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@Rane; Nok's account was certainly mistaken or misleading with regard to Hawl, it might similarly be in error with regard to Traveller.
who is keeper?
#2
Malaclypse 
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Posted 22 April 2004 - 10:18 AM
According to Nok's account, Dujek was first, followed by Nok, Ameron, and Hawl. Clearly Traveller is not Dujek, so Nok is lying or just plain wrong...if we can assume that Nok is telling the truth as he knows it, and we can hardly doubt Apsalar's words regarding Traveller, then Kellanved and Dancer had a 'secret partner' in Traveller..if Traveller is Dassem Ultor, and I admit the case seems strong that he is, there seems to be a period where his affiliation with Kellanved and Dancer is secret even to the rest of the 'family' which is very interesting..I would love to know more of Kellanved and dancer's travels during their two year absence 
and about Hawl: Nok had nothing whatever to say about Hawl other than she was recruited by Dujek on behalf odf K&D at the same time as Ameron and Nok himself. It is Gamet who brings up her 'death', and Nok says "Yes.her.",shrugs and moves on with his story.
oh, and I trust Apsalar's judgement when she says that Traveller and Company are preparing to leave. I highly doubt he remains there very long. Which means he could be anywhere
and about Hawl: Nok had nothing whatever to say about Hawl other than she was recruited by Dujek on behalf odf K&D at the same time as Ameron and Nok himself. It is Gamet who brings up her 'death', and Nok says "Yes.her.",shrugs and moves on with his story.
oh, and I trust Apsalar's judgement when she says that Traveller and Company are preparing to leave. I highly doubt he remains there very long. Which means he could be anywhere
#3
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Posted 22 April 2004 - 11:25 AM
I always found it strange that Nok didn't know his wife who was a Talon was alive, unless they had some sort of falling out, and hse faked her own death to avoid him?
Oh and another point whihc would support that travller was the third "secret" partner would be the fact taht dancer trusted two people kelvanned and dasseem, so dasseem would be the the third member of the partnership.
Oh and another point whihc would support that travller was the third "secret" partner would be the fact taht dancer trusted two people kelvanned and dasseem, so dasseem would be the the third member of the partnership.
#4 Guest__*
Posted 05 October 2004 - 12:38 PM
Don't know if this helps or hinders the debate but:-
Originally in HoC PB page 660:-
Which of the old guard are Dal Honese again?
Originally in HoC PB page 660:-
quote:
Ammanas grunted softly, then shrugged. "He'll [Traveller] have no interest in answering our questions. He never did. Stubborn as any Dal Honese.
Which of the old guard are Dal Honese again?
#5 Guest_rilkenaar_*
Posted 14 April 2004 - 02:58 AM
IMHO it doesn`t rules out Dassem, it just shows that Nok was thinking that he was first. Traveller might been on some jurney :-) and when he was back Nok was thinking that he was hired like other.
Nok never mentioned Traveller in his story, so he didn`t never knew him, or never knew him as a Traveller.
Dassem is still a good option for me. He was First Sword of Empire. Others were fists, grand fists, admirals, high mages. He was commander of whole malazan army, and his title never passed on someone else. There were no new First Sword.
Nok never mentioned Traveller in his story, so he didn`t never knew him, or never knew him as a Traveller.
Dassem is still a good option for me. He was First Sword of Empire. Others were fists, grand fists, admirals, high mages. He was commander of whole malazan army, and his title never passed on someone else. There were no new First Sword.
#6
Anomander
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Posted 12 April 2004 - 06:42 PM
Alright! Where's Brood?! Let's see him dispute this!
And so the First denied their Mother,
in their fury, and so were cast out,
doomed children of Mother Dark.
in their fury, and so were cast out,
doomed children of Mother Dark.
#7 Guest__*
Posted 07 October 2004 - 03:17 PM
He looks like the type that does stuff "undercover" -ish and likes to go unnoticed. And how better to "Travel" than on a inconspicuos navy patrol ship.
#8
caladanbrood
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Posted 13 April 2004 - 06:40 AM
right, finally time to use my evidence against this that i've found on my re-read
House of Chains, Trade Paperback, page 489.
House of Chains, Trade Paperback, page 209.
Ok, so lets look at this, Traveller was one of the original three, before Tayschrenn, Dujek and Surly. Well, that rules out Dassem Ultor pretty conclusively, doesn't it?
In all the theories that Dassem Ultor is Traveller, i've never actually heard any proof. Implications, yes, and comments that make it seem likely that its Dassem, but no concrete evidence. Now, we have actual evidence that it wasn't. Dispute that
Of course, this leaves us with the question of who Traveller actually is. I thought it could be Ameron, he joined very early, and was only half Napan, the other half could concievably be Dal Honese. But now i'm of the opinion that the original three Apsalar talks about is actually before any of this empire stuff, and has not been mentioned at all before in the books. I've always thought that Dancer has ascended before the empire, and was fooling them all, who's to say that Kellanved hadn't too, and Traveller was their companion, like Brood, Envy, Rake, Osric etc...
House of Chains, Trade Paperback, page 489.
quote:
Apsalar to Cutter, after the fight with the Edur on Drift Avalii:
"I knew him," she whispered, then shuddered. "Not my memories. Dancer's. Dancer knew him. Knew him well. They were... three. It was never just the two of them - did you know that? Never just Dancer and Kellanved. No, he was there. Almost from the very beginning. Before Tayschrenn, before Dujek, before even Surly."
House of Chains, Trade Paperback, page 209.
quote:
Admiral Nok to Fist Gamet and Adjusct Tavore:
The family that he gathered to raise an empire. Kellanved began with one companion - Dancer. The two then hired a handful of locals in Malaz City and set about conquering the criminal element of the city."
...
"Who were these first hirelings, Admiral?"
"Myself, Ameron, Dujek, a woman named Hawl - my wife."
...
Dancer later bolstered our numbers by by recruiting among the refugee Napans who'd fled the conquest [of the Napan Isles by Unta]: Cartheron Crust and his brother, Urko.And Surly - Laseen. Three more men were to follow shortly thereafter. Toc Elder, Dassem Ultor - who was, like Kellanved, or Dal Honese blood - and a renegade High Septarch of the D'rek Cult, Tayschrenn. And finally, Duiker."
Ok, so lets look at this, Traveller was one of the original three, before Tayschrenn, Dujek and Surly. Well, that rules out Dassem Ultor pretty conclusively, doesn't it?
In all the theories that Dassem Ultor is Traveller, i've never actually heard any proof. Implications, yes, and comments that make it seem likely that its Dassem, but no concrete evidence. Now, we have actual evidence that it wasn't. Dispute that
Of course, this leaves us with the question of who Traveller actually is. I thought it could be Ameron, he joined very early, and was only half Napan, the other half could concievably be Dal Honese. But now i'm of the opinion that the original three Apsalar talks about is actually before any of this empire stuff, and has not been mentioned at all before in the books. I've always thought that Dancer has ascended before the empire, and was fooling them all, who's to say that Kellanved hadn't too, and Traveller was their companion, like Brood, Envy, Rake, Osric etc...
O xein', angellein Lakedaimoniois hoti têde; keimetha tois keinon rhémasi peithomenoi.
#9
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Posted 08 October 2004 - 10:05 AM
As far as i recall traveller didnt set off with the navy patrol, but only accompnaied them for a short time... why he ended up on teh boat though i dont know, i suspect it is to do with hawl and the talon...
#10 Guest_xeero_*
Posted 10 November 2004 - 12:41 PM
u guys r forgetting something there r so many little clues traveller is of the same people as kellevand (dal hon..), who in the old guard was from dal hon?
hmmm it was daseem u clowns. daseem lord of tragedy (aka lord of tears). where he goes ill fortune is sure to follow. exhibit B in house of chains traveller is the only one who survived of the malazan marines that went to meet the edur ships....again tragedy!! daseem is traveller, traveller is daseem!!!!
hmmm it was daseem u clowns. daseem lord of tragedy (aka lord of tears). where he goes ill fortune is sure to follow. exhibit B in house of chains traveller is the only one who survived of the malazan marines that went to meet the edur ships....again tragedy!! daseem is traveller, traveller is daseem!!!!
#11 Guest_Tehol_*
Posted 05 October 2004 - 06:58 PM
One thing thats just come to mind regarding the appearance of Hawl and Traveller on Drift Avaali, with the company of marines.
What were they doing there? I know it says they were blown off course, but why were Hawl - supposedly dead and if alive on the run from lassen, Traveller, either DU(?) or someone else linker the Kellanved in the company of Malazan Marines? Leads me to think, what were they doing and how did they come to be there. They seemed pretty beat up from the impression i got when reading the first time. Obviously we're gonna hear more of the Traveller story, but what about Hawl's and the other marines story, sounds very interesting?
What were they doing there? I know it says they were blown off course, but why were Hawl - supposedly dead and if alive on the run from lassen, Traveller, either DU(?) or someone else linker the Kellanved in the company of Malazan Marines? Leads me to think, what were they doing and how did they come to be there. They seemed pretty beat up from the impression i got when reading the first time. Obviously we're gonna hear more of the Traveller story, but what about Hawl's and the other marines story, sounds very interesting?
#12
caladanbrood
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Posted 24 April 2004 - 10:24 AM
I still like the idea of a completely new character who was never very major in the empire... but whatever
O xein', angellein Lakedaimoniois hoti têde; keimetha tois keinon rhémasi peithomenoi.
#13 Guest_MortalSword_*
Posted 11 April 2004 - 03:31 AM
Hmm, wonder if this thread is still alive...
In regards to the theory that Dassem, Dancer and Kellenvad are in on it together, I think this might be possible, because it would work with the theory suggested in HoC of the ascended Shadowthrone seating himself on as many thrones as possible to remove those thrones from possible use by other Aascendants or Gods.
In regards to the theory that Dassem, Dancer and Kellenvad are in on it together, I think this might be possible, because it would work with the theory suggested in HoC of the ascended Shadowthrone seating himself on as many thrones as possible to remove those thrones from possible use by other Aascendants or Gods.
#14
Anomander
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Posted 13 April 2004 - 01:14 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Rane Longfox:
Ok, so lets look at this, Traveller was one of the original three, before Tayschrenn, Dujek and Surly. Well, that rules out Dassem Ultor pretty conclusively, doesn't it?
Erm, how exactly does this rule out Dassem? I don't recall there being any proof of him joining after Tayschrenn or Surly.
And so the First denied their Mother,
in their fury, and so were cast out,
doomed children of Mother Dark.
in their fury, and so were cast out,
doomed children of Mother Dark.
#15 Guest__*
Posted 12 April 2004 - 02:18 PM
. Thanks for ressurecting this thread Mortal Sword (Have you introduced yourself in The Phoenix Inn yet btw??? Step in some time ). As usual the ressurection of a thread sheds new light on the topic 
. A shedload of ideas just came into my head as I reread the posts and bits of HoC. Here goes then.
Dassem Ultor ascended and is know known as Dessembrae, Lord of Tears/Lord of Tragedy, right. Now then I think Traveller is indeed Dessembrae/Daseem Ultor because when Cutter (Crokus) tells him about Andarists sword, it's wielder needing a singular will, its names etc. Traveller replies:-
Originally from HoC PB p.534-535
This implies to me anyways that Traveller seeks vengeance on someone and that he has that singular will. The vengeance being to Hood (the taking of Daseems daughter), the singular will, to accomplish it. What more suitable sword could there be for the Lord of Tragedy/Tears.
Also Daseem/Dessembrae is the Lord of Tragedy/Tears. Traveller says:-
Originally from HoC PB p.535
i.) It seems fitting that the Lord of Tragedy/Tears would respect and take up Andarists cause, given Andarists long grief, isolation and suffering (yet unknown cause but linked to Scabandari Bloodeye).
ii.) Sorrow was the only emotion seen by Cutter even more in fitting for the God of Tragedy/Tears.
iii.) He probably buried many companions in the Malazan Army and may even have "buried" Dancer and Kellanved (questionable).
iv.) And he refers to Cutter as a "mortal" suggesting he is not. And also kind of suggests that he has a link somehow to Cotilion because they never saw each other in the battle and Cutter never mentioned Cotillion in their conversation yet traveller tells him to "Thank his God. . . for the sword" because:-
Originally HoC PB p.533
Confirming that Cotillion and Traveller never actually met in the battle but they still knew of each others prescence and Cotillion was saddened by Travellers meer presence. A consequence of Traveller's/Daseem's past.
Also:-
Originally HoC PB p.530
Yet a sliver more proof that Traveller used to be part of, or at least stood for the Malazan Empire. And the "More than you know" comment seems to indicate that it was pretty high up in the hierachy too.
All this (to me anyways) points towards Dassem Ultor ascended to become Dessembrae who walks the world as Traveller.
). As usual the ressurection of a thread sheds new light on the topic . A shedload of ideas just came into my head as I reread the posts and bits of HoC. Here goes then. Dassem Ultor ascended and is know known as Dessembrae, Lord of Tears/Lord of Tragedy, right. Now then I think Traveller is indeed Dessembrae/Daseem Ultor because when Cutter (Crokus) tells him about Andarists sword, it's wielder needing a singular will, its names etc. Traveller replies:-
Originally from HoC PB p.534-535
quote:
Traveller stuidied the blade in his hand. "Vengeance," he murmured. . .
This implies to me anyways that Traveller seeks vengeance on someone and that he has that singular will. The vengeance being to Hood (the taking of Daseems daughter), the singular will, to accomplish it. What more suitable sword could there be for the Lord of Tragedy/Tears.
Also Daseem/Dessembrae is the Lord of Tragedy/Tears. Traveller says:-
Originally from HoC PB p.535
quote:
[Crokus]"How long will you plam on staying here, in Andarist's role?"
[Traveller]"Long enough to do him honour.". . . He[Crokus] looked up, met those eyes[Travellers] - and saw sorrow there, the first emotion yet to be revealed from the man. . . [Traveller] "It will not be the first time I have buried companions". . . [Traveller]"Thank your God, mortal," he growled, his back still to Cutter, "for the sword. . . "
i.) It seems fitting that the Lord of Tragedy/Tears would respect and take up Andarists cause, given Andarists long grief, isolation and suffering (yet unknown cause but linked to Scabandari Bloodeye).
ii.) Sorrow was the only emotion seen by Cutter even more in fitting for the God of Tragedy/Tears.
iii.) He probably buried many companions in the Malazan Army and may even have "buried" Dancer and Kellanved (questionable).
iv.) And he refers to Cutter as a "mortal" suggesting he is not. And also kind of suggests that he has a link somehow to Cotilion because they never saw each other in the battle and Cutter never mentioned Cotillion in their conversation yet traveller tells him to "Thank his God. . . for the sword" because:-
Originally HoC PB p.533
quote:
Cotillion's face fell, as if with a sudden, deep sorrow. "When he[Traveller] is done out there," he said to Cutter, guide him to the sword, "Tell him it's names".
"He?"
Confirming that Cotillion and Traveller never actually met in the battle but they still knew of each others prescence and Cotillion was saddened by Travellers meer presence. A consequence of Traveller's/Daseem's past.
Also:-
Originally HoC PB p.530
quote:
"You claim this fight in the name of the Malazan Empire?" the captain asked.
"More than you know," Traveller replied.
Yet a sliver more proof that Traveller used to be part of, or at least stood for the Malazan Empire. And the "More than you know" comment seems to indicate that it was pretty high up in the hierachy too.
All this (to me anyways) points towards Dassem Ultor ascended to become Dessembrae who walks the world as Traveller.
#16 Guest_Tehol_*
Posted 07 October 2004 - 02:45 PM
Yes, thats what the book says, but why would “Traveller†obviously someone very important be on a simple Navy patrol?
#17
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Posted 05 October 2004 - 02:06 PM
Dassem and kelvanned were the only two of the old gaurd who were dal honese (well of the ones nok mentions anyway)
#18
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Posted 06 October 2004 - 01:45 PM
hawl and teh marines were just part of teh navy patrolling teh area, they got blown off course and attacked by the edur. Why hawl was with teh navy who knows, a lto fo teh old gaurd went to gorund and hid in the ranks so hawl could ahve done that, but why she didnt tell her husband nok i dont know.
that whole incident leaves me to believ nok was deliberatly lying to tavore about the original family thing, i suspect he knew she was alive, she was on a ship under his command for one...
that whole incident leaves me to believ nok was deliberatly lying to tavore about the original family thing, i suspect he knew she was alive, she was on a ship under his command for one...
#19
Malaclypse
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Posted 23 April 2004 - 08:08 AM
Nok may or may not have known that Hawl survived, he never admits to an opinion on the matter.
This idea of a secret alliance between Kellanved, Dancer and Dassem preceding the accumulation of the 'family' seems likely..all three assassinated at Laseen's command, all three ascended into Gods. Can't wait to see what their game is
This idea of a secret alliance between Kellanved, Dancer and Dassem preceding the accumulation of the 'family' seems likely..all three assassinated at Laseen's command, all three ascended into Gods. Can't wait to see what their game is
#20 Guest_rilkenaar_*
Posted 12 April 2004 - 03:20 PM
Intresting theory. One more thing fits: Admiral Nok said that Traveller was Dalhonian, like Kellanved, and on island when Cottilion and Shadowthrone burry Hawl (wife of Nok, btw!) Kellanved says that Traveller won`t speak with him cause hi is stubborn like all Dalhonians.
