[Cold Iron]

amphibian, on Mar 9 2009, 05:44 PM, said:

Having dealt with alcoholics and heroin addicts before, I am hesitant to classify anyone who smoked pot regularly for a while as a cannabis addict. To be addicted is on a very different mental and physiological plane than to want to smoke every day to have fun. The substance being abused really becomes a coping strategy, an end in itself. There might be some people out there who genuinely are addicted to pot, but I've not run across any out of a few hundred people.

Have I given you some sort of indication that my general lexical capacity was somewhat lacking or do you believe you possess a more intimate familiarity with the word addiction than most? Obviously I've shown that I'm aware of the fact that my personal experiences and emotional attachment do harm to my argument, so I have no reason to trump up my story here, I'm certainly not looking for your sympathy.

amphibian, on Mar 9 2009, 05:44 PM, said:

You seem to associate pot smoking with kids. I can tell you from experience that older people toke up a lot more than you think. I think that's the entire premise of the show Weeds.

You watch HBO? Well in that case you must know what I think. I've known 14 people who I would classify as being addicted to marijuana right now or at some point in their life, myself would be number 15, by addicted I mean more than just daily use, I mean various levels of being unable to eat, socialise, work or otherwise function without it (or even with it), lying, stealing, dealing, breaking and entering in order to get it and being near incapable of saving it or otherwise apportion it for the future. I'm talking about complete mental delusion about it's effects and control, delusion about society, personal appearance, relationships, personal capacity. And in one case I'm talking about the complete withdrawal from society for over a decade. Each one of these people was addicted by their early 20s, some by their mid teens.

amphibian, on Mar 9 2009, 05:44 PM, said:

You're the one that said that as long as any form of black market trade is "illegal" (I took this as a typo meaning "exists"), it will be impossible to get rid of street gang violence. You've tried to turn this into a "all or none" proposition two or three times now.

Because without all you are just taking one on a long list away, the effects to violent crime will be zero.

This post has been edited by Cold Iron: 09 March 2009 - 10:35 PM

[Slum]

I haven't read all of this thread nor am I interested in debating the intricacies of instituting such a policy at the state level....

I just wonder if Cali has considered the mass influx of new residents such a law would induce -- imagine the nationwide stoner/counterculture exodus that would ensue....

Oh, and alcohol is a far more dangerous drug than pot, imo. Just coming from my own actions exhibited while under the influence of alcohol compared to MJ.

After smoking too much weed, you'd be hard pressed to get me out of the house, let alone behind the wheel of a car or involved in a fight....

Too much alcohol....well, all bets are off.

[amphibian]

Cold Iron, on Mar 9 2009, 06:29 PM, said:

You watch HBO?

Weeds is on SHO.

Quote

Because without all you are just taking one on a long list away, the effects to violent crime will be zero.

You just went from "crime" to "violent crime". "Zero" is not the effect I believe legalization would have on violent crime either. Some violent crime does occur because of pot. I believe legalizing it will lower both non-violent and violent crime, as well as reduce jail and prison crowding and ease the considerable burden on the judiciary system.

[Cold Iron]

Cold Iron, on Mar 9 2009, 08:57 AM, said:

On a rational level however, it's clear with alcohol and cigarettes that legalisation does not mean effective management and as long as any form of black market trade is illegal, you will never rid the streets of violent gangs.

amphibian, on Mar 9 2009, 10:30 AM, said:

Stephenson aside, it's hard to get violent street gangs to traffick in Freon. The ease with which drugs can be produced, distributed and sold is what fuels a great majority of street gang violence. If that source was removed from their control, I would bet a considerable amount of my money that the violence would drop markedly and stay down indefinitely.

Cold Iron, on Mar 9 2009, 11:00 AM, said:

Unless you're talking about legalising all drugs you're not gunna acheive anything. And even then there will be violent crimes associated with black market prostitution, gambling, counterfeit designer products, stolen goods, illegal immigrant smuggling etc. etc.

amphibian, on Mar 9 2009, 12:21 PM, said:

Yes, people are shanking each other over fake Coach bags (I'm being sarcastic here). Stolen goods and smuggling I can see being associated with violence, but gambling is not usually related to violence these days. None of the problems you've mentioned are as widespread or lucrative as that of drug usage and addiction to such drugs.

We were talking about violent crimes. Violent crimes that occur because of pot will be replaced by ones that occur because of whatever new drug that particular dealer starts dealing. Net effect zero. In fact any increase in violent crimes due to increased instances of relationship breakdown would result in a net increase. Any prison crowding and administrative cost reduction would be dependant on the same idiots not being arrested for possessing a different, illegal drug or item, which is not unlikely. Cops will rarely even know about the occasional user, much less arrest and charge them. Most cannabis possession charges go along with narcotic possession, unregistered firearms, stolen goods etc.

[Sinisdar Toste]

first off, http://blip.tv/file/1356143 anyone with an opinion about marijuana should watch this.

now, the only violent crimes associated with pot are those perpetrated by dealers. but the dealers that hurt people are usually slinging harder stuff, with pot on the side, in any case. i for one would much rather pay the government for my pot than some guy that i can't even get a hold of half the time and i have no idea where the stuff comes from or whats in it.

health wise, marijuana smoke is no more harmful to people than smoking, like, oregano, its actually more healthy to smoke pot that oregano. studies have shown that THC, the active ingredient in pot, kills cancerous cells in the lungs. and these days we have vaporizers, so the only thing you inhale is THC, no plant matter, no tar. i just smoked one of those things for the first time and i can tell you, it was smooth, like fresh air. i've read a lot of studies about the effects of marijuana smoking on health and the only one that i've seen thats turned up negative evidence for its health effects involved rats, metal implants, and the speed with which their body healed around those metal implants. apparently the concluded that pot smoking makes you heal slower. though if i've ever engaged in an activity in which i was likely to get injured when i was high, i was probably also drunk.

to address the addiction issue, what CI says is true. people can become addicted to it. but its not a physical addiction, your body doesn't undergo a physical craving for the drug or any withdrawal symptoms typically related to alcohol or cocaine. there is psychological addiction and CI spells that out pretty clearly in his above posts. i myself have seen one person succumb to this kind of addiction, though it must be said that he was mentally unstable regardless of pot smoking.

i agree that if it is legalized than the cops would have to give out DUI's for people driving over the legal limit of "high". how they would figure out how to do that would be a very fun process, cuz it would have to involve some kind of testing of the speed of your synapses or a certain phrase or question that induced the same response in all very high persons. either way a lot of weed would be smoked.

EDIT: and if any part of the states legalized marijuana before canada, i would be dissapoint. and holy hell @ that guy that smoked a joint on the steps of parliament and had jack layton say he'd fix the problem of weed being illegal still. if we voted for PM the same way Americans vote for President, layton would have my vote

This post has been edited by Sinisdar Toste: 10 March 2009 - 06:09 AM

[Cold Iron]

Sinisdar Toste, on Mar 10 2009, 05:04 PM, said:

to address the addiction issue, what CI says is true. people can become addicted to it. but its not a physical addiction, your body doesn't undergo a physical craving for the drug or any withdrawal symptoms typically related to alcohol or cocaine. there is psychological addiction and CI spells that out pretty clearly in his above posts. i myself have seen one person succumb to this kind of addiction, though it must be said that he was mentally unstable regardless of pot smoking.

The brain is physical. There is no distinction to a psychological addiction and a physical one. I myself had severe nightmares for about 2 months when I stopped smoking, which caused some insomnia and much irritability. I know people that have been completely unable to stomach food and feel nauseated just at the thought of eating whilst trying to quit. There is also almost always some memory loss and depression involved. In fact I found the physical effects from quiting pot were more severe than those I had from quitting cigarettes about 2 years later. The only thing harder about the cigs was their pervasiveness into your daily habits and routines, making them exceedingly difficult to banish from your thoughts.

[HoosierDaddy]

To be honest, you are the first person who has ever said they were "addicted" to marijuana I've ever encountered, CI. Two of my best friends in college, and that I'm very close to today, spent an entire year and a half getting stoned out of their minds everyday. From the moment they were awake to the moment they passed out. They failed out of our university for failure to go to class and take tests our junior year (all they did was smoke all day), but both had massive "self-discipline" problems in the first place. But, they both stopped using fairly heavily quite easily after having done so and being forced to enter the real world.

I guess I'm just a skeptic as to its ability to destroy a life. Stealing for pot money? In most part time jobs you can function adequately well being stoned our of your mind... so why not just be high and work at a shit ass job while being a stoner? I'm not trying to seem inconsiderate of the problems that you have detailed, but it is so out of the realm of every experience I've ever seen and experienced with marijuana it seems strange.

This post has been edited by HoosierDaddy: 10 March 2009 - 06:58 AM

[Sindriss]

I am all for legalising pot/weed. We had a minor city in Denmark where you could buy that stuff without any restrictions, they would have open tables in the middle of the street where you could come and look and buy. By the way, it was both pot and hash.
I really wish we could follow the good example set by the Nederlands and legalise it since the pro outweight the cons heavily.

[Tapper]

Sindriss, on Mar 10 2009, 11:57 AM, said:

I am all for legalising pot/weed. We had a minor city in Denmark where you could buy that stuff without any restrictions, they would have open tables in the middle of the street where you could come and look and buy. By the way, it was both pot and hash.
I really wish we could follow the good example set by the Nederlands and legalise it since the pro outweight the cons heavily.

It's not entirely legalized here. It's just tolerated - and the current (christian inspired) coalition is more or less of the opinion that that is a bad thing (and more or less impossible to maintain when taking the rest of Europe into the equation - France for example is very intolerant about drugs). It does not seem impossible that they will achieve outlawing the smart shops either - already, mushrooms are put on the banned list because there were too many accidents involving people drowning or otherwise dying (though probably not as many as people that got hit by drunken drivers and other alcohol related crimes - but those are much more low profile).

as it is, it is legal to sell it and smoke in the shop or at home, but it is illegal to grow it in industrial quantities. So, how a shop's owner should settle his supply chain is very much out in the open, nor is there a quality standard.

At the least, as far as I'm aware - aside from being dutch, I'm not an expert

[Cold Iron]

I'm not trying to claim that what I went through was anything like an amphetamine or opiate addiction, I didn't need a support group to stop, I didn't need to follow a 5 step plan. But I did hit an emotional rock bottom and I did suffer horrendously violent nightmares and my relationships with everybody in my life were severely damaged. As for it's ability to destroy a life, of the people I spoke of the worst cases are those which had at various times addictions to other substances, or have baggage from severe childhood trauma. The biggest long-term impacts that I would attribute to marijuana alone are short term memory loss and social withdrawal. But you're right, on it's own marijuana is going to take a very long time to have any severe and irreversible effects. The drug scene has more than one drug though and I know that without marijuana, the people I know who have permanent problems like psychosis, severe short term memory loss, severe social withdrawal and criminal records would not have done nearly as much of the other drugs that contributed to their problems.

[Raymond Luxury Yacht]

I don't have time to fully weigh in on this right now, but am eager to later. For now, a comment about sobriety tests. A doctor has told me that when cops do the "follow my flashlight with your eyes" routine, if you are under the influence of marijuana your eyes will uncontrollably wobble when you are looking all the way left or right. Not massive spams, but a slight twitch that can be seen if you are looking for it.

[Gothos]

Cold Iron, I think you should stop blaming the drug and look to the people involved for the reasons.

[Cold Iron]

Gothos, on Mar 29 2009, 11:24 PM, said:

Cold Iron, I think you should stop blaming the drug and look to the people involved for the reasons.

Yeah you're right, drugs are totally passive. It is completely the addicts fault. Also, depression is just dumb people who can't enjoy a good wank and ADD is just because of bad parenting.

ETA: Seriously though, yes each individual makes his/her own choices, so this is obviously a factor. Another factor is the way this individual was raised, so part of the blame should also go to the parents, as another part should go to the society and culture in which they live, which in part is due to the political, religious, and cultural leaders of this society. Beyond all of these factors though you are left with the reality that addictive drugs are addictive. You can't blame the drug, but you can remove it, and in so doing help those people at risk.

This post has been edited by Cold Iron: 30 March 2009 - 12:02 AM

[Sparkimus]

I had to quit smoking after I got a DUI, aparently there is a strong connection to drinking and driving and smoking pot. But really I had no trouble at all quitting, the main side effect was that I dont enjoy apple juice quite as much anymore.

I'm said and done with my punishment and i very very rarely partake anymore (mostly since I'm looking for work and the gf doesn't smoke), but there is never a craving for it.


All that aside, if they legalized it...I'd smoke.

[Leoman]

Sparkimus, on Mar 29 2009, 07:00 PM, said:

the main side effect was that I dont enjoy apple juice quite as much anymore.

I lol'ed.

I have smoked about 3-4 times a week for about 3 and a half years now, and during that time I have taken three 3 month long tolerance breaks, abstaining from all drugs (I don't drink, ever). The only thing I ever really had a bit of trouble quitting was Ecstasy and Cocaine, and as for MJ, I actually enjoyed the soberness almost at much as I enjoyed being high. After more than a few days of not smoking I had more energy throughout the day.
Never did I have any symptoms of nasea, insomnia, depression, or anything else you described, Cold Iron. I do, however, have friends who suffer from other psychological things that say smoking makes them depressed, etc., and that it's better if they don't smoke. So basically, I don't think that marijuana alone causes problems such as you described, but can certainly exacerbate other pre-existing symptoms.

[Cold Iron]

Leoman, on Mar 30 2009, 01:24 PM, said:

So basically, I don't think that marijuana alone causes problems such as you described, but can certainly exacerbate other pre-existing symptoms.

Yeah, it didn't happen to you, so I guess I'm wrong.

[Leoman]

Cold Iron, on Mar 29 2009, 08:43 PM, said:

Yeah, it didn't happen to you, so I guess I'm wrong.

Oh, it happened to you, so I guess you're right.


Perhaps your body simply reacts that way to marijuana withdrawal symptoms, but I don't think you can say for certain that that you had all those problems simply because you stopped smoking.

[Cold Iron]

Leoman, on Mar 31 2009, 02:13 PM, said:

Cold Iron, on Mar 29 2009, 08:43 PM, said:

Yeah, it didn't happen to you, so I guess I'm wrong.

Oh, it happened to you, so I guess you're right.


Perhaps your body simply reacts that way to marijuana withdrawal symptoms, but I don't think you can say for certain that that you had all those problems simply because you stopped smoking.

Of course it's different for everyone. I didn't get the nausea, but I know at least 4 people who did. I only know of one other person who experienced fucked up dreams aside from myself. A different couple of people got the severe withdrawal from society, one more guy got the psychosis and hears voices, and another has severe short term memory loss. They didn't all happen to everyone, and some of these guys had other addictions and conditions, sure, but we all lost weight, we all damaged our lungs, we all stopped caring enough about our selves and our families, we all went through some shit that can be blamed on pot.

[Leoman]

We have had different experiences so I don't see the point in arguing about them anymore, maybe I will ask my drug counselor about her knowledge tomorrow.

[Cold Iron]

It all depends on what kind of weed you're smoking and what your smoking habits are. That you just put my experiences down to other factors simply because you didn't experience the same thing is a bit narcissistic.

This post has been edited by Cold Iron: 31 March 2009 - 03:59 AM