[Daemon_Monkey]

Is it just me feeling incredibly frustrated with Heboric coming back?
Not just the fact that I despise the guy but at SE bringing someone back from the dead.... again. The guys died twice already, just let him be!

This post has been edited by Daemon_Monkey: 27 March 2009 - 10:39 PM

[Lister of Smeg]

I don't mind Heboric's return as much as I did Brys Beddict's, for example. While I felt Brys's story was done and his death was perfect, Heboric's story just felt like it left a lot of loose ends dangling. We need him to explain the entire jade giant storyline, and apparently he has a big role to play with the gods of war too.

Plus Mebra seemed to think he had the power to destroy the entire world in his hands, so I'd always hoped he would come back.

[Sindriss]

I like heboric, he sees things the way they are and is certainly not naive.

[HoosierDaddy]

Daemon_Monkey, on Mar 27 2009, 05:25 PM, said:

Is it just me feeling incredibly frustrated with Heboric coming back?
Not just the fact that I despise the guy but at SE bringing someone back from the dead.... again. The guys died twice already, just let him be!

Lister of Smeg, on Mar 27 2009, 05:30 PM, said:

I don't mind Heboric's return as much as I did Brys Beddict's, for example. While I felt Brys's story was done and his death was perfect, Heboric's story just felt like it left a lot of loose ends dangling. We need him to explain the entire jade giant storyline, and apparently he has a big role to play with the gods of war too.

Plus Mebra seemed to think he had the power to destroy the entire world in his hands, so I'd always hoped he would come back.

Heboric is a fairly unique character in the Malazan Universe. It is understandable why he has not been laid to rest:

1. He has been a servant of TWO gods of war: Fener & Treach. (The old and the new: which is a theme in the pantheon of this series) (DG & HoC, TBH)
2. He is the ONLY character (in SE's Universe) that has had direct contact with a Jade Giant. (DG)
3. The Jade Giant has obviously not affected, but INfected him in some sense (DG, HoC, TBH, DoD)
4. He saved the Burn World from annihilation by "adsorbing", like a shield anvil, the shock of Jade Giants that missed the Moon and were heading towards Otataral Island.
5. He is the only character in ANY Malazan novel that has been able to communicate with the souls inside the Jade Giants (likely a gift/curse from the first touch).
6. We have been given Extra-terrestrial viewpoints about Wu/Burn from solely Heb's perspective. He is the one that sees the Giants, he is the one that Communicates with them, He is the one that has "Saved" both Wu and their souls...

The Jade Statues have a link to the Crippled God. We know this. Heboric IS the character that brings the JG into some form of identifiable concept.

If I had to take a guess as to why this is relevant... this is my theory:

We know Jade Giant's have fallen in the past and been subsumed by Otataral (Otataral Island...). However, we have no idea why there isn't a massive amount of otataral available on Wu/Burn.

Burn is allergic to the affects of TCG to the point that it creates otataral. TCG creates anti-magical substances. I think Heboric and his condition/Jadism is what will ultimately deal with TCG. Otherwise... SE has wasted a lot of words.

[Ain't_It_Just_]

Yes...Heboric has the most intimate knowledge of the Jade Giants, who are (or will be) major players. Personally, I'm thrilled to have him back. And in a book partially set on Lether.

[Mentalist]

hmm

I'm thinking back to that passage in MoI when Treach is dying and he thinks back to the Ritual of the Beast.... can't help but think that (with SE's love of convergences) that was when the Jade Giants first fell onto the Otataral island.

[beru]

what if it was the beast ritual that made the JS crash on Wu/burn? maybe...

[Mentalist]

lol, I just said that, no?
but i'm not sure how that would work--iirc, Dissembilackis and co. were using a chunk of Shadow warren for that, and it exploded, summoning the T'lan Imass.
now, the explosion of a Warren is certainly a major enough even to cause the fall, but then there's a question of why this chunk? why not when KE was torn apart originally?

there's undoubtedly a reason for the convergence, but I can't figure out wht would it be that linked them together.

[beru]

you said that it happed at the same time i said that one was cause and the other effect...

[Mentalist]

lol, well that what happens in convergences--"power draws power" and all that jazz, but'm trying to think of a more concrete reason then that.

[HoosierDaddy]

beru, on Mar 28 2009, 10:58 PM, said:

what if it was the beast ritual that made the JS crash on Wu/burn? maybe...

beru, on Mar 28 2009, 11:04 PM, said:

you said that it happed at the same time i said that one was cause and the other effect...

No, it was the summoning of the Crippled God and the rent that caused as well as either the CG's followers or enemies sending them that caused them to appear, nothing at all to do with the Soletaken Ritual.

[Mentalist]

umm.. and you prove that how?

i'm looking at the location--otataral island.
it's the same place that Treach happent to mention as the location of the Ritual of the Beast.

the events may not be temporarily linked, but they are certainly spatially linked.
if, as you suggest otataral was formed during the Fall, then the Ritual couldn't happen there, as Treach implies, because otataral messes up magic in a major way.

[HoosierDaddy]

As to whether the Jade Giant's fall had something to do with the beast ritual GOING AWRY, well that's possible. But Beru is trying to say that the Ritual CAUSED the Jade Giants to fall, and that is just wrong.

[Mentalist]

obviously, the fact that the awry part caused their fall is implied.

the Ritual was what gave birth to the thorl'bara, right?
aside from the massive veeraga of all those present.

I mean, it's unquestionable that something major went wrong. I'm just trying to see what it could've have been to serve as a "beacon" of sorts for the jade chunks.
I mean, i think it's too much to assume that they were already falling on Wu--iirc from DG, heboric describes them as forever flying through empty space, not necessarily having a target.

what would attract tehir fall and in that particular location, too?
in thecase of tBH, I can buy the explanation about CG drawing them to Wu, because he ws flexing his muscles already, what with having a House and all.
but the first batch on Otataral? I struggle to find anothr major conflagation in what we were given of Wu's history.

[HoosierDaddy]

With that kind of theory, why would they target the Moon? Why does there need to be a beacon?

As to the Crippled God "drawing" them there: No, the theories are that they are either supporters attempting to follow him, or his enemies getting rid of his supporters.

[Mentalist]

I have no clue.
the moon thing really, really throws me off on just about everything.
I can theorize about a bunch of things and be coherent, and then the various shenanigans with the moon come up and they don't fit anywhere,

[Mentalist]

another thing about Heboric:

in MoI, when Itkovian catches the Masked priest of Fener, he cuts off his arms, and his soul is claimed by the "alien being" that took over Fener's warren. now, people have said that this was the CG before, but i never agreed with that, since CG revels in human pain, and he knows of it, whereas that particular being was completely ignorant of humans.
it was also said in DG, I believe, that Fener's warren bordered on the warren of Chaos or somesuch.
I'm wondering if the Jade Giants be related to this strange new god?

and no, that doesn't explain why they targetted the moon,

[Sindriss]

Is it just me or this getting a bit offtopic?

[Sinisdar Toste]

Sindriss, on Mar 28 2009, 10:51 PM, said:

Is it just me or this getting a bit offtopic?

i think its just you.

what does charmander have to do with jade giants?

[Mentalist]

no, we are speculating about Heboric, and the Jade giants, still

I'm actually looking for more connections, going back to the weirdness of Heboric's hands in DG.Back when he had 3 separate powers in them, before the Jade took over.