[Andirak]

Ignoring Rake's/Dassem's swording abilities, would Rake have survived if Dassem had ended into Dragnipur? It seems to me Rake had reached his limits, Dassem's presence inside the sword (him being a god and all) would have most likely killed him.

[Nequam]

Eh, I don't think it would have killed. I mean sure all that metaphysical weight was crazy, but even with the strain it seemed to cause him after Hood entered Rake was able to bring himself about to fight Dassy. I'm sure one more god entering the thing wouldn't have offed him.

[Andirak]

That could be true. After all he killed two HoS, powerful Ascendants in their own right, and didn't seem affected by it.

Still the idea of him putting Dassem into the sword to buy a few more moments doesn't make sense. Hood and his immensely huge army were there for that purpose. There is no reason to think Rake felt he needed a few more minutes, and Dassem was the perfect candidate to provide that. Just does not compute. It seems overkill.

[Benji]

Dassem was probably the wild card in all of this. The one person who could have ruined the plan to fight off Chaos. Rake had to delay him for some time as well because Hood needed the time.

[Nequam]

Quote

That could be true. After all he killed two HoS, powerful Ascendants in their own right, and didn't seem affected by it.

Still the idea of him putting Dassem into the sword to buy a few more moments doesn't make sense. Hood and his immensely huge army were there for that purpose. There is no reason to think Rake felt he needed a few more minutes, and Dassem was the perfect candidate to provide that. Just does not compute. It seems overkill.

Oh I agree that he never planned on putting Dassem into the sword. That wouldn't make any sense...but I still can't really see the point of the fight either. Maybe its like Benji says, and Dassem might have ruined some plans or something. I think Erikson might have just tried to think of something to get these two to fight, in order please those who were begging for a confrontation between the two. If that's true... shame on Erikson. He should stick to his plans and just make everything fit and if it goes along well with the story then he could put in thing like a Rake vs. Dassem fight.

[Seguleh 1st]

dont even think that. just tell yourself that SE has a great plan we know nothing of and everything will be solved in the next book.

[Andirak]

Seguleh 1st, on Jan 23 2009, 11:49 AM, said:

dont even think that. just tell yourself that SE has a great plan we know nothing of and everything will be solved in the next book.

Yes, that's what I keep hoping for. Fervently, might I add

[Onos]

Nequam, on Jan 23 2009, 09:36 AM, said:

Quote

That could be true. After all he killed two HoS, powerful Ascendants in their own right, and didn't seem affected by it.

Still the idea of him putting Dassem into the sword to buy a few more moments doesn't make sense. Hood and his immensely huge army were there for that purpose. There is no reason to think Rake felt he needed a few more minutes, and Dassem was the perfect candidate to provide that. Just does not compute. It seems overkill.

Oh I agree that he never planned on putting Dassem into the sword. That wouldn't make any sense...but I still can't really see the point of the fight either. Maybe its like Benji says, and Dassem might have ruined some plans or something. I think Erikson might have just tried to think of something to get these two to fight, in order please those who were begging for a confrontation between the two. If that's true... shame on Erikson. He should stick to his plans and just make everything fit and if it goes along well with the story then he could put in thing like a Rake vs. Dassem fight.

Perhaps Dassem needed to be 'broken' for some reason. Either for his own good to stop his obsession, perhaps it was part of the deal for Hood so that Dassem gets off his case. Or ST wants him broken so he can re use him. "Poor Dassem... let old friend ST give you a hug... here's a good boy... yes, cry and let it all out... everything is going to be fine". Then WHAM ST convinces Dassem he needs to fight X or Y. I am starting to view Dassem as an Icarium without the friendly guardian to look out for him. Who wouldnt want to get in and have Dassem knock off some bad people for you? So for the moment i will assume the fight was for a greater purpose. (even though it was super cool for the sake of being cool)

[Kalahinen]

I think you actually have a point there, Onos. It was more like a shock treatment to Dassem. Rake was going to die anyway.

[Urko Schmurko]

As I see it, there has to be more to the story but it hasn't come out yet. There are too many loose ends with Rake succumbing the way he did. ST involvement, remembering that ST was once Kellanved, Emporer of Malzia and at war with Rake, Brood...etc.

It was ST (thru Cotillion) who directed to Traveller to the location of Rake.

Last, just my own feeling, but I always placed Dassem at the same sword skill level as the Seguleah First or Second. Rake made it as far as 7th. I don't think Rake could have defeated Traveller, not the way the sword (Grief/Vengence) was introduced back in HoC and combined with Traveller's skills. remember, the sword was described by Andarist as being invincible in the hands of a wielder who's had the purity of character to hold it.

Rake realized he was unable hold off Traveller, throwing the fight. Better he himself enter Dragnipur rather than dying by a thrust from Grief. It could fit and still holds up as a theory, I'll keep this open as a viable possible story line cause I'm not convinced that Rake had this all planned out well before Traveller ever arrived.

I'm pretty sure explanations will come out in later books.

[Seguleh 1st]

Urko, rake had to stop fighting after defeating the 7th because he had fought his way through many other seguleh before, and he was simply exhausted. and to place, just by hearing of him, dassem on one stance with the top seguleh is something to be discussed in the best swordsman thread.

Seg 1st, should know

[Urko Schmurko]

Seguleh 1st, on Jan 28 2009, 12:07 PM, said:

Urko, rake had to stop fighting after defeating the 7th because he had fought his way through many other seguleh before, and he was simply exhausted. and to place, just by hearing of him, dassem on one stance with the top seguleh is something to be discussed in the best swordsman thread.

Seg 1st, should know

Acknowledged, but I still think the theory may be proved right in subsequent books, at least to a degree. I don't have a problem with placing Dassem on par with the top Seguleh based on how the characters have so far developed, but the discussion is left for the "who's the better swordsman thread".

[Andirak]

Urko Schmurko, on Jan 28 2009, 02:01 PM, said:

As I see it, there has to be more to the story but it hasn't come out yet. There are too many loose ends with Rake succumbing the way he did. ST involvement, remembering that ST was once Kellanved, Emporer of Malzia and at war with Rake, Brood...etc.

I believe there is more as well, perhaps concerning Dassem.

Quote

It was ST (thru Cotillion) who directed to Traveller to the location of Rake.

I am not so sure.
Dassem felt Hood's nascent materialization, and grabbed the chance to kill him. He just had to follow what his senses told him.
And Hood knew Dassem wanted to kill him, so they all should have been aware he'd be coming, and planned in accordance.

Quote

Last, just my own feeling, but I always placed Dassem at the same sword skill level as the Seguleah First or Second. Rake made it as far as 7th. I don't think Rake could have defeated Traveller, not the way the sword (Grief/Vengence) was introduced back in HoC and combined with Traveller's skills. remember, the sword was described by Andarist as being invincible in the hands of a wielder who's had the purity of character to hold it.

Rake realized he was unable hold off Traveller, throwing the fight. Better he himself enter Dragnipur rather than dying by a thrust from Grief. It could fit and still holds up as a theory, I'll keep this open as a viable possible story line cause I'm not convinced that Rake had this all planned out well before Traveller ever arrived.

Yes, it could hold as a theory... if only there was a reason why Rake stood in Dassem's way.
I am yet to see any evidence that Dassem was needed inside Dragnipur, and, as Rake realized that he was not up to the task, instead decided to get in there in a hurry.

That or another reason I am not seeing.

[Urko Schmurko]

Andirak, on Jan 28 2009, 06:06 PM, said:

Urko Schmurko, on Jan 28 2009, 02:01 PM, said:

As I see it, there has to be more to the story but it hasn't come out yet. There are too many loose ends with Rake succumbing the way he did. ST involvement, remembering that ST was once Kellanved, Emporer of Malzia and at war with Rake, Brood...etc.

I believe there is more as well, perhaps concerning Dassem.

Quote

It was ST (thru Cotillion) who directed to Traveller to the location of Rake.

I am not so sure.
Dassem felt Hood's nascent materialization, and grabbed the chance to kill him. He just had to follow what his senses told him.
And Hood knew Dassem wanted to kill him, so they all should have been aware he'd be coming, and planned in accordance.

Quote

Last, just my own feeling, but I always placed Dassem at the same sword skill level as the Seguleah First or Second. Rake made it as far as 7th. I don't think Rake could have defeated Traveller, not the way the sword (Grief/Vengence) was introduced back in HoC and combined with Traveller's skills. remember, the sword was described by Andarist as being invincible in the hands of a wielder who's had the purity of character to hold it.

Rake realized he was unable hold off Traveller, throwing the fight. Better he himself enter Dragnipur rather than dying by a thrust from Grief. It could fit and still holds up as a theory, I'll keep this open as a viable possible story line cause I'm not convinced that Rake had this all planned out well before Traveller ever arrived.

Yes, it could hold as a theory... if only there was a reason why Rake stood in Dassem's way.
I am yet to see any evidence that Dassem was needed inside Dragnipur, and, as Rake realized that he was not up to the task, instead decided to get in there in a hurry.

That or another reason I am not seeing.

I appreciate that some others can see the sense in the theory, but it is only a theory, not to lose sight of that. As the story develops, more info will come to prove or disprove whether there was a plan and what the contents of the plan are/were. You'd have to believe that Shadowthrone is a schemeing,calculating, untrustworthy,and generally conniving sort of god to think he may have set Rake and/or Hood up. I think that's why he sent Pust for Dragnipur?

[Vaddon Ra]

So how about... Dassem is on his quest to find hood and pimp stomp him... Cottilion tells him that honorable Andiian dragon lord has decapitated hood in an effort to break unbreakable cursed sword and make all the bad things in their culture new and sunshiney again... This of course means two things... 1: Rake has stolen His vengeance from Dassen, ARGHEMORAGEARGH!!! but he continues on... why? Well, he's honorable, he wont just kill himself... also he's a god, despite having reneged on a lot of his godhood he is a god and just offing yourself hasn't worked before and, well, currently killing oneself wouldn't lead you to Hood's feet where he can bite them off but in fact just into a realm of bleh... So, thinks Dassem... Perhaps if I'm gonna go out, I can just take dragnipur and cut myself with it... perhaps if I get into the sword I can punch Hood to his second death and avenge my daughter... Maybe when Dassem fought Rake he didn't want to because actually he finds Rake honorable and would have like him had they never been on the wrong side, he doesn't want to kill Rake he wants Rake to kill him as this is now the only way to get to Hood.

Ok maybe not but I just wondered whether he was gonna ask Rake where Hood is and say, "well...er...can I Hari Kari myself and you be my second to chopchop?" but Rake would never allow that as 1: he's not despicable enough to send a man filled with tragedy into a sword to be used as yet another pawn and 2: Erikson needed a badass fanboy fight scene..... I'm all out.

Dassem was broken when he killed Rake, perhaps cos he realised his rage had lead to an ultimately futile end to his quest, his daughter still not being returned and the death of someone who really didn't deserve it... also he got played... which meant that one more, alas ONCE MORE, he had been used as a pawn in a scheme made by ascendants even though he is not the victim in this sense, only unto himself.

Also... did Hood take Dassems daughter like, take her for leverage... or did her dying from disease or an accident or somesuch mean that in Dassem's eyes Hood was responsible as the personification of death as an ideal unto itself?

Also... perhaps in Dassems futile quest for Hood we see a second layer of cyclical tragedy to Mirror Hood's own destined failure to kill Death.. but hey, It's all fun to read

[DaddyDraconus]

Andirak, on 20 January 2009 - 06:07 PM, said:

This is not a R/D is better than D/R.

I am having a discussion on another forum, and here is that other person's interpretation:

That Rake initially wanted to send Dassem (Dessembrae) inside Dragnipur to fight chaos, until Brood arrived to take care of the sword. The poster doesn't mention how Rake would get inside there, but suggest that maybe Rake would kill himself or maybe Brood could do it. The rationale being, Rake wouldn't fight Dassem unless he wanted to kill him. So, into the fight, Rake realized he was outclassed, and decided to salvage something, and got himself killed by his own sword. Basically, plan A was to kill Dassem, failing that, switch to plan B, Rake himself going.

My interpretation:

Plan A: Rake himself getting inside there, he didn't need/want to kill Dassem. Hood was already there to delay chaos, there was no need to send another god (Dassem) there.
Plan B: None.

Did I miss something? It would be like the millionth time, but hey, odds gotta turn someday.

My ultimate issue with this theory would be what reason would Rake have to want to kill Dassem. I mean I get the logical reason of having Dassem fight chaos, but I mean for the act of murder. Rake has be shown to be an ultimately just charecter who could be cruel but did not take life for the sake of ambition. I think murdering Dassem for the purpose of furthering Rake's own plan would have been against his charecter and against his moral code. He wouldn't harm someone else for his own benefit

[worry]

I'm not sure he wanted to kill Dassem, but if you want a motive it would be to include one more Ascendant -- this one a master swordsman/combatant -- within Dragnipur to combat Chaos. Thinking of it as "furthering Rake's own plan" -- like as a matter of Rake's ego or personal ambition -- downplays the vast urgency of what was going on inside Dragnipur.

[Gorefest]

Vaddon Ra, on 12 August 2014 - 06:17 PM, said:

So how about... Dassem is on his quest to find hood and pimp stomp him... Cottilion tells him that honorable Andiian dragon lord has decapitated hood in an effort to break unbreakable cursed sword and make all the bad things in their culture new and sunshiney again...

As your theory seems to hinge on Dassem knowing that Hood is dead and intending to extact revenge on his killer for denying him his revenge, I'm pretty sure that SE himself already stated in an interview that when Dassem crossed blades with Rake, he did not know that the decapitated corpse behind him was Hood. So although it sounds nifty, if we have to take SE's word for it, it doesn't fly.

[blackzoid]

Gorefest, on 20 October 2014 - 01:20 PM, said:

As your theory seems to hinge on Dassem knowing that Hood is dead and intending to extact revenge on his killer for denying him his revenge, I'm pretty sure that SE himself already stated in an interview that when Dassem crossed blades with Rake, he did not know that the decapitated corpse behind him was Hood. So although it sounds nifty, if we have to take SE's word for it, it doesn't fly.

There are so many what-ifs and problems I have with the motivations of both Dassem and Rake in the duel. Which I have brought up with regards to SE before, in the Tor Reread. But I'll just say this in regards to your point.....Hood's body is not mentioned anymore after Rake kills Hood. His body,IMO, has disappeared when Dassem shows up. Because I dont think Dassem could fail to spot the dead Jaghut (in a hoodie!) when he comes up and also, given that he was the previous Knight of Death, I doubt he didnt know that Hood was a Jaghut (Ya I know Gethol didnt know, but Knight is a higher rank then Herarld so I'm going with Dassem knowing). Unless the body was still there and Dassem didnt see it. But after making such a big deal of Rake and Hood looking like mirror images in the last chapter, I really cant see how the body could have been ignored by Dassem.

Now maybe, maybe that corpse that the Hound of Shadow was eating was Hoods and so that cleared the evidence. Would have been nice if that was more explicit though.

This post has been edited by blackzoid: 21 October 2014 - 10:09 AM

[DaddyDraconus]

blackzoid, on 21 October 2014 - 10:08 AM, said:

Gorefest, on 20 October 2014 - 01:20 PM, said:

As your theory seems to hinge on Dassem knowing that Hood is dead and intending to extact revenge on his killer for denying him his revenge, I'm pretty sure that SE himself already stated in an interview that when Dassem crossed blades with Rake, he did not know that the decapitated corpse behind him was Hood. So although it sounds nifty, if we have to take SE's word for it, it doesn't fly.

There are so many what-ifs and problems I have with the motivations of both Dassem and Rake in the duel. Which I have brought up with regards to SE before, in the Tor Reread. But I'll just say this in regards to your point.....Hood's body is not mentioned anymore after Rake kills Hood. His body,IMO, has disappeared when Dassem shows up. Because I dont think Dassem could fail to spot the dead Jaghut (in a hoodie!) when he comes up and also, given that he was the previous Knight of Death, I doubt he didnt know that Hood was a Jaghut (Ya I know Gethol didnt know, but Knight is a higher rank then Herarld so I'm going with Dassem knowing). Unless the body was still there and Dassem didnt see it. But after making such a big deal of Rake and Hood looking like mirror images in the last chapter, I really cant see how the body could have been ignored by Dassem.

Now maybe, maybe that corpse that the Hound of Shadow was eating was Hoods and so that cleared the evidence. Would have been nice if that was more explicit though.

I think there has been reference in the past of when Rake slayed with Dragnipur that ethereal chains then came from the sword shackling the slain and dragging them into the sword's warren. Now that may just be thier soul or their whole body. Of course that leave a question to why Anomander's body remained, but then again he was still the wielder of Dragipur even in death.
To the orginal point during the fight when Rake is killed, I recall both Samar and Karsa being very upset that the final blow was "wrong" in that it was Rake allowing it and Karsa in particular feeling that such an end cheated Dassem of honorably winning. In my mind I guess I think of it as Anomander knew he needed to be the one who died by Dragnipur but either by prohibition of the swords sorcery or by his own code he could not kill himself by his own hand, so engineering the fight and by taking the action of allowing a killing blow or fighting to the point of it being inevitable he then let nature and aspect take its course, After all Dassem is ultimately bound to tragedy.