[Jumpy]

So, we all know Grub becomes First Sword of the Empire, and his exploits are depicted in a book known as "The Lives of the Three."

Perusing the forums I've seen some speculation in various threads about who else the book might be about. But, as of now, I've yet to see a thread devoted to it.

Here are my thoughts on the book:

It is not about Dassem/Korbolo Dom/Grub. In fact, I doubt it would have anything to do with Dom, considering how much of a douche bag he is. I mean, he can't even earn the loyalty and respect of soldier's serving under him -- fear, yes, we know they fear him, and from fear stems a certain type of respect, but not the kind we're looking for. And Dassem probably has 19857438957 books dedicated to him.

"Lives of the Three," and I saw this during my re-read of HoC, deals with Grub, Nil and Nether, and their exploits in the Malazan Empire -- from the Chain of Dogs and then onward. After the Wickan pogrom, and throughout the campaigns they face after the events of RotCG. Basically their life and death as Malazans. I'll look through all the chapters again, because the excerpt from Lot3 was at the beginning of a chapter. And it for a fact talks about Grub, Nil and Nether.

I'd like to see more from Lot3. Most of the time those excerpts are very interesting. Some of them, where SE tries to make up a "cool" origin song for certain characters.. Meh. They're not always my favorite. Duiker's are good most of the time. Most of Fisher's stuff rocks. ISKAR JARAK has one in BH. Usually good stuff, and a lot of info can be found in them. Then, sometimes, they're just a waste.

Anyway, that was my two cents on Lot3. Hopefully some of you agree with me, but I'd like to hear what others think that book is about!

Cheers.

[Sindriss]

As I recall, he has 2 discuised companions in BH and I always assumed they were the other two. Cannot find a quote as my brother got the book.

[Tarr]

Do the other members of the three have to nescacairly be around at the same time as grub, could this quote not simply be refering to the three greatest generals of the empire as a whole or could the two others be in other field's (e.g. a general, an emperor, a claw commander) or even just three people who guide the empire through a difficult state of termoil?

[Theotendo]

Grub was identified as the First Sword "of the Late Empire period", so I'm guessing the others would be the Imperial High Mage and the Emperor or Empress of that same period. Yes? No?

[Sinisdar Toste]

Theotendo, on Apr 2 2009, 03:28 PM, said:

Grub was identified as the First Sword "of the Late Empire period", so I'm guessing the others would be the Imperial High Mage and the Emperor or Empress of that same period. Yes? No?

I agree, and i bet Nil and Nether have it in em to be Emperor/Empress or Imperial High mage one day

[Jumpy]

Tarr, on Apr 2 2009, 04:19 PM, said:

Do the other members of the three have to nescacairly be around at the same time as grub, could this quote not simply be refering to the three greatest generals of the empire as a whole or could the two others be in other field's (e.g. a general, an emperor, a claw commander) or even just three people who guide the empire through a difficult state of termoil?

Good point, here. Yet I shall bring Nil and Nether up once more. As of RotCG, we know that they're in command of at least a few blood thirsty Wickans. So they could, possibly, be returned to the Malazan fold, and end up as great heroes. Then again, we don't even know if the Lot3 has to be, necessarily, about Malazans at all. We'll have to see who the author was, and any other detail in the quote. From HoC. I'll look tomorrow.

Theotendo, on Apr 2 2009, 04:28 PM, said:

Grub was identified as the First Sword "of the Late Empire period", so I'm guessing the others would be the Imperial High Mage and the Emperor or Empress of that same period. Yes? No?

Maybe, but again not necessarily. Who knows? I just know that, for a fact, Nil and Nether are in Lot3. And they're mentioned in the same sentence with Grub, although the excerpt is about the time during 7Cities. Still, it was about all three of them, equally. They weren't mentioned just in passing.

[D'rek]

Theotendo, on Apr 2 2009, 03:28 PM, said:

Grub was identified as the First Sword "of the Late Empire period", so I'm guessing the others would be the Imperial High Mage and the Emperor or Empress of that same period. Yes? No?

More likely Emperor/Empress, Adjunct and First Sword -> thus the head honcho, the military leader and the logistical leader of the empire.


In response to the OP, however, just because Korbolo Dom is a bit of an ass does not mean he could not have a book about him and Grub and Dassem Ultor. If there were 3 First Swords in the entire history of the Malazan Empire, than a scholar wishing to write about the military leadership of the Malazan Empire would not simply omit Korbolo and call it Lives of the Two. He would include a section of Korbolo (no matter how small compared to DU and Grub), if only to elaborate whatever failings Dom had and how he caused the beginning of the downfall of the Empire, or some such. Plus, Korbolo is an expert at spinning history (example: The Chain of Dogs!!!!!). Who's to say that by the time Lives of the Three is written, he hasn't completely subverted his role in events and is now seen as more heroic than DU?? Anything is possible...

[Fox]

slightly off topic, but is Grub a Wickan? I can't remember, and I only have RotCG with me at school.

[Aptorian]

I must admit my memory is fuzze but I don't think Grubs descent is actually mentioned. He is adopted by Captain Keneb whom I guess is From Quon or Malaz Island. But Grub himself is probably from 7 Cities.

[Optimus Prime]

I don't remember either but pretty sure he isn't wickan. He's a 7 Cities orphan from all the chaos I think.......

The other two of "The Three" is intriguing....ahh...all the possible spin-offs for this series make me drool.....

[T'renn]

Lives of the three (in my oppinion)

Possible emperor/empress: Tavore/ Ganoes
Possible Imperial Highmage: Sinn/ Quick Ben Delat/ Bottle/ Tays (returned from chaos, bound to happen)
First Sword: Grubb (will be named differently)

[Jumpy]

Apparently I hallucinated seeing Lot3 with Grub, Nil and Nether all mentioned together. I just looked at all the chapters in DG, HoC, and BH. BUT I KNOW I SAW IT! Anyway, here is the one from HoC, though it is only about young Grub,
pg 484 U.S TPB

"It was said the captain's adopted child--who at that time was known by the unfortunate name of Grub--refused the wagon on the march. That he walked the entire way, even as, in the first week beneath the year's hottest sun, fit and hale soldiers stumbled and fell.

This is perhaps invention, for by all accounts he was at that time no more than five years of age. And the captain himself, from whose journals much of that journey and the clash in which it culminated is related in detail, writes very little of Grub, more concerned as he was with the rigours of command. As a result, of the future First Sword of the ate Empire period, scant detals, beyond the legendary and probably fictitious, are known.

Lives of the Three
Moragalle"

But, it looks like we're back to square one.
A. We don't know who Moragalle is
B. We don't really know who else the 2 could be
C. I still think Nil and Nether, and will find the reason why

Dassem already has a book though, by Duiker. Why right another book about him?

D'rek, I realize this. About Korbolo Dom. But I imagine the books written about that traitor are far from celebrating that half Napan's life. And I'm pretty sure his time as First Sword of the Empire is very limited. EVERYONE knows he isn't a true First Sword. No outstanding skill with the blade. Not one to, as mentioned earlier, earn loyalty among his soldiers. Not a very good General, as he has been outsmarted by everyone he has gone up against, starting with Coltaine. Why waste the ink writing about that prick in the same book as Dassem Ultor and (cause he is gonna be badass) our little Grubling?

That being said, I'm starting to learn a little toward First Sword / Highmage(or Adjunct) / Emperor scenario, for the Late Empire period.

[Imperial Historian]

The theory for the lives of the three being grub, nil and nether comes from this quote I believe:

"He saw three figures ahead, standing at the ridge, and thought nothing strange as to their presence. They are what will come. These three.
Nil. Nether. The lad, Grub."

From when gamet rode out with teh ghosts in chapter 25 of HoC.

Personally I think it's a valid theory, though there isn't much besides that quote to back it up. I definitely prefer it to the idea of the book being about the first swords, the lives of the three would suggest that the three are intimately related with each other, which I doubt can be said of the three first swords.

[Abyss]

Jumpy and IH nail the main points that lead to the conclusion it's Nil, Nether and Grub.

of course, it could be a whole OTHER three, and the book just happens to mention Grub, and Gamet's vision is just a coincidence, SE has played us this way before...

- Abyss, trusts in SE, SE is good, SE is great...

[Jumpy]

Imperial Historian, on Apr 3 2009, 12:55 PM, said:

The theory for the lives of the three being grub, nil and nether comes from this quote I believe:

"He saw three figures ahead, standing at the ridge, and thought nothing strange as to their presence. They are what will come. These three.
Nil. Nether. The lad, Grub."

From when gamet rode out with teh ghosts in chapter 25 of HoC.

Personally I think it's a valid theory, though there isn't much besides that quote to back it up. I definitely prefer it to the idea of the book being about the first swords, the lives of the three would suggest that the three are intimately related with each other, which I doubt can be said of the three first swords.

Thank you. I'm glad you agree with me. I really want this to be correct. It just seems to fit, for some reason or another.

Abyss, on Apr 3 2009, 03:43 PM, said:

Jumpy and IH nail the main points that lead to the conclusion it's Nil, Nether and Grub.

of course, it could be a whole OTHER three, and the book just happens to mention Grub, and Gamet's vision is just a coincidence, SE has played us this way before...

- Abyss, trusts in SE, SE is good, SE is great...

He is a sneaky bastard, SE is.

[D'rek]

Jumpy, on Apr 3 2009, 11:46 AM, said:

D'rek, I realize this. About Korbolo Dom. But I imagine the books written about that traitor are far from celebrating that half Napan's life. And I'm pretty sure his time as First Sword of the Empire is very limited. EVERYONE knows he isn't a true First Sword. No outstanding skill with the blade. Not one to, as mentioned earlier, earn loyalty among his soldiers. Not a very good General, as he has been outsmarted by everyone he has gone up against, starting with Coltaine. Why waste the ink writing about that prick in the same book as Dassem Ultor and (cause he is gonna be badass) our little Grubling?

Enitrely valid, but I think you're giving Morgalle too muc credit. He could just be some hack scholar obsessed with being a 'completionist', even though he (and everyone, apparently) knows Dom had little significance compared to DU and Grub, Moragalle still feels the need to include him for scholarly reasons of including every last detail.

Or, Moragalle is an excellent novelist and includes Dom's story for the contrast it offers between DU and Grub. Much like Erikson has passages about the Patriotists, despite them being vile, or about Karsa Orlong, despite him not being a proper House Champion. Just because someone doesn't match the mold of nicety and properness to their title doesn't mean they aren't worth writing about.

And finally, I think you're wrong to say that 'EVERYONE knows he isn't a true First Sword'. The peasant army assaulting the Wickan plains clearly believe his story and probably think he is a great hero. The Armies of the Apocalypse followed him throughout the Chain of Dogs and the Dogslayers were his to the end. He may not always achieve his goals the same way as someone like Leoman, Itkovian or Barack would, but he still has enough talent and efficiency to keep the army in favour of him. He did command the Bridgburners after all...

For these reasons and more, I believe that Korbolo Dom as the First Sword *is* worth writing about, especially to a presumed scholar from the future like Moragalle. It reminds me of the Sanguozhe, written in the 3rd century about the military officers involved in the Three Kingdoms era. Chen Shou, the author, wrote biographies about officers from all sides of the struggle, not just the winners or his own favoured Shu nation, nor did he favour writing about the most capable officers over the more incompetent ones...

[Ain't_It_Just_]

I always assumed that the other two were Roach and Bent. I mean, it seems a bit silly but even so.

[Jumpy]

D'rek, on Apr 3 2009, 10:47 PM, said:

Jumpy, on Apr 3 2009, 11:46 AM, said:

D'rek, I realize this. About Korbolo Dom. But I imagine the books written about that traitor are far from celebrating that half Napan's life. And I'm pretty sure his time as First Sword of the Empire is very limited. EVERYONE knows he isn't a true First Sword. No outstanding skill with the blade. Not one to, as mentioned earlier, earn loyalty among his soldiers. Not a very good General, as he has been outsmarted by everyone he has gone up against, starting with Coltaine. Why waste the ink writing about that prick in the same book as Dassem Ultor and (cause he is gonna be badass) our little Grubling?

Enitrely valid, but I think you're giving Morgalle too muc credit. He could just be some hack scholar obsessed with being a 'completionist', even though he (and everyone, apparently) knows Dom had little significance compared to DU and Grub, Moragalle still feels the need to include him for scholarly reasons of including every last detail.

Or, Moragalle is an excellent novelist and includes Dom's story for the contrast it offers between DU and Grub. Much like Erikson has passages about the Patriotists, despite them being vile, or about Karsa Orlong, despite him not being a proper House Champion. Just because someone doesn't match the mold of nicety and properness to their title doesn't mean they aren't worth writing about.

And finally, I think you're wrong to say that 'EVERYONE knows he isn't a true First Sword'. The peasant army assaulting the Wickan plains clearly believe his story and probably think he is a great hero. The Armies of the Apocalypse followed him throughout the Chain of Dogs and the Dogslayers were his to the end. He may not always achieve his goals the same way as someone like Leoman, Itkovian or Barack would, but he still has enough talent and efficiency to keep the army in favour of him. He did command the Bridgburners after all...

For these reasons and more, I believe that Korbolo Dom as the First Sword *is* worth writing about, especially to a presumed scholar from the future like Moragalle. It reminds me of the Sanguozhe, written in the 3rd century about the military officers involved in the Three Kingdoms era. Chen Shou, the author, wrote biographies about officers from all sides of the struggle, not just the winners or his own favoured Shu nation, nor did he favour writing about the most capable officers over the more incompetent ones...

Well, it is possible. I see where you're coming from, but I don't want to start any crazy theories on a character we've never met.

But, well, it is called The Lives of the Three. the Three. To me, the title alone signifies that these three people are very, very important to the Late Empire period. The reason I'm thinking it deals with only the Late Empire period (and the three's lives up to the point of their deaths or where ever the story ends) is because, well, from the except it is all we have. If at least one part is about Grubber and his exploits as the First Sword of the Empire, then it stands to reason (to me) that the book would be about significant players in the game during that time.

By "everyone," I meant all the integral players to the MBotF that we know. Obviously the masses of the Empire aren't savvy to the knowledge we have, but it stands to reason that with Duiker's re-telling of the CoDs (see: Duiker of Darujhistan) that the truth is known about Korbolo Dom. So, while you have a valid point in Moragalle writing about him to contrast with Dassem and Grubby, it does not seem plausible to me.

And, uh, I must've missed it, but when did Korbolo Dom ever command the Bridgeburners? Seems like a dagger would've found its way to his back rather soon. Unless it was a temporary command after Whiskeyjack was busted down? The Bridgeburners we know WOULD have killed Korbolo Dom. Fact.

The Dogslayers were loyal to Dom out of fear. They knew he played by his own rules, would allow the unmitigated slaughter, etc. Again, he doesn't command loyalty like Dassem did(does) and how Grub probably would(but this we do not know, though I feel he lives up to Dassem's name).

So, from just going on what I have actually seen in the books, the except and Gamet's epiphany, I'm going to say that Lot3 deals with Grub, Nil and Nether, and their exploits in the Late Empire Period (probably after the death of Mallick Rel--if that happens, which it had better or I'll boycott MBotF).

[D'rek]

Korbolo commanded the BBs after WJ was moved somewhere else, so pretty early on in their history. This from Kalam talking to Keneb in DG. Kalam says Korbolo was a bit more bloodthirsty than he would've liked, but doesn't infer that there was any attempts to assassinate him or anything like that. Eventually Dujek was promoted and replaced Korbolo, who was reassigned to another unit.

I think your reasoning is pretty good on most points. The only other thing I'd really like to stress is that just because Grub is important to the Late Empire period, doesn't mean the other two of the Three are important to, or even from, that same period, especially if Lot3 is an historical scholarly work...

[Binder of Demons]

That quote from IH does seem to nail the identities of "the Three". The only other name that really jumped to my mind was possibly Coltaine reborn as one of the three? Since he would also be only a few years younger than Grub.