[Aptorian]

Couple of things.

Where does it say that the first empires Ritual of the Beast created Ottataral Island? I think this just wrong. The Ottataral Island is a construct specifically made to handle the Jadestatues or alternatively made by the impacts of the Jadestatues.

I remember Treach thinking of tearing apart a continent, destroying a shadow fragment and I believe he was involved in the battle with Ryl that caused a mountain of Ottatataral but I remember no mention of a connection to the O-island.

The trohlbaral was made by one of the First Empires rulers, can't rememeber is its dessimbelakis specifically, but it wasn't a part of the Ritual of the Beast. The Trohlbaral was some kind of mix between beasts and demons (remember it is a demon d'ivers), I also think I remember Dejim being a reverse D'ivers, not one becomming many but many becomming one, or many becomming many, how ever you want to formulate that.

The Jadestatues are either summoned by, or sent to, Burn from the CG world. But it sounds unlikely that they're just drawn by a random encounter as a beacon. They are gigantic magical constructs filled with millions of souls. I think their passage and purpose have a very specific intent. They weren't sent for Burns moon, it just got in the way.

[beru]

maybe the beast ritual was on genebaciks? on the teblor place.... (i seem to remember tht he said far away continet... but he/me can be wrong)

[Aptorian]

The Ritual took place in the First Empire. Wrong continent.

[beru]

thoght so...

[Lister of Smeg]

I think the Beast Ritual happened at the same time as the Jade Giants crashed into the Otataral Island. Treach and others thought it was their ritual that created the Otataral, but it was in fact the arrival of the JG.

[Sindriss]

Sinisdar Toste, on Mar 29 2009, 07:31 AM, said:

Sindriss, on Mar 28 2009, 10:51 PM, said:

Is it just me or this getting a bit offtopic?

i think its just you.

what does charmander have to do with jade giants?

EVERYTHING????

He clearly gave them a boost firewise so that they could reach the malazan world in time.

And I don't think there is any connection between the beast ritual and the arriwal of the Jade Giants

[D'rek]

HoosierDaddy, on Mar 28 2009, 04:43 AM, said:

The Jade Statues have a link to the Crippled God. We know this.

Bullshit. This is thought once by an emotional distraught character completely out of his depth who is also high and hallucinating at the time. That's not near enough prove to say "we know this".

Mentalist, on Mar 28 2009, 10:27 PM, said:

what would attract tehir fall and in that particular location, too?
in thecase of tBH, I can buy the explanation about CG drawing them to Wu, because he ws flexing his muscles already, what with having a House and all.
but the first batch on Otataral? I struggle to find anothr major conflagation in what we were given of Wu's history.

A mage battle between the priests of Kartool and Olar Ethil, I believe, supposedly created a mountain of Otataral, or so believes Cartheron Crust...

Mentalist, on Mar 29 2009, 12:59 AM, said:

no, we are speculating about Heboric, and the Jade giants, still

I'm actually looking for more connections, going back to the weirdness of Heboric's hands in DG.Back when he had 3 separate powers in them, before the Jade took over.

There's not much. One hand was sticking into Fener's warren (left I think), the other one was full of Otataral (and thus no longer connected to Fener) and then infected by the Jade which slowly defeated the Otataral in that hand. They're dying in the desert, Baudin presses Heboric's hand to his most sacred tatoo to try and get Fener's help, but uses the wrong hand. Jade touches Fener, Fener gets pulled into the world. As Fener's warren dissipates or whatever, Heboric's Fener-hand becomes mundance and eventually the Jade takes over both hands and remains even after Treach adopts him (though his ghostly hands do become barbed with tiger stripes)...

[Salt-Man Z]

D'rek, on Mar 30 2009, 05:30 PM, said:

HoosierDaddy, on Mar 28 2009, 04:43 AM, said:

The Jade Statues have a link to the Crippled God. We know this.

Bullshit. This is thought once by an emotional distraught character completely out of his depth who is also high and hallucinating at the time. That's not near enough prove to say "we know this".

Whatever. The link can be made. Other parts of Heboric's "hallucinations" have essentially been corroborated in BH.

[Aptorian]

D'rek, on Mar 31 2009, 12:30 AM, said:

HoosierDaddy, on Mar 28 2009, 04:43 AM, said:

The Jade Statues have a link to the Crippled God. We know this.

Bullshit. This is thought once by an emotional distraught character completely out of his depth who is also high and hallucinating at the time. That's not near enough prove to say "we know this".

Uhm. Jade, it seems to be the major substance of the CGs universe.

In TTH Baruk has caught a worshipper from the CG world whose soul has strayed to far from his plane of existance. His eyes are glowing jade.

The Jade statues are falling through a gigantic tear between the world of Burn and a different world.

The souls inside the Jadestatue are looking for someone. Who do YOU think it is? The Elder God of Toast?

[beru]

apt is on to somthing
they are looking for bob... the holy toastmaker (if you dont get this read hichhikes guide to the universe(SP))

[HoosierDaddy]

Any post that endears "BULLSHIT!" is a good post!

Otataral is created around a Jade Giant. Besides the Teblor Plateau, the only known existence of otataral is around a Jade Giant.

Other massive uses of magic simply deaden the land (Bath Fulmar, Beak's resting place....) so we know it isn't simply a massive over usage of magic that "creates" otataral, otherwise those places would be flowing in it.

Heboric, toucher of the Jade Statue, was able to PULL A GOD into RL. Not any regular stuff right there... seems fairly anti-magical (if you consider God's the embodiment of magic, which isn't an overly ridiculous statement).

How about: This is highly likely! Does that make you feel better, Drek? "Knowing" is half the battle, I agree. But, I think it is far more likely than a simple "Bullshit!" answers.

"Bullshit. This is thought once by an emotional distraught character completely out of his depth who is also high and hallucinating at the time. That's not near enough prove to say "we know this."

What point is there in having the one character, in your own series, who was connected to magic have touching a Jade Statue, go through all this weird stuff if it DID NOT have to do with the overall arc of the story. Seriously, from a story-telling point, why have this last over 7 books if it had NOTHING to do with the overall plot of the Crippled God when so many other connections are viable?

[Aptorian]

The assumption that there only exists ottataral in the Laederon Plateau and on the O-island is wrong. We know that chaotic releases of magic can create ottataral, as witnessed by Nok when Kelanved fought Treach... or was that Ryl? anyway it created a mountain of ottataral (not to be taken litterally).

Likewise I'm sure I remember a mention of ottataral being mined somewhere else than on the O-island.

The places where the ritual of Telland was invoked are dead instead of heaped in ottataral because the ritual soaked up all the energy, magic, life there was and used it to fashion the ritual. That the land is now dead makes sense, because all magical warrens flow through Burn.

[HoosierDaddy]

Well, I haven't finished NoK yet, so I guess I wouldn't know that part.

So what is the difference between what Beak did and and the Ritual, magical mechanically wise?

This post has been edited by HoosierDaddy: 31 March 2009 - 07:34 AM

[beru]

the only two places with o-dust (i remember) is teblor area and o-island

[Aptorian]

HoosierDaddy, on Mar 31 2009, 09:25 AM, said:

Well, I haven't finished NoK yet, so I guess I wouldn't know that part.

So what is the difference between what Beak did and and the Ritual, magical mechanically wise?

Beak used his own lifeforce, while the T'lan used the earths lifeforce...

[HoosierDaddy]

Yes. Okay, solid point, I agree. That is the difference.

Yet, didn't they say the "magic" was gone from that area? (Deadsmell, I think...)

[beru]

yes but he dident kill the land only the magic...

[D'rek]

Known Otataral sources:
1. O-island
2. Laederon (assuming bloodoil is some sort of liquidy otataral)
3. Ryl and Treach's battle thingamajig
4. The mage battle of Kartool, as remembered by Cartheron Crust
5. The Beast Ritual, if this was different from O-island

Other magic-deadening:
1. Ritual of Tellann areas (Bast Fulmar, etc.)
2. Site of Beak's shielding

But this is vastly off-topic from what I am debating. My point is that we have no proof that the Jade Statues are of the same world as the CG. Yes, they are almost certainly from some *other* world, but if there are two worlds, there can be a million and the only reason we have for believing they come from the same world as the CG is that the two are both not of this world. This may lead characters in the books to incorrectly decide some things. For example, Fiddler thought the Jade Statues were another falling god, but clearly he was wrong. Likewise, Heboric may see a big rupture in some ephemereal, metaphorical space and belive that this is proof the Jade Statues are a pursuing army from the CG's world, but he is wrong in automatically making such a conclusion and has no good reason to be sure of such a thing with any conviction.

I'm not saying that the CG and the Jade are not somewhat related. Anything is possible. And the truth may well be a combination of both worlds. For example, the space-rupture may have been caused by the CG's descent, and hence is now still open and pulling more things like the Jade Statues into the world. But again, there's no way we should be conclusively deciding that without a doubt "the Jade Statues are from the CG's world". That's just such an exact declaration for which we have almost nothing supporting it with. Ludicrous.

Aptorian, on Mar 31 2009, 01:28 AM, said:

The souls inside the Jadestatue are looking for someone. Who do YOU think it is? The Elder God of Toast?

Quote please? Last I recall, the souls in the jadestatue wished they could get the hell out of there...

This post has been edited by D'rek: 31 March 2009 - 08:51 PM

[Tiger_sword]

pg 589 HoC:

"Thus, the Crippled God was brought down to our world. Through this... this terrible puncture. And these giants... follow. Like an army behind its commander.
Or an army in pursuit"

They were Heboric's thoughts when he saw the "red-limned wound" in space that the giants were moving towards. Also many of them were shattered so it seams plausable that they may have hit the moon on their way to the ground, I guess the other side of the wound is somwhere near the malazan planet but beyond the moon.

This post has been edited by Tiger_sword: 02 April 2009 - 08:31 PM