probably all know each other but must speak on-thread)

That's 23 people and I think it fits very heavily into the scene. I have no basis for this guess other than the discussion thus far.

Do you think a 6-8 game would have some kind of 'unknown' 5th faction, maybe a lone Lycan has somehow infiltrated the keep and has a victory condition of just surviving until someone else wins or something like that? That thought has been in my head for a while now.

EDIT: While I am sure speculation is in the end going to have a lot of wrong answers, I do think it's a good idea that we speculate simply to see how people respond to the idea of the various role powers. What if someone gets extremely squeamish when talking about possession or cult or something?

And what if someone enjoys the speculation, has a 'power-role', and will put up unfactual information in an attempt to screw the town?

That's a fair point, but I already posted the information in my obsession to analyze the data we have.

[Korvalain]

Fener, on Apr 17 2009, 06:55 PM, said:

Silanah, on Apr 17 2009, 12:50 PM, said:

This is my current thought-of the breakdown...

14/15 Anarchs (one dead) (lots of passive abilities, maybe 2 finders)
2 Baali (one Leader can Possess, one Symp cannot, they know each other and can probably speak off-thread)
3 Sabbat (one Cult Leader, two flunkies who probably know the leader but not each other and must speak on-thread)
3 Camarilla (probably 1 with NK every night, probably 1 with 1-2 Vig, probably 1 with Heal/BP/Guard, probably all know each other but must speak on-thread)

That's 23 people and I think it fits very heavily into the scene. I have no basis for this guess other than the discussion thus far.

Do you think a 6-8 game would have some kind of 'unknown' 5th faction, maybe a lone Lycan has somehow infiltrated the keep and has a victory condition of just surviving until someone else wins or something like that? That thought has been in my head for a while now.

EDIT: While I am sure speculation is in the end going to have a lot of wrong answers, I do think it's a good idea that we speculate simply to see how people respond to the idea of the various role powers. What if someone gets extremely squeamish when talking about possession or cult or something?

And what if someone enjoys the speculation, has a 'power-role', and will put up unfactual information in an attempt to screw the town?

Then if they screw up and don't posit it as speculation, we'll have found a scum!

[Silanah]

Basically posting and not posting speculation is entirely WIFOM.

[Silanah]

Also, the 'day scene' should be up in like 5-7 minutes if the timer started with the hammer vote (longer if it started with P-S posting the lynch scene).

[Korvalain]

Not really what I meant. Fener was saying what if someone puts up false information, well either they'll put it up as speculation and we won't be taking it as fact anyway, or else they will put it as non-speculation (accidentally or not) which would show them as a power-role (and scum presuming that we can tell the difference between scum power roles and any potential inno-role, which I would think we can). Thus I can't see the harm...

[Meanas]

The stuff I read makes a big deal about how close Sabbat packs are. I would think if any faction knows all it's memebers and can comm off thread it would be them. Granted thatreally doesnt fit with a cult model. I would hazard a guess there are slightly more Camarilla than Sabbat, ith slightly less powerful roles, or only being aware of their leader. I would hazard 2 Baali, 2/3/4 Sabbat (depending on the roles they have) and 4-5 Camarilla; which gives us about 10 or 11 scum players. Slightly more than would be in a standard inno-town game, but multiple factions would balance it out.

@amp, yeah I dont think there would be 9 camarilla either. The bloodlines/clans thing seems to have way more to do with a vampires type of power than their political alignment. Makes me wonder why we are allowed to reveal roles but not clan names...

[Fener]

So I admit to being a Masquerade noob.

I thought Anarchs, Carmilla, and Baali were clan names. Am I mistaken?

[Korvalain]

Meanas, on Apr 17 2009, 07:07 PM, said:

The stuff I read makes a big deal about how close Sabbat packs are. I would think if any faction knows all it's memebers and can comm off thread it would be them. Granted thatreally doesnt fit with a cult model. I would hazard a guess there are slightly more Camarilla than Sabbat, ith slightly less powerful roles, or only being aware of their leader. I would hazard 2 Baali, 2/3/4 Sabbat (depending on the roles they have) and 4-5 Camarilla; which gives us about 10 or 11 scum players. Slightly more than would be in a standard inno-town game, but multiple factions would balance it out.

@amp, yeah I dont think there would be 9 camarilla either. The bloodlines/clans thing seems to have way more to do with a vampires type of power than their political alignment. Makes me wonder why we are allowed to reveal roles but not clan names...

Ment said in the sign-up thread that he wanted 20 or 24 players to keep the town:scum ratio constant. A math guru could probably make better guesses than this, but I think the two feasible cases here are [8:20 or 9:24] or [10:20 or 12:24]. With the former option an extra person would be added to either Sabbat or Cam if the numbers grew from 20 to 24, I don't think the Baali are likely to get more people since it so clearly says there are 2 of them. The second case would probably mean that Cam and Sab would each get 1 added.

Of course, we started at 21 and grew to 23. So when in the growth from 20 to 24 a scum gets added could be pretty important...

[Silanah]

Meanas, on Apr 17 2009, 02:07 PM, said:

The stuff I read makes a big deal about how close Sabbat packs are. I would think if any faction knows all it's memebers and can comm off thread it would be them. Granted thatreally doesnt fit with a cult model. I would hazard a guess there are slightly more Camarilla than Sabbat, ith slightly less powerful roles, or only being aware of their leader. I would hazard 2 Baali, 2/3/4 Sabbat (depending on the roles they have) and 4-5 Camarilla; which gives us about 10 or 11 scum players. Slightly more than would be in a standard inno-town game, but multiple factions would balance it out.

@amp, yeah I dont think there would be 9 camarilla either. The bloodlines/clans thing seems to have way more to do with a vampires type of power than their political alignment. Makes me wonder why we are allowed to reveal roles but not clan names...

It's a good question... from your linked articles

Anarchs can come from anywhere:

Membership of the Anarchs is wide and varied, but the majority of its members are drawn from the clans of the Camarilla and the Sabbat. Whilst it is possible for members of independent Clans or Bloodlines to join, they are less frequently counted amongst the Anarchs numbers.

Camarilla and Sabbat are more restricted.
If you look, the Factions are divided by Clan (mostly) so Brujan, Malkavian, Nosferatu, etc are all Camarilla clans. If you said one of those clans, you'd be Camarilla or Anarch. If you said Lasombra or Tzimisce or Antitribu (whatever the hell that is) you'd be Sabbat or Anarch.

Now since we can reveal our faction AND our role it doesn't really make sense to not reveal our Clan simply because I would think that the Clan is basically a guideline for the role and potential faction.

[Ampelas]

Fener, on Apr 17 2009, 02:13 PM, said:

So I admit to being a Masquerade noob.

I thought Anarchs, Carmilla, and Baali were clan names. Am I mistaken?

Read Meanas links. It seems they are all different sects of vampires, but within the Camarilla at least, there are 9 different clans.

[Ampelas]

Argh, I have to leave soon and day ends so soon. I hope I get to see it...

[Silanah]

Fener, on Apr 17 2009, 02:13 PM, said:

So I admit to being a Masquerade noob.

I thought Anarchs, Carmilla, and Baali were clan names. Am I mistaken?

Yes. Anarch, Camarilla, and Sabbat are sects, which are conglomerates of vampire clans.

The clans are listed here.

I'm actually kind of puzzled you would ask this because you were given an assignment in your role PM, which would say your sect AND your clan... unless of course, you were Baali, which is neither, it's a 'bloodline or extinct clan' as the article describes.

[Korvalain]

Fener, on Apr 17 2009, 07:13 PM, said:

So I admit to being a Masquerade noob.

I thought Anarchs, Carmilla, and Baali were clan names. Am I mistaken?

Yeah, I think you are mistaken. Sab and Carm seem like vampire "nations", with Anarch a little monastary in the empty land in between (so like a mini-nation), while Baali are some sort of underground black magic cult (not in the mafia sense!) that nobody likes and operate underground either in the nations or outside of 'em

Clan is like bloodlines or something. The ones in the OP were Giovani, Tremere and Tzimizce - apparently mages. Maybe meanas can tell us if clans are exlusive to a certain nation or if they cross borders. The clans have specialties and of course pertain to certain abilities, so if someone had a "Fireball" day ability they'd be one of those 3 mage clans, etc etc


edit: X-post and I'm totally wrong. Haven't gotten that far in Meanas' assigned readings yet!

This post has been edited by Korvalain: 17 April 2009 - 06:22 PM

[Fener]

Silanah, on Apr 17 2009, 01:19 PM, said:

Fener, on Apr 17 2009, 02:13 PM, said:

So I admit to being a Masquerade noob.

I thought Anarchs, Carmilla, and Baali were clan names. Am I mistaken?

Yes. Anarch, Camarilla, and Sabbat are sects, which are conglomerates of vampire clans.

The clans are listed here.

I'm actually kind of puzzled you would ask this because you were given an assignment in your role PM, which would say your sect AND your clan... unless of course, you were Baali, which is neither, it's a 'bloodline or extinct clan' as the article describes.

I have a

(Clan) (Sect)

I thought the Clan name was my name and the Sect name was my clan name.

[Meanas]

Fener, on Apr 17 2009, 08:13 PM, said:

So I admit to being a Masquerade noob.

I thought Anarchs, Carmilla, and Baali were clan names. Am I mistaken?

No, they're faction names. Clans are sortof what vampire 'race' you come from, whereas faction describes your political allegiance and view on how vampires should act. So like the gangrel are beast-affinitied vampires (clan) but could belong to the camarilla or anarchs type of thing.