[theocean]

If rake had killed Daseem, wouldnt Das have looked for hood inside Dragnipur to settle his fued with him?? thus distracting Hood from helping against chaos? So Rake killing Daseem wouldnt just have not helped Rakes plans but actually aided chaos?

[BellaGrace]

I never thought that Dassem was meant to be in Dragnipure. My take was that Cotillion told Dassem about Rake's plan and that it was Rake who needed to get into the sword and that it was Dassem's job as the god of tragedy to do it - or maybe Dassem was the only one that Rake thought could survive the burden and guilt afterwards...

Although it seems against Rake's nature to expect anyone to shoulder the burden of being the one to kill him and makes me wonder why he didn't just kill himself with the sword.

[Andorion]

Dassem never wanted to go into Dragnipur. He wanted revenge on Hood. Rake wanted Hood and by extension the huge army of death in Dragnipur to fight chaos.

[Fiddler]

Edit -- I think you guys are looking at this from an outside (and slightly incorrect) perspective, you have to remember that the character of Rake was one of those epic gaming characters that Dungeon Masters and Players love to create, one who surprises his creators. The Rake vs Das faceoff wasn't some sort of super showdown at the OK corral, it was a culmination of a series of events that started with the forging of Dragnipur.

Rake wanted Mother Dark to turn and face her people, the only way he could do that was by freeing her from Dragnipur, since she basically was the embodiment of Elder Night and that was the Gateway into Kurald Galain it more or less embodied her. If it were destroyed by chaos then she could not live without it, nor could the Andii people. Breathe that one in for a second and then look at it from Rakes' point of view, he had only one path to accomplish that, and that meant destroying Dragnipur, and who could accomplish that? Brood and his hammer, but he won't do it for no good reason since it would involve freeing elder demons from millennia of torment, now put Hood and Rake inside the sword and the return of Mother Dark...

However, who can defeat Rake? Who among those select few can be given reason to do it that will defy their faculties? Go deprive a man of his vengeance upon the person who killed his child and see what happens.

Which then made it necessary for Brood to destroy the sword, since he wouldn't allow his friends soul to suffer in it. This then freed all the players inside to get back into the game, Draconus especially because now the necessary forces are in alignment for him to finish what he started when he forged Dragnipur, and that is to keep Mother Dark safe from harm, even if it's harm from her own children.

This post has been edited by Fiddler: 20 December 2014 - 03:12 AM

[Andorion]

 Fiddler, on 20 December 2014 - 03:07 AM, said:

Rake wanted Mother Dark to turn and face her people, the only way he could do that was by freeing her from Dragnipur, since she basically was the embodiment of Elder Night and that was the Gateway into Kurald Galain it more or less embodied her. If it were destroyed by chaos then she could not live without it, nor could the Andii people. Breathe that one in for a second and then look at it from Rakes' point of view, he had only one path to accomplish that, and that meant destroying Dragnipur, and who could accomplish that? Brood and his hammer, but he won't do it for no good reason since it would involve freeing elder demons from millennia of torment, now put Hood and Rake inside the sword and the return of Mother Dark... It forces him to act which is probably why he's so cranky about it...

Which then made it necessary for Brood to destroy the sword, since he wouldn't allow his friends soul to suffer in it. This then freed all the players inside to get back into the game, Draconus especially because now the necessary forces are in alignment for him to finish what he started when he forged Dragnipur, and that is to keep Mother Dark safe from harm, even if it's harm from her own children.

Agree with first part, but not second part.

To free the gate of Kurald Galain and get the attention of Mother Dark, Rake had to sacrifice his soul. Standing atop the wagon he essentially disintegrates himself. This gets the attention of Mother Dark. Apologize for the long quote but it summarizes the action and intent nicely:

Quote

Standing so tall, so fierce, almost within reach.
Atop the mountain of bodies, the moaning bridge of flesh and bone, the sordid barrier at Dark’s door, this living ward – so stupid so stupid! Standing there, eyes lifting up, soul facing down and down and downward – will she sense him? Will she turn? Will she see? Will she understand?
No to all of these things. For Kadaspala has made a god a god a god he has made a god and the knife the knife the knife—
Anomander Rake stands, and the map awakens, its power and his power, awakening.
Wandering Hold, wander no longer. Fleeing Gate, flee no more. This is what he will do. This is the sacrifice he will make, oh so worthy so noble so noble yes and clever and so very clever and who else but Anomander Rake so noble and so clever?......

.......Anomander Rake, still standing, head tilted back, arms raised, began to dissolve, shred away, as the Gate took hold of him, as it fed upon him, upon the Son of Darkness. Upon what he desired, what he willed to be.
Witnessing this, Draconus sank down to his knees.
He finally understood what was happening. He finally understood what Anomander Rake had planned, all along – this, this wondrous thing.
Staring upward, he whispered, ‘You ask my forgiveness? When you unravel what I have done, what I did so long ago? When you heal what I wounded, when you mend what I broke?’ He raised his voice to a shout. ‘Rake! There is no forgiveness you must seek – not from me, gods below, not from any of us!’
But there was no way to know if he had been heard. The man that had been Anomander Rake was scattered into the realm of Kurald Galain, on to its own long-sealed path that might – just might – lead to the very feet of Mother Dark.
Who had turned away.
‘Mother Dark,’ Draconus whispered. ‘I believe you must face him now. You must turn to your children. I believe your son insists. He demands it. Open your eyes, Mother Dark. See what he has done! For you, for the Tiste Andii – but not for himself. See! See and know what he has done!’
Darkness awakened, the pattern grasping hold of the Gate itself, and sinking, sinking down, passing beyond Dragnipur, leaving for ever the dread sword—...

.....She had halted at the very edge of an enormous altar chamber. Where a bizarre, ethereal pattern was raining down from the domed ceiling, countless linked filaments of black threads, slowly descending, even as other tendrils rose from the floor itself.
And Nimander heard her whisper, ‘The Gate. How . . . oh, my dearest son . . . oh, Anomander . . .’.....

.....Aranatha – who was no longer Aranatha – stepped past him.
But no, her feet were not even touching the floor. She rose yet higher, amidst streams of darkness that flowed down like silk, and she stared down upon the Dying God.
Who, finding himself face to face with Mother Dark – with the Elder Goddess in the flesh – quailed. Shrinking back, diminished.
She does not reach through – not any more. She is here. Mother Dark is here.
And Nimander heard her say, ‘Ah, my son . . . I accept.’
The Gate of Darkness wandered no more. Was pursued no longer. The Gate of Darkness had found a new home, in the heart of Black Coral......

......He closed his eyes then, as he felt another presence – one he had never imagined he would ever feel again. And in his mind, he spoke, ‘For you, Mother, he did this. For us, he did this. He has brought us all home. He has brought us all home.’
And she replied in his mind then, her voice rising from the depths below, from the river where he had found his strength. His strength to hold, one last time. As his Lord had asked him to. As his Lord had known he would do. She said, I understand. Come to me, then.

Now we come to Brood. Clearly breaking the sword had nothing to do with Rake's soul. Rake's soul was Kurald Galain now, merging into the gate, the gate being sent to Black Coral. This meant that Dragnipur was now obsolete. Its original puprose - to hide and protect the Gate now done with, as Draconus remarks. But Dragnipur was still an immensely powerful weapon as it could still steal souls. In the wrong hands it could be devastating. Hence the battle for possession over it with Envy and SPite and the Hounds of Light and Shadow and Pust and Kruppe and Karsa and Cutter. This is why Brood shatters it. To render it inert and valueless.

[Fiddler]

Thank you for the quote and the correction! My interpretation was somewhat different but what the heck.

Quote

The man that had been Anomander Rake was scattered into the realm of Kurald Galain, on to its own long-sealed path that might – just might – lead to the very feet of Mother Dark.

I had forgotten that part about Rake dissolving honestly. I just thought he went into Kurald Galain.

I think Brood does more or less just object to anyone but Rake having the sword, and I think he has some hope that Rake comes back out of it, I recall something mentioned in the garden scene by Baruk about the inhabitants of the sword coming back and Brood being sort of hopeful about it. Anyways, the point I was trying to make was that Das vs Rake wasn't a piece of literary machinery, or didn't feel like one to me, but one of those inevitable clashes of Ascendants that we've come to love out of SE. Replete with magic swords and the death of Death.

[Andorion]

 Fiddler, on 20 December 2014 - 03:43 AM, said:

Thank you for the quote and the correction! My interpretation was somewhat different but what the heck.

Quote

The man that had been Anomander Rake was scattered into the realm of Kurald Galain, on to its own long-sealed path that might – just might – lead to the very feet of Mother Dark.

I had forgotten that part about Rake dissolving honestly. I just thought he went into Kurald Galain.

I think Brood does more or less just object to anyone but Rake having the sword, and I think he has some hope that Rake comes back out of it, I recall something mentioned in the garden scene by Baruk about the inhabitants of the sword coming back and Brood being sort of hopeful about it. Anyways, the point I was trying to make was that Das vs Rake wasn't a piece of literary machinery, or didn't feel like one to me, but one of those inevitable clashes of Ascendants that we've come to love out of SE. Replete with magic swords and the death of Death.

Oh yeah, agree totally on the convergence. You had three powerful ascendants clashing. Dassem wants to take revenge on Hood. Rake wants to take Hood into Dragnipur. Ammanas and Cotillion are pulling strings. Other ascendants like Spite and Envy, uber-powerful forces like the Hounds of Light and Shadow and Karsa are present. Classic SE convergence.

[BellaGrace]

I still don't see why it had to be Dassem though - Rake knew he had to die. It could have been anyone that did it (like Brood or Cotillion) - it didn't need to be some big fight with Dassem. I get that Dassem wanted to get to Hood - what I don't get is why it had to be this faux fight (on Rake's side at least). Rake could have slit his own throat or asked Brood to do it for him. What was the point of forcing Dassem into a no-win situation like that (unless it had something to do with his role as god of tragedy).

It's especially pointless for Dassem to kill Rake since Hood is dead and is probably coming back out of the sword with Draconus in the next books (don't tell me if that's true or not - I'm just speculating).

[worry]

Possibilities (that don't necessarily all work congruently):
Rake committing outright suicide would have had the opposite effect on the Andii than his purpose (namely reversing their gradual downward spiral).
Getting Dassem inside the sword would have made a formidable addition to the anti-Chaos side.
Dassem was trying to get into Dragnipur and Rake was trying to counter his efforts; it was a reverse duel.
Dassem had no choice, as the power of Vengeance would not let him back down.
Rake needed powerful, trustworthy people there to ensure that Dragnipur would not fall into the hands of villains.
ST/Cots needed to knock some sense back into Dassem finally, and Rake was doing them the favor as part of the grand bargain.

[Andorion]

Somehow I don't see Rake committing suicide. I dont think it would have worked. I don't think Brood could have killed his friend. Even in a good cause. I don't think Rake would have trusted Cotillion to wield Dragnipur and then renounce its power.

Dassem comes in because Rake has to kill Hood. Dassem's quest for vengeance, propeeld by the sword Vengeance would lead inevitably to a convergence. Rake knew Dassem might attack him if he saw him as an obstacle on the path to revenge. And then Rake rigged the fight:

Quote

Traveller spoke. ‘He said you would stand in my way.’ That voice carried, strong as waves surging against a dark shore.
Samar Dev’s heart stuttered.
When Anomander Rake replied, his words were cold, solid and unyielding, ‘What else did he tell you?’
Traveller shook his head. ‘Where is he?’ he demanded. ‘I can feel – he’s close. Where is he?’
Not Cotillion. A different ‘he’ this time. The one Traveller seeks. The one he has ever sought.
‘Yes,’ said Rake. ‘Close.’
Thick, flapping sounds, drifting in from the smoky night sky. She looked up in alarm and saw Great Ravens. Landing upon roof ledges. Scores, hundreds, silent but for the beat of air beneath crooked wings. Gathering, gathering, along the arched gate and the sections of wall to either side. Landing everywhere, so long as it’s a place from which they can see.
‘Then stand aside,’ commanded Traveller.
‘I cannot.’
‘Dammit, Rake, you are not my enemy.’
The Son of Darkness tilted his head, as if receiving a compliment, an unexpected gift.
‘Rake. You have never been my enemy. You know that. Even when the Empire . . .’
‘I know, Dassem. I know.’
‘He said this would happen.’ There was dismay in that statement, and resignation.
Rake made no reply.
‘He said,’ continued Dassem, ‘that you would not yield.’
‘No, I will not yield.’
‘Please help me, Rake, help me to understand . . . why?’
‘I am not here to help you, Dassem Ultor.’ And Samar Dev heard genuine regret in that admission. The Son of Darkness closed both hands about the long grip of Dragnipur and, angling the pommel upward and to his right, slowly widened his stance. ‘If you so want Hood,’ he said, ‘come and get him.’......

.......And yet, for all the blinding speed, the glowing shower spraying out like the blood of iron, Samar Dev saw the death blow. She saw it clear. She saw its undeniable truth – and somehow, somehow, it was all wrong.
Rake wide-legged, angling the pommel high before his face with Dragnipur’s point downward – as if to echo his opening stance – and higher still, and Dassem, his free hand joining the other upon his sword’s grip, throwing his entire weight into a crossways slash – the warrior bodily lifting as if about to take to the air and close upon Rake with an embrace. And his swing met the edge of Dragnipur at a full right angle – a single moment shaping a perfect cruciform fashioned by the two weapons’ colliding, and then the power of Dassem’s blow slammed Dragnipur back—
Driving its inside edge into Anomander Rake’s forehead, and then down through his face.
His gauntleted hands sprang away from the handle, yet Dragnipur remained jammed, seeming to erupt from his head, as he toppled backward, blood streaming down to flare from the tip as the Son of Darkness crashed down on his back.
Even this impact did not dislodge Dragnipur. The sword shivered, and now there was but one song, querulous and fading in the sudden stillness.
Blood boiled, turned black. The body lying on the cobbles did not move. Anomander Rake was dead.
Dassem Ultor slowly lowered his weapon, his chest heaving.
And then he cried out, in a voice so filled with anguish that it seemed to tear a jagged hole in the night air. This unhuman scream was joined by a chorus of shrieks as the Great Ravens exploded into flight, lifting like a massive feathered veil that whirled above the street, and then began a spinning descent. Cultists flinched away and crouched against building walls, their wordless chant drowned beneath the caterwauling cacophony of this black, glistening shroud that swept down like a curtain.
Dassem staggered back, and then pitched drunkenly to one side, his sword dragging in his wake, point skirling a snake track across the cobbles. He was brought up short by a pitted wall, and he sagged against it, burying his face in the shelter of a crooked arm that seemed to be all that held him upright.
Broken. Broken. They are broken.
Oh, gods forgive them, they are broken.
Karsa Orlong shocked her then, as he twisted to one side and pointedly spat on to the street. ‘Cheated,’ he said. ‘Cheated!’
She stared at him, aghast. She did not know what he meant – but no, she did. Yes, she did. ‘Karsa, what just happened?’ Wrong. It was wrong. ‘I saw – I saw—’
‘You saw true,’ he said, baring his teeth, his gaze fixed upon that fallen body. ‘As did Traveller, and see what it has done to him.’

So two forces: Dassems Vengeance, Dassems aspect as tragedy (The Cultists) converge. He has been denied his vengeance. With a little prodding he wil unleash his wrath. And that is exactly what Rake wants. That final sword stance, so weak defensively allows Dassems strike to slam Dragnipur back into Rake. It was a rigged hit. Rake goes into Dragnipur on the wings of battle, not an ignominous suicide.

I think there is one further aspect we are missing, but that has to do with the Kharkanas trilogy. I can't speculate on that here without spoiling it for the OP.

[Fiddler]

Poor Dassem, Hood just used him and used him didn't he?

I think in some ways Dassem and Hoods' relationship, especially after the Chaining, was typical of MBotF view of Gods, that their gifts are poisoned and their hands destroy mortals.

[Andorion]

 Fiddler, on 22 December 2014 - 06:37 PM, said:

Poor Dassem, Hood just used him and used him didn't he?

I think in some ways Dassem and Hoods' relationship, especially after the Chaining, was typical of MBotF view of Gods, that their gifts are poisoned and their hands destroy mortals.

Oh yeah. Dassem was used. By everybody. Which is why I was so pleased with his character arc in OST.

[D'rek]

I don't see why folks are suggesting Dassem might have wanted to get into Dragnipur after Hood. Dassem did not know that Hood was in Dragnipur, he just sensed him nearby:

Quote

Traveller shook his head. ‘Where is he?’ he demanded. ‘I can feel – he’s close. Where is he?’

All Cotillion told Dassem was that Rake would stand in his way, he didn't tell Dassem that Hood had been Dragnipur'd. So Dassem thought Hood was just around the corner of the street or something like that, but that Rake was trying to stop him from pursuing. And so they fought, with Dassem legitimately trying to defeat Rake so that Rake would be out of his way and he could continue pursuing Hood around the street corner.

[Gorefest]

Which still leaves the question: why did Rake set him up for that instead of committing harakiri or somesuch with Dragnipur? All theorising aside, I assume SE just thought it made for better imagery and sense of symmetry to have a big stand-off between Rake and the embodiment of tragedy who wielded Rake's old sword. Unless there is a twist to Vengeance that we're not yet aware of (?) that throws up other possibilities.Like maybe Rake needed to be (indirectly) slain by Vengeance to be free of any ties to it, or whatever.

This post has been edited by Gorefest: 23 December 2014 - 04:10 PM

[D'rek]

 Gorefest, on 23 December 2014 - 04:08 PM, said:

Which still leaves the question: why did Rake set him up for that instead of committing harakiri or somesuch with Dragnipur? All theorising aside, I assume SE just thought it made for better imagery and sense of symmetry to have a big stand-off between Rake and the embodiment of tragedy who wielded Rake's old sword. Unless there is a twist to Vengeance that we're not yet aware of (?) that throws up other possibilities.Like maybe Rake needed to be (indirectly) slain by Vengeance to be free of any ties to it, or whatever.

Well, because power requires sacrifice. As Worry said, it wouldn't have made as much of a metaphysical effect if Rake had papercut his way into Dragnipur. Abyss said it better in some other thread...

[Andorion]

 D, on 23 December 2014 - 05:01 PM, said:

 Gorefest, on 23 December 2014 - 04:08 PM, said:

Which still leaves the question: why did Rake set him up for that instead of committing harakiri or somesuch with Dragnipur? All theorising aside, I assume SE just thought it made for better imagery and sense of symmetry to have a big stand-off between Rake and the embodiment of tragedy who wielded Rake's old sword. Unless there is a twist to Vengeance that we're not yet aware of (?) that throws up other possibilities.Like maybe Rake needed to be (indirectly) slain by Vengeance to be free of any ties to it, or whatever.

Well, because power requires sacrifice. As Worry said, it wouldn't have made as much of a metaphysical effect if Rake had papercut his way into Dragnipur. Abyss said it better in some other thread...

Agree with you on both counts: 1. Dassem never intended to enter Dragnipur. he just wanted Hood. 2. Sacrifice for power. Rake's entry into Dragnipur is all about the sheer raw power he brings with him.

But I am strongly leaning towards the theory that the sword Grief/Vengeance itself is very important in this juncture. Refer FoD and wait for the rest of Kharkanas. After all this is the TtH forum.....but I find that last bit of the quote very intriguing.

Quote

...Arriving with the power of a mountain torn apart in a long, deafening, crushing detonation. Argent clouds were shredded, whipped away in dark winds. The legions pressing on all sides recoiled, and the thousand closing paces so viciously won were lost in an instant. Dragons screamed. Voices erupted as if dragged out from throats – the pressure, the pain, the stunning power—
Chaos flinched, and then, slowly, began to gather itself once more.
No single force could defeat this enemy. Destruction was its own law, and even as it devoured itself it would devour everything else. Chaos, riding the road of Darkness, ever to arrive unseen, from sources unexpected, from places where one never thought to look, much less guard against.
The sword and all within it was dying, now, at last; dying.
Hood’s hand had left his shoulder, and Draconus sagged down on to his knees.
One more.
And, yes, he knew who was now among them....
....To stand in the heart of Dragnipur, to stand above the very Gate of Darkness, this was, for Anomander Rake, a most final act. Perhaps it was desperation. Or a sacrifice beyond all mortal measure.
A weapon named Vengeance, or a weapon named Grief – either way, where he had been delivered by that sword was a world of his own making. And all the choices that might have been were as dust on the bleak trail of his life.

[Jhag of spades]

I find it interesting that no one mention Cotillion and Shadowthrones conversation in the end, I get the feelling that Cots already when talking to Dassem mentioned that Rake would have to die.
(don't know how to make a quote) Cots: " I wasn't sure he'd, well, accept. Right up until the moment he..." "You know, I did offer to explain. It might have eased his conscience. But he wasn't interested."
I understand this as if Cots having told Dassem what had to be done, but without the reasons for it being mentioned. And because Dassem doesn't know the reasons he tries to talk Rake out of the fight, even though he knows that Rake would "stand in his way". If Cots indeed did tell Dassem it also explains why Dassem seem almost broken after the talk between the two of them.

This post has been edited by Jhag of spades: 24 December 2014 - 11:20 AM

[The Hust Legion]

i just always kinda thought erikson placed dash there. what better place is there for the lord of tragedy than the moment of rakes death. but also having the best swordsman ever present could be somewhat comforting to rake as there is some protection for dragnipur no doubt rake knew spite and envy were present and possibly expected the hounds of light. dassem didnt protect but rake could still think he would. ( ill never know who was the better swordsman rake or dassem)

and andorion is right rakes link to vengeance/grief seems significant especially after FoD.

[Andorion]

I think the tragedy aspect was more important than the swordsman aspect. The swordsman part was important. It would be an appropriately epic ending to Rake, and there was the chance for some protection, but there were other elements laid on: Karsa, Kruppe, Tulas Shorn,the undead Seguleh, Barathol and weirdly enough Cutter. Also Brood.

I have got a hunch about the Grief/Vengeance FoD connection, but its pure speculation so better to wait till Fall of Light.