[Puck]

Urizen, on Jan 20 2009, 10:00 PM, said:

Can we be certain that the undead dragon talking to Kallor actually is Tulas? don't Kallor call the undead Dragon Eleint rather than Soletaken or Soletaken Eleint.

Yes, we can. The dragon encountering Kallor is described really really similar to the one encountering Karsa and companions.. It's not like a hundred undead dragons were flying around above Genabackis in TtH. Kallor meets an undead dragon. The following night [I think] there is an undead dragon landing near Karsa's camp fire. The dragon then veers and introduces itself as Tulas Shorn, and looks quite undead.

And I still believe that Tulas died during the Jaghut vs. Death war. There's no evidence otherwise..

[Urizen]

Puck, on Jan 20 2009, 11:26 PM, said:

Urizen, on Jan 20 2009, 10:00 PM, said:

Can we be certain that the undead dragon talking to Kallor actually is Tulas? don't Kallor call the undead Dragon Eleint rather than Soletaken or Soletaken Eleint.

Yes, we can. The dragon encountering Kallor is described really really similar to the one encountering Karsa and companions.. It's not like a hundred undead dragons were flying around above Genabackis in TtH. Kallor meets an undead dragon. The following night [I think] there is an undead dragon landing near Karsa's camp fire. The dragon then veers and introduces itself as Tulas Shorn, and looks quite undead.

And I still believe that Tulas died during the Jaghut vs. Death war. There's no evidence otherwise..

Ok perhaps, but aren't there two undead dragons that breaks out of the Barrows in Hood's realm?

Also, what about Kallor and his thoughts that the undead dragon allied itself with the CG? mistake by Kallor or what?
Tulas Shorn in his actions do not come off as pro Crippled God, nor does his thoughts or his words show any Crippled God leanings. For exemple, why did he merely nab three Hounds of Light and fly off with them? If he had been on Team Crippled God you'd think he would have grabbed Rake's corpse (with Dragnnipur) and flown off to whatever hole the CG is currently hiding in, instantly elevating himself to most favored disciple.

This post has been edited by Urizen: 20 January 2009 - 10:53 PM

[Puck]

Urizen, on Jan 20 2009, 11:53 PM, said:

Ok perhaps, but aren't there two undead dragons that breaks out of the Barrows in Hood's realm?

Also, what about Kallor and his thoughts that the undead dragon allied itself with the CG? mistake by Kallor or what?

Nope, just one. There were more dragons beginning to break out of their 'barrows' but only one escaped.

And, yes, probably just a mistake by Kallor. It's not like he would be the first character in SE's book to judge by looks or have a false first impression.

[D'rek]

Kallor didn't really know about the convergence coming to Darujhistan until much later when he was nearer. As far as he knew, the only thing awaiting him in Darujhistan was a chance at the Throne of HoC. Since he (correctly) deduced that Tulas Shorn was heading north and quite possibly towards Darujhistan, he figured Tulas was going for the Throne. (As it is, clearly Tulas did some sight-seeing on the way as he can fly a hundred leagues in a day and yet was one of the last to arrive on the scene...)


And what does all this stuff about gates have to do with the souls of dead Tistes? I think the references to the gates (and the one about stepping out of Darkness by Korlat) are about *alive* Tiste coming into the Malaziworld, not the souls of dead Tistes going back to Kurald ____s...

[Ain't_It_Just_]

That sounds more like it, D'rek...not dead Tiste.

Anyone think that the CG willmake Tulas an offer? And btw...what's his first name? Something Tulas Shorn. I don't remember.

[Jamber Bole]

I forgot, what were Tulas reasons for delaying Karsa and Dassem? They would have gotten earlier to Darujhistan if he hadn't stolen their horses ...

[Benji]

Probably because Hood asked him to. If Dassem had arrived too early then the whole plan could have been fried.

[Abyss]

Arguably, Tulas was working for Hood to ensure Traveller arrived at the right time. (And because he liked horsies.)

Which sort of contradicts the fact that he seems to tell Kallor he's looking for a new master in the CG.

I 'struggled' with this back when i first read thru TtH - we definitely see more than one undead dragon bust out of a hill in Hood's warren with Gruntle. We definitely see only one dragon emerge over the TTG.

But the dragon that speaks to Kallor seems... different... than the way Shorn is seen later speaking with Karsa and co and ST/Cot.

Anyrate, the most logical conclusion is that it's all Tulas all the time, but there is a (forgive the pun) shadow of doubt.


- Abyss, couldn't resist.

[Urizen]

Abyss, on Jan 22 2009, 08:48 PM, said:

Arguably, Tulas was working for Hood to ensure Traveller arrived at the right time. (And because he liked horsies.)

Which sort of contradicts the fact that he seems to tell Kallor he's looking for a new master in the CG.

I 'struggled' with this back when i first read thru TtH - we definitely see more than one undead dragon bust out of a hill in Hood's warren with Gruntle. We definitely see only one dragon emerge over the TTG.

But the dragon that speaks to Kallor seems... different... than the way Shorn is seen later speaking with Karsa and co and ST/Cot.

Anyrate, the most logical conclusion is that it's all Tulas all the time, but there is a (forgive the pun) shadow of doubt.


- Abyss, couldn't resist.

I agree there is some doubts as Tulas/undead Dragon's actions. The more I re-read those parts the more I wonder what made Kalllor think the undragon wanted to join with the CG? To me the undragon's speech and story feelt like an attempt to turn Kallor from the "darkside" more than anything else.

But what I know? maybe he/it gave Kallor the secret Crippled God handshake off stage..

[Benji]

I think that Hood would have asked it as part of a deal. Something along the lines of 'Delay Dassem and you get your freedom.' Probably not that black and white, but something along those lines anyway. When he was searching for Dassem, he probably saw Kallor first and said 'Hang on a minute... I can get something good out of this.' He was talking differently because with Dassem, he was trying to find ways to stall, but with Kallor it was all business.

[Abyss]

did the chat with Kallor take place BEFORE the chat with Dassem?

Maybe Shorn wasn't quite himself yet.

- Abyss, figures a few million years dead can do that....

[D'rek]

Yes, it was. Chatting with Kallor was the first we see of Tulas (presumably) following the TTG people seeing him fly away.

[Ain't_It_Just_]

Got his name-Kagamandra Tulas Shorn.

What I can't believe is that Edur (assuming Kallor's undead dragon was Tulas Shorn) fought alongside the Jaghut as allies. I don't think they've ever worked together at all. And going by what he said, I'd say there may have been some Andii and Liosan there as well.

[Spinnock Durav]

I think k-Kagamandra Tulas Shorn -is the Edur equivalent of Osserc and Anomander.
Sacbandarri Bloodeye is not the first Edur to claim the thone of Shadow and he began his deceit and deception of Silchas Ruin after he claimed the throne.
I think Tulas Shorn was roaming the land along with the Elder Gods and as stated met his demise in the war against Hood with the Jaghut's. I think he is certainly the most interesting player to raise his head in TTH.
His mission was certainly to delay Dassem from entering Darujhistan until Hood had met with Anomander - In return for what? I am sure we'll see.

[Ain't_It_Just_]

In return for a master, I'll bet. Never seen someone so desperate to be taken on...guess the global economic crisis spreads even in the MbotF.

[Cougar]

Ain't_It_Just_, on Jan 24 2009, 06:58 AM, said:

Got his name-Kagamandra Tulas Shorn.

What I can't believe is that Edur (assuming Kallor's undead dragon was Tulas Shorn) fought alongside the Jaghut as allies. I don't think they've ever worked together at all. And going by what he said, I'd say there may have been some Andii and Liosan there as well.

Tulas Shorn and the Undead Dragon are not the same; after about an hour of key word searching the text with Malaclypse a few months ago I remembered why I was so sure of this:

Tulas Shorn says he can not remember how he died.

The unded Dragon says to Kallor that it remembers it's death, I'd say that was pretty conclusive.

[Ain't_It_Just_]

Well well well....any idea what he was then?

[Benji]

We know of at least one other active undead dragon. Isn't one of T'lan Imass bonecasters a Soletaken Eleint? Can't remember the name off the top of my head... But we also know that some T'lan seek to join the CG (i.e. the one that Hedge meets and blows up)

[Grief]

Olar ethil-Undead twin of tiam...

[Bauchelain the Evil]

But it can't be Ethil. Olar Ethil is on Assail with the rest of the T'lann Imass and Silverfox. Plus the Unbound are the only T'lann Imass that have allied with the CG and are for this hunted by the others