[Old Hunch Arbat]

Spoiler below re: book's ending - I assume you've all finished the book. If not - DON"T READ THIS.


Vorcan's daughter/Mellick's agent kills Laseen. Who then kills, or attacks this hald-demon assassin? There is a brief description of warren magic and heavy throwing knives that appear to kill, or at least badly injure her, and then she is pulled out of play, presumably/possibly by the Crippled God. To me this sounded very much like what would go along with QB and Kalam working together again.

Throughout the series Kalam is described as heavier and bigger than the typical Claw agent, and we are told that he uses heavier weapons (and no, I'm not going back through all the books to find specific references) than others. Any ideas? And if not Kalam and QB, who attacked Laseen's killer?

OHA

[Aptorian]

Did anyone attack Laseens killer? When did this happen?

If it was on the battlefield it was probably Possum or that guy Choss or what ever his name was.

If it was in the warren it was Topper.

[foolio]

I thought it was other random claws.They were in the middle of a military camp and the fight with Cowl I would think would have drawn a crowd...It was mentioned that she(vorcans daughter) was attacked over Possums shoulder as he was on his knees facing Laseen and her killer.

Why would Kalam and Quick Ben want to attack Laseens killer?

I think it would be cool to find out that she was getting help from Cotillion or Shadowthrone. Or even if Cotillion would have shown up right after she killed laseen, slapped vorcans daughter on the ass and said "nice job sweet tits..."

This post has been edited by foolio: 17 February 2009 - 09:56 PM

[Toc]

Hm.. I always assumed it was just some regular mages and soldiers who attacked Laseen's killer. It says when she screams "Done!" that warren magic and heavy throwing knifes are thrown at her, and that soldiers and mages comes running.

It's a bit far fetched to assume that it's Quick Ben and Kalam based on heavy throwing knifes and warren magic. I think that regular soldiers carry throwing-weapons aswell.

[Old Hunch Arbat]

Aptorian, on Feb 17 2009, 01:05 PM, said:

Did anyone attack Laseens killer? When did this happen?

If it was on the battlefield it was probably Possum or that guy Choss or what ever his name was.

If it was in the warren it was Topper.

Apt - see pp 662-664 Canadian hardcover (or equivalent). I went through this one character at a time. Let me quote so you can see how I analyzed possibilities - starting with Laseen's encounter with Cowl, as Possum helps, gets stabbed, and then almost dying, watches what unfolds. And remember, it was NOT Cowl who stabbed Possum from behind, as he (Cowl) was figthing both Possum and Laseen at the time. Both Laseen and Possum step back as Topper nails Cowl from behind and then Mallick's agent/half demon/Vorcan's daughter stabs Possum. So describing from where Cowl is hit by Topper...

..."And so they are off chasing each other across Realms and Warrens. Cowl and Topper, hated enemies and rivals from their first meeting."

Laseen and Possum watch as the Cowl/Topper fight starts and then Possum is stabbed by the demon...

"Possum fell to his knees, and a hand, his chest cramped. Gods! He couldn't breathe! Punctured a lung, he was sure of it.
'Bring a healer,' Laseen called to the soldiers who'd run up."

So Possum is down, and Topper and Cowl are off into the Warrens and Realms, fighting one another. Laseen is trying to help Possum and is herself then stabbed by the same demon who has just done in Possum. The demon-assasin is then, in turn, also immediately attacked - by an overwhelmingly powerful force. Unless Mallick has some major assasins held in reserve that we don't know of there are no other Claw(s) who could launch a coordinated and powerful assault like this hanging around - Coil has been wiping them out and Possum (much to his own dismay) has just killed Coil. This quote captures both the demon's response to killing Laseen (from behind) and as she gloats is herself assaulted and perhaps killed...

"'Done' she gloated, then jumped, blades flashing to parry heavy throwing knives that hissed past Possum. Warren magics blew her backwards in waves of power, and she writhed, snarling and flailing amid the darkened dirt of the crater. A Warren opened and she fell within, her form melting, transforming into some thing else."

So once again:

- Coil has wiped out (at least was in the process of) Mallick's "turned" Claws
- Coil is dead by Possum
- Topper and Cowl are figting one another in the Warrens, keeping one another fully occupied
- Possum is down on his knees, stabbed from behind
- Laseen is dying, stabbed from behind

And THEN someone (or perhaps/probably 2 people) attack the demon.

Tay and Kiska are out of the picture, having done what they could against Yath's ritual and attempt to open the Chaos portal. The throwing knives that assault the demon are described as heavy. So who does that leave?

Edgewalker is doing as ST and Cot asked him - mitigating and kicking out all those attempting to duck into Shadow Realm as they battle. It is knives, not ropes that hit the demon so it is unlikely that ST and Cot are launching the attack on the demon.

I am very tempted to think that Kalam and QB are back in the picture.

What think ye?

OHA

This post has been edited by Old Hunch Arbat: 17 February 2009 - 10:43 PM

[Stalker]

I doubt it is Quick and Kalam, doesn't really fit. I'm betting it was just some soldiers who were around while the fighting occured, if anyone even killed her killers.

On another note, the title of this thread is a major spoiler for anyone looking through the active topics. If they haven't read this novel yet learning that Laseen died isn't something that want to find out yet.

[Old Hunch Arbat]

Stalker, on Feb 17 2009, 03:06 PM, said:

I doubt it is Quick and Kalam, doesn't really fit. I'm betting it was just some soldiers who were around while the fighting occured, if anyone even killed her killers.

On another note, the title of this thread is a major spoiler for anyone looking through the active topics. If they haven't read this novel yet learning that Laseen died isn't something that want to find out yet.

What is the title of the thread?

I started the thread and to me it reads "Mellick's Agent and the "ending", Are Kalam and QB back?" I can't see Laseen's death mentioned anywhere. And I then start the thread by mentioning a "Spoiler" - and saying something to the effect of "If you haven't read the book don't read this thread." If some beknighted forum member wants to plough through both the thread title and the warning about the spoiler perhaps a quick tap on the noggin with Dragnipur would do them some good.

So could we please not go through any more of those "You shouldn't have posted this there, or that here...", or whatever the hell the scolds are so fond of preaching about.

OHA

[Stalker]

I was merely helping other members of the forum who when looking at the active topics page could see that you put Laseem had died.

After I pointed this out one of the mods edited it to be forum friendly. Spoilers are ok and I am caught up but there are many others out who wouldn't appreciate a major spoiler when looking over threads. That wasn't directed at you, rather my comment was directed towards mods like Apt to help others out. Spoilers in the thread are ok since clearly they have been warned.

[Old Hunch Arbat]

Stalker, on Feb 17 2009, 03:50 PM, said:

I was merely helping other members of the forum who when looking at the active topics page could see that you put Laseem had died.

After I pointed this out one of the mods edited it to be forum friendly.

With all due respect...WTF are you talking about?

I titled the thread myself - there was no need for any mod of any sort, that I'm aware of, to change it. And where the hell, in the title of the thread, did I state that Laseen had died? You say, in your response to the topic...

Quote

...other members of the forum who when looking at the active topics page could see that you put Laseem had died.

No I did not.

I am confused and I wonder if we're even reading the same thread. I did NOT state that Laseen had died in the title. The title was, from the outset, what it is now.

That Laseen had died was included in the body of the topic *only after* I had warned that there was spoiler material in the body of the post - i.e. the spoiler warning was placed before the statement that Laseen had died.

So - given that the title is what it is, and that it was *NOT* modified by anything or anybody, and that *I* (not a mod) mentioned that there might be spoiler material in the *BODY* of the thread, where are we supposed to discuss the fact that Laseen died? In the forum devoted to the next book in the series?

OHA

[Cowl's Disciple]

I read the knives as coming from the soldiers nearby (the ones Laseen shouts for when Possum gets hit) as certainly soldiers would be likely to carry heavy knives and they're close enough to throw knives (but not to help Laseen).

The warren attack is harder to explain, perhaps coming from some nearby mages (although some powerful enough to drive the assassin off).

The only reason I don't think it is Kalam & QB is that I would have thought ICE would make such a return more explicit.

This post has been edited by Thyr: 18 February 2009 - 12:38 AM

[Stalker]

Listen it doesn't matter now that it was fixed, but it read:
Melick's agent and the "ending", who killed Laseen's killers and are Kalam and QB back?

I'm not calling you out or anything I was merely drawing the mods attention to it; the spoiler in the title.
It is perfectly fine to discuss Laseen being dead in these forums but when people look at the active topics thread anyone can see the first bit which was a spoiler.


So that said, back to the actual subject here of who fought the Killers of Laseem. You describe the soldiers who attacked the demon as "heavy," is it possible that Temper and the other ex-Dassem guard were the two to fight against this demon. They fight Rylandras (sp?) later, so maybe they fought this one first?

[Cowl's Disciple]

Stalker, on Feb 18 2009, 10:43 AM, said:

So that said, back to the actual subject here of who fought the Killers of Laseem. You describe the soldiers who attacked the demon as "heavy," is it possible that Temper and the other ex-Dassem guard were the two to fight against this demon. They fight Rylandras (sp?) later, so maybe they fought this one first?

Much like Kalam & QB, if it was Temper & Co. why wouldn't ICE have been more explicit? Also, it still wouldn't explain the use of warrens.

[Old Hunch Arbat]

I don't know if someone browsing the forums can see the thread as it is being typed and before the "Add Reply" button has been hit - i.e. if I hit the "Preview Post" button does that allow someone to see the title before the final edit? I'll stop being grumpy.

Anyhow - to respond.

Temper has no magic, nor does Ferrule/Sweetgrass. Furthermore it was not the assailant who was described as "heavy," it was the weight of the throwing knives - and Kalam is often described as being big and strong enough to handle heavy knives like this.

I could go through the various other characters capable of magic, and who have been described as "players" in RotCG, eliminate them one at a time from the list of candidates capable of launching this type of attack - and by capable I mean not only possessing the attributes, but physically located in such a way as to logically mount the assault - and eliminate most, if not all of them as viable. I am, however, trying less to claim, definitively, that it was Kalam and QB, than I am attempting draw attention to what I see as a deliberate literary device used to focus our curiosity upon the killing of Mallick's favorite assasin. What we are *not* told is as important (even more so perhaps) as what we are. My reasoning:

1. The inclusion of this final description of the demon's disposition is not accidental. If the identities of the assailants are *not* important then the manner in which the demon leaves the scene would not be what it is. It could have "disappeared" and walked away, etc., etc. thereby leaving the scene nicely wrapped up and out of the way, but it did not. It (the demon) was summarily dealt with by personages of considerable power and whose identity ICE will/did not disclose. If the description was not intended to stimulate some curiosity and debate I suspect it would not have been written in this way. IMO we are thus left with a big unanswered question. It is only a question, however, if one is paying attention. I did not notice it until my second time through the book. I suspect that other, smarter folks will have noticed it first time round.

2. SE and ICE do not often leave ends such as these (I won't call them "loose ends" because I don't think they are) unresolved, although they make take their time in getting around to answering/resolving them. Even though they often don't openly explain the resolution in a declarative sort of way they almost always give us enough information to formulate answers of significance for ourselves - or enough information and possible "tie ins" to enlarge the realm of intriguing possi bilities, and in doing so make the question and its answer(s) even more significant. And, no offense to those who offer up "some soldier or mage who was hanging around the battlefield" as an answer, this is not exactly the sort of solution our authors usually leave us with. But that's one of the beauties of this series. It is a "smashing good read" even without the obsessive/compulsive approach to solving every puzzle, demystifying every mystery, answering every question and "effing" the all the ineffables.

As I mention above, I am not completely committed to the "Kalam and QB" solution. I am, however, convinced that the identities of the ultimate assailants in this case, are not trivial. In keeping with the usual methods and rationales used by our authors for this event unfolding in this particular way, and in opining that this was not just another battlefield killing - it was an assasination (of the demon) - I offer the following headings as possible categories for such:

1. Personal vendetta
2. Political expedience
3. A failure in some protective arrangement - said arrangement possibly unknown to Laseen herself (i.e. a failed rescue attempt - just a little too late)with subheadings
I) Secular protection by a group of mortals using/manipulating Laseen without her awareness
II) Protection by a patron/matron with one or more gods or ascendants using Laseen without her awareness

I will also point out another possible candidate, as I cannot explain his whereabouts - Silk +/- a companion. Descriptions of Silk's activities seem to come to an end shortly before the demon is wiped out. All the rest of those with the capacity to take out a demon can, I believe, be accounted for.

Opinions?

OHA

[Stalker]

ok so it appears to be something that isn't explained, a loose end type of thing. In the event that nothing is turned up, perhaps this is something that will be tackled in another Malaz novel?

Two thoughts though... 1) What about Greymane? He is ex-malazan fist and could be in his interest to keep Laseen alive or fight off demon
2) the rest of the Crimson Guard (not Skinner's bunch) may have some weird reason for attacking this demon. They have weapons and warrens. Maybe an enemy of my enemy type logic?

[Old Hunch Arbat]

If it had been Greymane I suspect the physical aspects (non-magical) of the assault on the demon would have been more "personal" - as in the manner he tackled Skinner - hand to hand. Knives would be unlikely. But yup - keeping Laseen alive would benefit those Crimson Guard opposed to Skinner.

I'm going to post later, an off-the-wall opinion about the Guard's vow, and how it could be warped to keep the Avowed in perpetual servitude to Skinner, so that he would have a "bound" cadre - similar in nature to the vow which kept the T'Lan bound to whomever occupied the First Empire's throne (the one you need to sit on to compel their subservience - forget which it is).

The more I think about it the more I suspect Silk had a hand in all this. And yes, we won't find out who this is/was until some later writing informs us, either directly, or more likely, peripherally and in a manner which forces us to knit the answer together ourselves.

Later=after work - first day back after 10 days lying on a Caribbean beach - bleh.

OHA

[L'oric]

I just do not think it could possibly be QB and Kalam. QB is sort of busy on Lether or is going to be busy on Lether and Kalam was in the Deadhouse. In order for it to be them QB would have had to leave Lether (it took the 14th quite a long time to get from Malaz city to the Continent of Lether and then to conquer it.) QB by warren would still take a significant amount of time and then he would have to collect Kalam and go to save Laseen or rather go to the battle on the off chance they would be needed against the Crimson Guard or Urko and Toc the Edler? Oh and QB would also not have shown himself until then because...?

I would love it to be QB and Kalam and the Timeline doesn't matter....but I think it matters more to ICE than it does to SE.

I am going for the Seti Ferrule, aka Sweetgrass, for the throwing knives and you got me for the warren magics. No one else is all that powerful on the Empire side. Some unnamed Claws who when their warrens are put together were strong enough to hurt her badly? I also do not think that Vorcan's daughter is dead...I do not know if she is a shapeshifting demon or a human with a demon form that is or is not soletaken, but I think she is alive.

I do not see the warren as being the crippled gods either.

Sincerely

[foolio]

I will pose this one more time, Why would Kalam and Quick Ben want to hurt Laseens Killer? It just doesnt make any sense. If anything it seems they would want to help her or congratulate her.

They were in the middle of a Military camp, again, there would be no shortage of Warren using claws and guards/ soldiers with all varieties of weapons.

[Benji]

I think it's safe to say that even if you rape the timeline vigorously with a rusty spatula, it's impossible for it to be Kalam and QB.

Kalam is inside the Deadhouse. Granted, he's been there for a while, but if Rallick and Vorcan are anything to go on, he WILL be there for a while.

QB is in Letheras. The other side of the world. The only person who could feasibly tell him what's going on is Tayschren, but why would he?

[Cowl's Disciple]

L'oric, on Feb 19 2009, 02:23 AM, said:

I am going for the Seti Ferrule, aka Sweetgrass, for the throwing knives and you got me for the warren magics. No one else is all that powerful on the Empire side. Some unnamed Claws who when their warrens are put together were strong enough to hurt her badly? I also do not think that Vorcan's daughter is dead...I do not know if she is a shapeshifting demon or a human with a demon form that is or is not soletaken, but I think she is alive.

I do not see the warren as being the crippled gods either.

I didn't get the impression she was dead either, driven off and wounded but not dead.

[Old Hunch Arbat]

foolio, on Feb 18 2009, 09:10 AM, said:

I will pose this one more time, Why would Kalam and Quick Ben want to hurt Laseens Killer? It just doesnt make any sense. If anything it seems they would want to help her or congratulate her.

1. Analyze the ever-shifting political alliances on Wu
2. Determine whether or not you know all of the plots and subplots beyond all doubt
3. Review the author's propensity to obfuscate
4. Determine the expected "hold time" of an Azath House resident, placed there by a lying, conniving, deceitful god for reasons we are not aware of
5. Research the LD50 of Paralt Spider Venom
6. Write an essay offering an opinion (if available) regarding the likely candidate(s) for the assasin's assasination, and the reasons held by each candidate including motive and accessibility
7. Include references please for your factual assumptions, and opinions for items 4, 5, and 6

Thank you.

OHA