[Seguleh 1st]

anyway, if this is true, and i think it a most plausible explanation, we would have another possible undead dragon flying around. though the imass are on assail, the probability that one dragon is on genabackis is much higher when we have two possibilities instead of one.

[Urizen]

Ain't_It_Just_, on Jan 26 2009, 10:45 AM, said:

But doesn't this mean Olar Shayn was a draconic Soletaken?

Probably not as the Olar Shayn that briefly appears in HoC (before getting destroyed by the faux osric demon) is a "regular" T'lan Imass warrior/hunter.

[Abyss]

Puck, on Jan 20 2009, 05:26 PM, said:

Urizen, on Jan 20 2009, 10:00 PM, said:

Can we be certain that the undead dragon talking to Kallor actually is Tulas? don't Kallor call the undead Dragon Eleint rather than Soletaken or Soletaken Eleint.

Yes, we can. The dragon encountering Kallor is described really really similar to the one encountering Karsa and companions.. It's not like a hundred undead dragons were flying around above Genabackis in TtH. Kallor meets an undead dragon. The following night [I think] there is an undead dragon landing near Karsa's camp fire. The dragon then veers and introduces itself as Tulas Shorn, and looks quite undead.

And I still believe that Tulas died during the Jaghut vs. Death war. There's no evidence otherwise..

There's no evidence one way or the other.
For that matter, the undead dragon that chats with Kallor, whether it's Shorn or not, discussed the Jaghut v Death war. It doesn't, state, iirc, that it DIED during that war. (I could be wrong about that, i don't have the text handy.)

Urizen, on Jan 20 2009, 05:53 PM, said:

Puck, on Jan 20 2009, 11:26 PM, said:

Urizen, on Jan 20 2009, 10:00 PM, said:

Can we be certain that the undead dragon talking to Kallor actually is Tulas? don't Kallor call the undead Dragon Eleint rather than Soletaken or Soletaken Eleint.

Yes, we can. The dragon encountering Kallor is described really really similar to the one encountering Karsa and companions.. It's not like a hundred undead dragons were flying around above Genabackis in TtH. Kallor meets an undead dragon. The following night [I think] there is an undead dragon landing near Karsa's camp fire. The dragon then veers and introduces itself as Tulas Shorn, and looks quite undead.
...

Ok perhaps, but aren't there two undead dragons that breaks out of the Barrows in Hood's realm?

Also, what about Kallor and his thoughts that the undead dragon allied itself with the CG? mistake by Kallor or what?
Tulas Shorn in his actions do not come off as pro Crippled God, nor does his thoughts or his words show any Crippled God leanings. For exemple, why did he merely nab three Hounds of Light and fly off with them? If he had been on Team Crippled God you'd think he would have grabbed Rake's corpse (with Dragnnipur) and flown off to whatever hole the CG is currently hiding in, instantly elevating himself to most favored disciple.

Gruntle and the TTH mage definitely see at least TWO barrows burst. ONE dragon definitely escapes with them when they leave Hood's warren.

Now, of course, there is nothing stopping Hood was permitting another dragon to leave his warren in order to fulfill a task... look at what he did with Cartographer just to ensure the TTG were around to give Toc a path to follow.

Bauchelain the Evil, on Jan 25 2009, 11:10 AM, said:

But it can't be Ethil. Olar Ethil is on Assail with the rest of the T'lann Imass and Silverfox. Plus the Unbound are the only T'lann Imass that have allied with the CG and are for this hunted by the others

Negative. The three Tlan Imass that end up fighting Sukul in RG (two Soletaken Bonecasters and a warrior) were NOT unbound but were sent by the CG to secure the Refugium.

As for Olar Shayn, yes, if we follow the name logic he should be draconic, but there's still wiggle room there per Cougar's post. In any event, Olar Ethil is described by Kulp as being a prehistoric dragon, different from the usual kind. The undead eleint that chats with Kallor isn't described that way.



- Abyss, draconic before he's had a coffee.

[Cougar]

I don't think there is any dispute if you look at that simple fact I illustrated earlier, they can't be the same dragon and it isn't Olar Ethil, why would she have taken part in the Jaghut war on death as an Imass?

I still like the idea that Tulas was offed by Scabandari, no evidence but since we know the following:

He is Edur, but was not the leader at the time of the invasion

we know Scabandari offed his edur rivals.

He is listed by Endest when he thinks of the powerful Tiste Edur (including Scabandari)

He once ruled Emurlahn and was the first master of the hounds (or at least believes he was)

it doesn't seem too far fetched.

[D'rek]

Abyss, on Jan 27 2009, 10:21 AM, said:

Negative. The three Tlan Imass that end up fighting Sukul in RG (two Soletaken Bonecasters and a warrior) were NOT unbound but were sent by the CG to secure the Refugium.

I want a quote of this, if ya please. While I remember this being suspected by a character at one point, I do not recall it's confirmation...

Cougar, on Jan 27 2009, 11:05 AM, said:

I don't think there is any dispute if you look at that simple fact I illustrated earlier, they can't be the same dragon and it isn't Olar Ethil, why would she have taken part in the Jaghut war on death as an Imass?

Well Olar Ethil certainly is quite involved in a number of worldly affairs. For example, she came back to Seven Cities to defend the gate at the Path of Hands in DG. She might be wise and powerful enough to see past the usual anti-Jaghut prejudices, and it all depends on when this war was, after all.

Still, I don't think it's her either...

[Grief]

I doubt its olar ethil.
However, im not sure of the timeline here. After all, this was previous to the Imass war on the jaghut.

[Bauchelain the Evil]

You know I can't believe I haven't thought of this before. It can't be Ethil simply because The Imass weren't there at the time.
Although I think someone on the forum have said that maybe Olar Ethil is an elementary force(Elder God) that has taken the guise of a Imass.

[Grief]

Yeah, I cant remember where from but I think olar is old, probably more so than the imass.
Particularly if the sister of tiam thing is literally true, though I forget who says/thinks it.

[Aptorian]

I think the twin to tiam reference refers to her size, not her heritage.

[Abyss]

D'rek, on Jan 27 2009, 11:54 AM, said:

Abyss, on Jan 27 2009, 10:21 AM, said:

Negative. The three Tlan Imass that end up fighting Sukul in RG (two Soletaken Bonecasters and a warrior) were NOT unbound but were sent by the CG to secure the Refugium.

I want a quote of this, if ya please. While I remember this being suspected by a character at one point, I do not recall it's confirmation...

...

No quote handy but check their names.
There was an Unbound, Imroth iirc, who encounters ghost Hedge and he 'splodes her on the way into the Refugium, but these three are not amongst the named Unbound.

As for Olar Ethil, she's totally not involved in any of the events discussed, imnsho.


- Abyss, caveman.

[D'rek]

Abyss, on Jan 27 2009, 03:00 PM, said:

No quote handy but check their names.
There was an Unbound, Imroth iirc, who encounters ghost Hedge and he 'splodes her on the way into the Refugium, but these three are not amongst the named Unbound.

Precisely. They're definitely not from the Seven of the Dead Fires (that name needs to be used more often), but I was disputing more along the lines of whether they actually were working for the CG, or if that was just a suspicion presented by someone like Quick or Onrack...

After all, it would seem a tad weird that Emroth was making this big journey to the gates when the other three were already there...

Bauchelain the Evil said:

You know I can't believe I haven't thought of this before. It can't be Ethil simply because The Imass weren't there at the time.
Although I think someone on the forum have said that maybe Olar Ethil is an elementary force(Elder God) that has taken the guise of a Imass.

I've never seen any solid evidence for this, though. I think this is an old theory that rears its head every now and then and is only based on her name showing up with the EGs in Baruk's Draconean Tree (1st version), which has errors and confusion aplenty anyways. The twin to Tiam bit probably means that she is around the same size as Tiam and not some weird deformed or lessened dragon. I like to think that this means she actually journeyed to Tiam and drank the blood herself instead of, say, getting some freaky with K'rul at the first Chaining after-party...

This post has been edited by D'rek: 27 January 2009 - 09:02 PM

[Grief]

Aye, Rake etc all did that. The first soletaken eleint.
Somewhere mentions that she is like a champion, when there is talk of powerful champions. Its BH, cots talk with the dragons.
The andii have rake, the liosan osserc, the imass Olar ethil...

[Ain't_It_Just_]

Would Olar have taken of Tiam's blood before or after the ritual?

[Grief]

Tiam was slain by Rake priot to the ritual, by my reckoning, so she is likely an ascendant in her own right.

[Grief]

Though you could get tiams blood by killing others who had drunk it.
Or other eleint may do the trick.

[Ain't_It_Just_]

Probably, though I doubt they'd be as powerful Soletakens as Rake or Osserc.

[D'rek]

Grief, on Jan 27 2009, 06:49 PM, said:

Tiam was slain by Rake priot to the ritual, by my reckoning, so she is likely an ascendant in her own right.

Grief, on Jan 27 2009, 06:50 PM, said:

Though you could get tiams blood by killing others who had drunk it.
Or other eleint may do the trick.

Well all those references to her thousand deaths and all that likely indicate that she can die and come back many times. Though some, like Osserc, seem to have sheboinged her, 'twould seem that the 'traditional' way of becoming a soletaken-eleint is to stab her and drink her blood (Osserc might have done both for all we know).

The alternative way, of course, is to have a soletaken-eleint parent, a-la Rud Elalle, though this might not work every time...

And of course, FW's readings in MT proclaimed that Tiam was dead with some finality for once, but the veracity of this has not been proved...

This post has been edited by D'rek: 28 January 2009 - 12:51 PM

[Grief]

Seen her flying around recently

Also dont we see MD having a go at Rake for killing her in a way that was somehow worse than other ways it had been done previously or something

[Benji]

D'rek, on Jan 28 2009, 12:50 PM, said:

...some, like Osserc, seem to have sheboinged her, 'twould seem that the 'traditional' way of becoming a soletaken-eleint is to stab her and drink her blood (Osserc might have done both for all we know)...

Never would have placed Osserc as someone who's into S&M

[Andirak]

One of these days I would like to know why dear Tiamatha lets herself be treated like that. Does she get any perks from dying? Like come back stronger or something?
Maybe it's a fetish? Fewer things make less sense than she does

To me anyway.