Malazan Empire: Why is Rashan considered "Shadow" and not "Darkness" - Malazan Empire

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Why is Rashan considered "Shadow" and not "Darkness" Rate Topic: -----

#1 User is offline   blackzoid 

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Posted 18 February 2009 - 12:55 PM

Quick question, been rereading MOI and will reread HOC next:

The warren of Rashan: why is it considered to be the human warren of Shadow and not the human warren of Darkness?
In HOC, they go into how Quick Ben and the others killed all the Rashan priests so that Meanas could supplant it, but before that happened why was Rashan considered a Shadow warren at all?

In the appendices its allways classified as the human warren of Darkness.

Is it a mistake in the appendices?
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#2 User is offline   Abyss 

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Posted 18 February 2009 - 03:38 PM

Not exactly - thru the books Rashan is ref'd variously as being Darkness or Shadow, but Meanas is ref'd as both Illusion and Shadow. various Mages, High, Cadre and Squad, use one or both along with Thyr and Mokra and in Bottle's case other fun stuff, to similar effect.

In MoI someone speculates that Nightchill used Rashan, but they could never quite be sure. In HoC Bidithal goes on about how Rashan is the original warren of Darkness or something and Meanas just a reflection. When Kel and Dancer were solidifying their grip on Shadow (even before they ascended) they took out various rival Shadow cults including a 7C Rashani cult (where QB met Lostara).

To complicate it all, we have whatever Krul and the Dragons (is it just me or does that read like a 70s progressive rock group?) did that subdivided the warrens, the fact that Kurald Emurlahn fragments and its component chunks, which would include elements of Light and Darkness, are floating around in various parts...

All of which is to say, it isn't a mistake, it's an interpretation.


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#3 User is offline   D'rek 

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Posted 18 February 2009 - 10:36 PM

SE's explanation when asked about this was that humans basically aren't getting it quite right for stupid reasons. It sounded reasonable when he said it, but it doesn't when i try to recall it...

A big thing on this is how Kulp in DG is said to be a mage of Meanas Rashan (as if they're one warren). Supposedly Seven Cities mages sort of blend the two together conceptually and don't realize they are different warrens or some such...

View Postworrywort, on 14 September 2012 - 08:07 PM, said:

I kinda love it when D'rek unleashes her nerd wrath, as I knew she would here. Sorry innocent bystanders, but someone's gotta be the kindling.
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#4 User is offline   Silencer 

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Posted 19 February 2009 - 06:58 AM

There's that, and there is also what we had with QB in GotM - he said it was merely a false version of Meanas - a Shadow of a Shadow, if you will. Obviously, that interpretation is not correct, as Meanas is itself but a fragment. While it is entirely possible that Rashan is another fragment, we haven't actually seen anyone use it. Nor have we had much discussion on the matter since.

I'd say that I doubt it's the human version of Kurald Galain, but that's just a bit of minor speculation.
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#5 User is offline   Cowl's Disciple 

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Posted 19 February 2009 - 11:40 AM

I think it's fitting we're all so confused by Rashan, Meanas, & Mockra considering how often we see them used as tools of obfuscation in the series! :o
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#6 User is offline   blackzoid 

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Posted 19 February 2009 - 11:49 AM

Hmm. Interesting points all round.

I guess since Kurald Gurlain never shattered, it doesn't make sense that Rashan could be a fragment of it.
Maybe Rashan is one way of looking at Kurald Emurlahn and Menas is another.
Rashan could be the "dark" parts of Shadow and Menas could be the "shadowey" parts of Shadow.
Not a great explanation I know.
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#7 User is offline   Soulessdreamer 

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Posted 19 February 2009 - 02:32 PM

View PostD'rek, on Feb 19 2009, 11:36 AM, said:

SE's explanation when asked about this was that humans basically aren't getting it quite right for stupid reasons. It sounded reasonable when he said it, but it doesn't when i try to recall it...

A big thing on this is how Kulp in DG is said to be a mage of Meanas Rashan (as if they're one warren). Supposedly Seven Cities mages sort of blend the two together conceptually and don't realize they are different warrens or some such...



Maybe most mortal human mages can only grasp/understand one warren with their minds expect for rare savants like bottle (QB using other minds to handle this), without going insane or something.

Or human perception maybe limited/flawed and the only way we can understand the elder warrens to to not see the whole but only part.

It sounds like the dragons seperated the raw primordial chaos of magic into manageable chunks allowing races/people to get to the stuff via whatever path resonated with them.

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#8 User is offline   Abyss 

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Posted 19 February 2009 - 04:09 PM

View Postblackzoid, on Feb 19 2009, 06:49 AM, said:

...Rashan could be the "dark" parts of Shadow and Menas could be the "shadowey" parts of Shadow.
Not a great explanation I know.


Not a ridic intepretation. Consider that KE had components of Dark and Light in it. When it shattered, the bits of dark perhaps had to go somewhere...


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#9 User is offline   D'rek 

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Posted 19 February 2009 - 09:25 PM

View PostSoulessdreamer, on Feb 19 2009, 09:32 AM, said:

Maybe most mortal human mages can only grasp/understand one warren with their minds expect for rare savants like bottle (QB using other minds to handle this), without going insane or something.

Or human perception maybe limited/flawed and the only way we can understand the elder warrens to to not see the whole but only part.

It sounds like the dragons seperated the raw primordial chaos of magic into manageable chunks allowing races/people to get to the stuff via whatever path resonated with them.

TTFN


A good try at an explanation, but unfortunately there's a lot of mages who use multiple warrens and surely aren't savants. Tayschreen can use at least 4 (Thyr, Telas, D'riss, Denul), Bottle uses a bunch (Mockra, Meanas, Thyr), and several others do so suspectedly (but not directly mentioned), like Ebron or Deadsmell.

View Postworrywort, on 14 September 2012 - 08:07 PM, said:

I kinda love it when D'rek unleashes her nerd wrath, as I knew she would here. Sorry innocent bystanders, but someone's gotta be the kindling.
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#10 User is offline   Ain't_It_Just_ 

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Posted 20 February 2009 - 09:55 AM

I remember it once being described as "Meanas Rashan." Maybe Rashan just tends more towards darkness.
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#11 User is offline   Soulessdreamer 

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Posted 20 February 2009 - 01:05 PM

View PostD'rek, on Feb 20 2009, 10:25 AM, said:

View PostSoulessdreamer, on Feb 19 2009, 09:32 AM, said:

Maybe most mortal human mages can only grasp/understand one warren with their minds expect for rare savants like bottle (QB using other minds to handle this), without going insane or something.

Or human perception maybe limited/flawed and the only way we can understand the elder warrens to to not see the whole but only part.

It sounds like the dragons seperated the raw primordial chaos of magic into manageable chunks allowing races/people to get to the stuff via whatever path resonated with them.

TTFN


A good try at an explanation, but unfortunately there's a lot of mages who use multiple warrens and surely aren't savants. Tayschreen can use at least 4 (Thyr, Telas, D'riss, Denul), Bottle uses a bunch (Mockra, Meanas, Thyr), and several others do so suspectedly (but not directly mentioned), like Ebron or Deadsmell.


Oopps. Mea culpa. while I think bottle is/was a savant what I meant to say was that multiple warren capable mages are rare amoung mages like savants amoung normal populations not that one had to be a savant to use multiple warrens.

Sorry for any confusion

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#12 User is offline   Raraku 

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Posted 20 February 2009 - 09:56 PM

I think in MOI QB mentions that ST is just in- charge of the Gatehouse of Shadow and this is Meanas.
In any case i always thought that the fracturing of KE caused a evolution (or de-evolution) which is why Meanas, Rashan and Mokra are a part of what originally was KE.
Also Rashan as Abyss and Blackizoid said is possibly the darker parts of Shadow.

#13 User is offline   Lisheo 

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Posted 20 February 2009 - 11:18 PM

Or perhaps Rashan is the degenerated human Warren of Elder Darkness, and, as we've seen, all human warrens don't quite compare with their Elder variations. So it's not true Darkness, it's lesser darkness, ie, basically, a dark shadow.

As for why people consider it Shadow eyc, well, they don't know everything in the MBotF.

If there can be a human version of Kurald Liosan/Thyrllan in the form of Thyrr, I can't see why we can't have a human accesible Darkness.
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#14 User is offline   Ain't_It_Just_ 

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Posted 21 February 2009 - 10:52 AM

This will sound crazy but:

You know the power of the First Throne wanes, right? Could that be giving strength to Telas?
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#15 User is offline   Aptorian 

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Posted 21 February 2009 - 10:57 AM

I don't think it works that way. The House Warrens and Hold Warrens exist independantly of each other.

Of course on the other hand, they are logically both tapping the same source... which could have some effect.

Not really any way to know one way or another.
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#16 User is offline   Karnadas 

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Posted 24 February 2009 - 01:06 PM

Don't know how much it adds to the discussion, but I found this quote:

p.514 Uk Bantam paperback edition:

Quote

The art of Rashan is found in the tension that binds the games of light, yet its aspect is one of dissipation- the creation of shadow and of dark, although in this case the dark is not absolute, such as is the aspect of the ancient warren, Kurald Galain. No, this dark is particular, for it exists, not through an absence of light, but by virtue of being seen.

The Mysteries of Rashan - a madman's discourse
Untural of Lato Revae


This suggests to me that Rashan could indeed be a fragment of Emurlhan or indeed a degenerate evolution of Galain... It proves it's not pure dark, at least.
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#17 User is offline   Ain't_It_Just_ 

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Posted 25 February 2009 - 12:32 AM

Hmmm....you know the birth of Light created Shadow? Maybe the existence of Shadow and Dark has created Rashan, a bit of both, see?

I wonder if the Tiste Edur know anything about this...but I doubt it. So far they've exclusively used Shadow.
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#18 User is offline   Karnadas 

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Posted 25 February 2009 - 02:22 PM

Having read further, I'm thinking that Rashan is indeed just a darker fragment of Emurlahn - Heboric thinks of the shattered warren as riven through with Rashan, which makes it susceptible to Tavore's Otataral sword. This may just be his speculation, but then again, Shaik - and the Whirwind Goddess' fear seems to confirm this.

So presumably, when Emurlahn shattered, it gave birth to two or three younger warrens - Meanas, Rashan and (possibly) Thyr... The human-accessible warrens of interaction between light and darkness.
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#19 User is offline   Trull's son 

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Posted 04 March 2009 - 02:26 AM

Much speculation floating about I see. Can we relate Mockra more with Denul then with Rashan and Meanas? Because although illusion can alter someones perception, it does so indirectly. Whereas Mockra is a straight forward mindf*ck. I think the use of these warens for subterfuge and stealth have wrongly mangled mockra with those dealing with different shades of, ehh, shadow... am I wrong to treat mockra as something seperate?
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#20 User is offline   Lisheo 

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Posted 04 March 2009 - 10:25 AM

Rashan was the supposed warren of the Sister of Cold Nights... It'd be more of a cold dusk if it was shadow.
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