[bebbe]

Ok, so im not sure i got this right, but i tought that the soul of a Tiste Edur/Andii when killed returned to the world which they orginally came from.

Am i misstaken?? If not, how come that Tulas Shorn when killed ended up in Hoods realm?

It would have been far more likely if he had ended up trapped in shadow realm like so many other former masters of that warren.

[amphibian]

bebbe, on Jan 19 2009, 11:31 AM, said:

Ok, so im not sure i got this right, but i tought that the soul of a Tiste Edur/Andii when killed returned to the world which they orginally came from.

Am i misstaken?? If not, how come that Tulas Shorn when killed ended up in Hoods realm?

It would have been far more likely if he had ended up trapped in shadow realm like so many other former masters of that warren.

The Andii souls seem to hover where they die or go nowhere. When Kedeviss dies, Nimander's thoughts say essentially that while he ponders leaving behind her corpse. But Anomander's sacrifice reopened the connection with Mother Dark and presumably now all the souls left hovering over the milennia will go back into Darkness.

I don't know if I've ever seen a discussion of Edur souls. It's possible that they hover too or become shadow ghosts (in the blackwood or something). Tulas Shorn was one of the most interesting characters in Toll the Hounds and one of the most enigmatic.

I speculate that he died while fighting with the Jaghut armies against Death itself, was gathered by the god of death at the time and was thus interred within Hood's at-the-time-future or current realm.

[bebbe]

Trull: "Then were are our ancesors?"
"Where?" Rhulad's voice was a rasp. "Where? Nowhere, brother. They are nowhere. Our souls flee our bodies, flee this world for we do not belong here. We have never belonged here."

[amphibian]

bebbe, on Jan 19 2009, 12:20 PM, said:

Trull: "Then were are our ancesors?"
"Where?" Rhulad's voice was a rasp. "Where? Nowhere, brother. They are nowhere. Our souls flee our bodies, flee this world for we do not belong here. We have never belonged here."

That's an amazing quote, but I'm still wary of placing full weight of authority on Rhulad. He's only half-insane and being manipulated by the Crippled God.

We've had characters be wrong, lie or deceive before in the books (Jhenna from Night of Knives comes to mind).

[Seguleh 1st]

but still, impressive quote-fu, bebbe.

[Abyss]

bebbe, on Jan 19 2009, 11:31 AM, said:

Ok, so im not sure i got this right, but i tought that the soul of a Tiste Edur/Andii when killed returned to the world which they orginally came from.

Am i misstaken?? If not, how come that Tulas Shorn when killed ended up in Hoods realm?

It would have been far more likely if he had ended up trapped in shadow realm like so many other former masters of that warren.

Keep in mind Tulas Shorn was
a) Draconic soletaken and clearly no ordinary edur (what with having invented the Hounds of Shadow and all).

Plus Kurald Emurlahn was shattered, Scabby Bloodeye was never really a god, Mommy D was cut off, and Father Light is a dick. So where IS a dead draconic edur's soul supposed to end up?

And the answer is nowhere and anywhere.

Factor in that draconic soletaken souls have a considerable resilience and a certain value, and it's not hard to believe Hood picked him up immediately post mortem and stuck him under that hill.

The fact that there were SEVERAL such hills, each containing a dead (but spry!) dragon, suggests this wasn't any random action Hood was taken, but a specific plan to have these souls handy, assuming way back when Shorn kicked Hood wasn't already planning the Dragnipur campaign (probably not, but you never know when a draconic souls may come in handy...).


- Abyss, has socks like that...

[D'rek]

amphibian, on Jan 19 2009, 12:00 PM, said:

The Andii souls seem to hover where they die or go nowhere. When Kedeviss dies, Nimander's thoughts say essentially that while he ponders leaving behind her corpse. But Anomander's sacrifice reopened the connection with Mother Dark and presumably now all the souls left hovering over the milennia will go back into Darkness.

I don't know if I've ever seen a discussion of Edur souls. It's possible that they hover too or become shadow ghosts (in the blackwood or something). Tulas Shorn was one of the most interesting characters in Toll the Hounds and one of the most enigmatic.

I speculate that he died while fighting with the Jaghut armies against Death itself, was gathered by the god of death at the time and was thus interred within Hood's at-the-time-future or current realm.

Hmm. Do we have any other evidence for the souls going back to Darkness/Shadow/Light/MD's belly button?

The Andii hanging around on Lether seem to be the result of a combination of the Edur and Gothos' magic, those slain by the Edur became the shadow wraiths and those slain by KCCM are stuck in the micro-KG warren the CrG get into through the black monoliths. Nimander's thoughts on Kedeviss and her corpse could just be rather emo and/or ritualistic, and not necessarily indicative of the soul itself.

What we really need is someone to go grab their copy of MT and quote Sandalath as the object which binds her soul is thrown into the water by the CrG. She was not expecting her ressurection by the CG, so see if she says anything about either dissolving into non-existance, or else returning to the embrace of Darkness...

[Andirak]

Quote

So many layers, pressing down upon these indurative remnants, a moment of vast pressure, the thick, so thick skin tracing innumerable small deaths. And life was voice, not words but sound and motion. Where all else was still, silent. Oblivion waited when the last echo faded.
Dying the first time should have been enough. This world was foreign, after all. The gate sealed, swept away.
...
These remnants, suddenly in motion, grating motion. Fragments, particle too small to see, drawing together. As if remembering to what they had once belonged. And within the sea, within the silts, waited all that was needed. For flesh, for bone and blood. All these echoes, resurrected, finding shape. She looked on in horror.

It seems they should go back to KG/their world, but they stick around. I'm not sure which one the gate in question is. The one now in Black Coral?

[bebbe]

Quote

It seems they should go back to KG/their world, but they stick around. I'm not sure which one the gate in question is. The one now in Black Coral?

I believe there was a gate on the continent of Lether, Bloodeye told Ruin something like "we now hold the gate, more edur/andii will arrive." just before he stabbed him in the back. This gate was probably sealed by Gothos ritual.

I also seem to recall Korlat making a comment about that it is very rare that a tiste andii child is born, but that it is even rarer that a tiste andii steps out from the darkness or something like that. This should mean that there is a gate located somewhere close to the malazan empire.

This post has been edited by bebbe: 20 January 2009 - 07:29 AM

[Ain't_It_Just_]

amphibian, on Jan 20 2009, 04:32 AM, said:

bebbe, on Jan 19 2009, 12:20 PM, said:

Trull: "Then were are our ancesors?"
"Where?" Rhulad's voice was a rasp. "Where? Nowhere, brother. They are nowhere. Our souls flee our bodies, flee this world for we do not belong here. We have never belonged here."

That's an amazing quote, but I'm still wary of placing full weight of authority on Rhulad. He's only half-insane and being manipulated by the Crippled God.

We've had characters be wrong, lie or deceive before in the books (Jhenna from Night of Knives comes to mind).

I had to pick that quote to remember for no reason...
Scabby said:

"More, others will come. My kin and yours, fleeing our defeats."

I scanned the passage and found no mention of a gate.

[Urizen]

Ain't_It_Just_, on Jan 20 2009, 10:02 AM, said:

amphibian, on Jan 20 2009, 04:32 AM, said:

bebbe, on Jan 19 2009, 12:20 PM, said:

Trull: "Then were are our ancesors?"
"Where?" Rhulad's voice was a rasp. "Where? Nowhere, brother. They are nowhere. Our souls flee our bodies, flee this world for we do not belong here. We have never belonged here."

That's an amazing quote, but I'm still wary of placing full weight of authority on Rhulad. He's only half-insane and being manipulated by the Crippled God.

We've had characters be wrong, lie or deceive before in the books (Jhenna from Night of Knives comes to mind).

I had to pick that quote to remember for no reason...
Scabby said:

"More, others will come. My kin and yours, fleeing our defeats."

I scanned the passage and found no mention of a gate.

I seem to recollect Scabby mentioning something of only one holding the Gate after he struck down Silchas Ruin..
crackpot theory: Maybe the gate is located on Second Maid Fort. Yan Tovis at some point in RG calls the Second Maiden Fort island holy.

[Ain't_It_Just_]

You could be right...but assuming the gate was close by to where Scabby and Silchas were, perhaps not. The island is a while away from Letheras (and the Jaghut towers, which was near the battle between the Tiste Andii+Edur and the KCCM.

[bebbe]

Ain't_It_Just_, on Jan 20 2009, 10:02 AM, said:

amphibian, on Jan 20 2009, 04:32 AM, said:

bebbe, on Jan 19 2009, 12:20 PM, said:

Trull: "Then were are our ancesors?"
"Where?" Rhulad's voice was a rasp. "Where? Nowhere, brother. They are nowhere. Our souls flee our bodies, flee this world for we do not belong here. We have never belonged here."

That's an amazing quote, but I'm still wary of placing full weight of authority on Rhulad. He's only half-insane and being manipulated by the Crippled God.

We've had characters be wrong, lie or deceive before in the books (Jhenna from Night of Knives comes to mind).

I had to pick that quote to remember for no reason...
Scabby said:

"More, others will come. My kin and yours, fleeing our defeats."

I scanned the passage and found no mention of a gate.

s.20-21 Midnight Tides

"My legions were late in coming to your aid," Scabandari said "And for that, my heart breaks at your losses. Even so, we now hold the gate, do we not? The path to this world belongs to us."

[Puck]

Some quotes..

Tulas to Samar Dev, Karsa and Traveller:
'I am Tulas Shorn,' it said. 'I scarce recall when I last walked this realm, if I ever have. The very nature of my demise is lost to me, which, as you might imagine, is proving disconcerning.'
[TtH, HC, p. 596]

Tulas to Kallor:
[...] Grieve for the chains that bind all life, that you can never break. Weep, for me and my fallen kin - who did not hesitate to join a war that could not be won. [...]
[TtH, HC, p. 575]

My theory.. 'my fallen kin' are the other draconean Soletaken that joined the Jaghut in their war against Death. They all fell in that war and thus were imprisoned beneath the hills, which in turn means the other hills contained every one of the Soletaken that fell in said war. No collecting of draconean souls, just coincidence. And Tulas doesn't remember how exactly it died, only that it died, since so much time passed since then [of course, it could have lied].

Edit: Another thing has been bugging me, though it's slightly off-topic.. Why is it Tulas SHORN? It did have its hair when it veered into an Edur, didn't it? But the name suggests that it's an outcast, or is it just another coincidence?

This post has been edited by Puck: 20 January 2009 - 12:44 PM

[Benji]

Puck, on Jan 20 2009, 12:32 PM, said:

Edit: Another thing has been bugging me, though it's slightly off-topic.. Why is it Tulas SHORN? It did have its hair when it veered into an Edur, didn't it? But the name suggests that it's an outcast, or is it just another coincidence?

Crackpot theory: Maybe the Shorning was named AFTER Tulas was named...

[Puck]

Benji, on Jan 20 2009, 01:47 PM, said:

Puck, on Jan 20 2009, 12:32 PM, said:

Edit: Another thing has been bugging me, though it's slightly off-topic.. Why is it Tulas SHORN? It did have its hair when it veered into an Edur, didn't it? But the name suggests that it's an outcast, or is it just another coincidence?

Crackpot theory: Maybe the Shorning was named AFTER Tulas was named...

'Hey, look, he's a freak like Tulas, cut his hair off!' O_o

Back on topic *coughs*

[Benji]

I meant more like Tulas was exiled then the process soon became known as Shorning, after the first.

But still, like I said, CRACKPOT! Hehe

[Puck]

Yeah, to spin the crackpot theory further, maybe after Tulas they thought up a way to actually show that somebody has been exiled through, well, shorning.. Before it could have been just a kind of title hinting that the person was an outcast, like Silchas called Scabby Bloodeye.

This post has been edited by Puck: 20 January 2009 - 01:19 PM

[Abyss]

Urizen, on Jan 20 2009, 04:53 AM, said:

...Maybe the gate is located on Second Maid Fort. Yan Tovis at some point in RG calls the Second Maiden Fort island holy.

Y'know, given the link between the Shake and the Tiste, this may not be as crackpot as it seems. Fake rep to you for the thought, in any event.

Puck, on Jan 20 2009, 07:32 AM, said:

...
My theory.. 'my fallen kin' are the other draconean Soletaken that joined the Jaghut in their war against Death. They all fell in that war and thus were imprisoned beneath the hills, which in turn means the other hills contained every one of the Soletaken that fell in said war. No collecting of draconean souls, just coincidence. And Tulas doesn't remember how exactly it died, only that it died, since so much time passed since then [of course, it could have lied].

When Gruntle and the TTG mage were visiting Hood's warren, the hills started exploding and dead dragons started popping out. We don't know that they were or were not soletaken as opposed to trueblood eleint. There is a certain logic to Hood collecting either or both, if nothing else than because draconic souls are powerful enuf to resist death so it's a minor triumph for Hood when he collects one. Over a few hundred millenia or so, i imagine he might collect quite a few (when you consider that even one every thousand years or so amounts to quite a bit).

Puck, on Jan 20 2009, 07:32 AM, said:

Edit: Another thing has been bugging me, though it's slightly off-topic.. Why is it Tulas SHORN? It did have its hair when it veered into an Edur, didn't it? But the name suggests that it's an outcast, or is it just another coincidence?

Could go either way on this. Tiste seem to play fast and loose with names, ie: Anomandaris Dragnipurake to Anomander Rake, Liossercal to Osserc, Puff Daddy to P Diddy etc etc...

On the other hand, the link would be interesting. Tulas suggests the Edur weren't all that thrilled with him for coming up with the idea of the Hounds... maybe that sort of messing with nature and Shadow led to some harsh consequences. Other theory that's popped up is that Tulas was one of the draconic Tiste Scabby killed that led to KE shattering.

Benji, on Jan 20 2009, 07:47 AM, said:

Puck, on Jan 20 2009, 12:32 PM, said:

Edit: Another thing has been bugging me, though it's slightly off-topic.. Why is it Tulas SHORN? It did have its hair when it veered into an Edur, didn't it? But the name suggests that it's an outcast, or is it just another coincidence?

Crackpot theory: Maybe the Shorning was named AFTER Tulas was named...

Not so crackpot.



- Abyss, prefers crack in a pan.

[Urizen]

Puck, on Jan 20 2009, 01:32 PM, said:

Some quotes..

Tulas to Samar Dev, Karsa and Traveller:
'I am Tulas Shorn,' it said. 'I scarce recall when I last walked this realm, if I ever have. The very nature of my demise is lost to me, which, as you might imagine, is proving disconcerning.'
[TtH, HC, p. 596]

Tulas to Kallor:
[...] Grieve for the chains that bind all life, that you can never break. Weep, for me and my fallen kin - who did not hesitate to join a war that could not be won. [...]
[TtH, HC, p. 575]

Can we be certain that the undead dragon talking to Kallor actually is Tulas? don't Kallor call the undead Dragon Eleint rather than Soletaken or Soletaken Eleint.

Regarding the name Shorn: KE was riven by Scabby, by murdering the Edur Royal line and spilling draconean blood. I wouldn't be suprised if Tulas Shorn was the King/Ruler of KE with Sacabandari murdering Shorn and then starting a serious smear campaign( making him out to be the ultimate traitor) against Shorn. Which eventually makes being Shorn the eqivalent of a Judas or Quissling to use a RL exemple. Given the stupidety and selective memory of the regular Edur Scabby had it rather easy..