[Anomandaris]

Shadow, on Jan 24 2009, 11:14 PM, said:

@ Annomandaris. Why are you so quick to dismiss the Kaschan case. We had 3 people, with three different view points and 3 different cases. All, I thought, with merit. I think its reasonable to assume Kaschan was a Necro. I believe Kaschan was Necro, it makes me wonder why you are going after the 3 people that were instrumental in taking him down. With no CF, all we have is cases and logic. the further into the game we get with no CF the less solid information we will have to go on. As we were just hit with no CF, we had the most solid information we were going to get. Who would you have voted for? Tennes? We can do that any time and the case is going to be the same. "He doesn't post" Convenient place for a killer to hide at this point. I believe that we need to take down low posters, either day 2 or when we all can't agree on a case.

Quick is not the word I would use. If you look through the cases I have made, I have gone through each person's case on Kaschan point by point and not found any of them to be particularly convincing.

We CANNOT make the assumption that Kaschan was Necro. Without a CF, such certainty will only lead us astray. You seem to be insistent on this point, which makes me all the more suspicious of you.

Who would I have voted for? If you look back, you will see I voted for Galayn Lord. Meanas' case brings up some real contradictions in GL's behaviour around the time of the Fener lynch which look remarkably like a slip up to me. As far as I can tell, that case is a lot more substantial than any of Silanah's, Omtose's or your own case on Kaschan.

[Omtose]

Silanah:

Actually, I think it is a rubbish case by Anomandaris and says more about Anomandaris than about Silanah. Which is a pity, cause a good examination hurts no-one.
It for instance (except in the conclusion at the bottom) lacks the history that Silanah (if I;m not mistaken) was quite the low poster until someone (Meanas?) called attention to it and voted for him - i think it was said somewhere by Meanas in reaction to my 'why the fuck are you all voting Tennes?' post. It's somewhat of a loss that Ano does next to nothing with that fact, and doesn't comment a whole lot on the timing of Silanah rising to the occassion.

He calls the reason for going after Kaschan weak - hmm, well... I think it was pretty good, but as a fellow case-maker on Kaschan, I'm biased.
I wonder though what Anomandaris would have liked to have done yesterday. he never proposed an alternative lead, but does so now. A bit late, no?

He says Kaschan was going after low posters (established fact) and that this was used against Kaschan (established fact, Sil posted it - and was one? and so did I) but when people comment about Tennes, it's called hypocritical behaviour by Anomandaris. Seems like a smear campaign to me, not an actual scummy thing - also because Tennes being a lowposter is only a part of the reason to vote for him, as has been said a couple of times.

Anomandaris' conclusion is this:

Quote

So, he's made a weak case on Kaschan. He makes some assumptions about the executioners being twins...idle speculation for the most part, and I'm not going to pretend there was much suspicious about them. But after that, he decides that it is time to get rid of Tennes.

Quote

Certainly, having low posters around is annoying, but as I pointed out earlier, it is somewhat hypocritical of him to be playing the 'Lynch the Low Poster' card at this juncture, seeing as he was putting it forwards as evidence of scummyness on the part of Kaschan

.

In summary, Silanah has gone from posting very little to making some wild accusations after the CFs went away. Seems a bit scummy to me. However, his post on Kaschan was motivated mainly by Kessobahn's accusation, and as such he does kind of have a reason for doing so. I find him to be the least suspicious of the three accusers yesterday. That doesn't mean I discount him, however. Just that I'm more likely to put a vote on Omtose or Shadow.

Let's go over the underlined bits:
1) getting rid of Tennes - the reason for getting rid of Tennes specifically is 0 content and little to no posting, making it a hiding hole for Tennes. So lynch the low poster alone doesn't stand up.
2) here we have the Silanah is a low poster part. For me, it can point at two things:
a) silanah is now more active and this co-incides with Morgoth's gut feelings and the reason for it was being prodded by Meanas (?)
silanah is now more active and this co-incides with being prodded by meanas, but the reason for it was the lack of CF
--0> I'd say 2b is the scummy option, we shouldn't discard it, but we shouldn't also count it's that.
3) here's where I start to worry about Anomandaris. It seems like he is convinced that (one or more of) the people who pushed the lynch on Kaschan are scum and that Kaschan was an inno. This very much seems like an after the act counter case. Now, I can understand the need to do something like that to prevent tunnel vision, but he's talking about leaving a vote - why? Seems like he in turn is ruling out all other options.

I really would like Anomandaris' view on Meanas' Galayn Lord case.

All in all, thanks to Anomandaris for the effort, there's nuggets of good info in there, but it just doesn't add up for me in a convincing way... he says so himself, even. Could that be thr classic 'present 3 cases, 2 with effort, 1 with none, to plead the one guy free/give him an easy chance at an alibi?'

In that case, we've got a symp helping his master here. In the case of point 2b being true, I can't help but think this could be the case.

The sole thing I must state is that Anomandaris is a helpful player. We all know what that can mean, but not always does mean.

[Anomandaris]

Omtose, on Jan 25 2009, 11:54 AM, said:

As for thinking about CF - ridiculous point. Not scummy in itself, as you say.
But saying killers have night vision and we are groping about... Scum always have that - the question you should ask yourself is: what does it change for us, and what should we do? I had my personal answer for that - go for the throat, don't give them time. Be ruthless.

Examine the situation:
Firstly, we had a few good traces to go with, traces that would become muddied had we waited, which is what you seem to advocate. The only light source (to stay in your analogy) we as team inno will get, is when a reveal lights a match. Evil will be rapidly trying to snuff that match out. 'When in doubt, attack (which is usually leading to a near fatal dose of day 2 syndrome )' We're in doubt all the time now, as we lack any confirmation of our thoughts. But I feel if we start cowering in a corner, we'll be lead by vocal scum by a ring through our nose in no-time.

The point about the analogy is that whereas with the CF we would have indications as to whether we are on the right track, now we are left with only finder reveals, which will be few and far between, and to be honest I'd prefer to keep to the late game. We have no way of building up a picture of how well the game is progressing any more. You point out that the evils will be trying to lead us by the nose - I see that as already having happened. Recruiting Kessobahn was the obvious choice, so the fact that it wasn't done implies to me that someone felt not having a CF was a better course of action. That means the Necros are alert to the possibilities that have opened up for them now we are blinder than before, and thus likely to try and exploit them. Hence why I've been looking at you three so closely.

[Liosan]

I am heading back to my own house now guys, so i wont be on again until tomorrow. i can see the merit in both points of view, but remember we are looking for two sets of scum, so just because people you look at do not agree doesn't make one of them an innocent. We also need to keep an eye out for recruits and symps.

Hopefully more people will come on before i am back, it feels like there are only a few of us playing at the moment.

This post has been edited by Liosan: 25 January 2009 - 03:16 PM

[Anomandaris]

Some context to this post: It was supposed to be part of my previous one addressing Omtose's defence. Somehow I managed not to include it, not sure quite how that happened. Anyway, here it is:

OK, so looking over Omtose's defence, I find it to be a good one. I have to admit I was reaching a little bit at times throughout that case in a way I didn't find I needed to for Silanah or Shadow. Of the three cases I've made, his is the one that convinced me the least, and his defence is robust enough that I'll drop you down my list of suspects a bit. His case on Kaschan was the only one that seemed to have anything to it, so while I disagree with it, I'm content to let him stand by his opinion on the matter.

[Anomandaris]

Omtose, on Jan 25 2009, 02:51 PM, said:

Silanah:

Actually, I think it is a rubbish case by Anomandaris and says more about Anomandaris than about Silanah. Which is a pity, cause a good examination hurts no-one.
It for instance (except in the conclusion at the bottom) lacks the history that Silanah (if I;m not mistaken) was quite the low poster until someone (Meanas?) called attention to it and voted for him - i think it was said somewhere by Meanas in reaction to my 'why the fuck are you all voting Tennes?' post. It's somewhat of a loss that Ano does next to nothing with that fact, and doesn't comment a whole lot on the timing of Silanah rising to the occassion.

He calls the reason for going after Kaschan weak - hmm, well... I think it was pretty good, but as a fellow case-maker on Kaschan, I'm biased.
I wonder though what Anomandaris would have liked to have done yesterday. he never proposed an alternative lead, but does so now. A bit late, no?

He says Kaschan was going after low posters (established fact) and that this was used against Kaschan (established fact, Sil posted it - and was one? and so did I) but when people comment about Tennes, it's called hypocritical behaviour by Anomandaris. Seems like a smear campaign to me, not an actual scummy thing - also because Tennes being a lowposter is only a part of the reason to vote for him, as has been said a couple of times.

Anomandaris' conclusion is this:

Quote

So, he's made a weak case on Kaschan. He makes some assumptions about the executioners being twins...idle speculation for the most part, and I'm not going to pretend there was much suspicious about them. But after that, he decides that it is time to get rid of Tennes.

Quote

Certainly, having low posters around is annoying, but as I pointed out earlier, it is somewhat hypocritical of him to be playing the 'Lynch the Low Poster' card at this juncture, seeing as he was putting it forwards as evidence of scummyness on the part of Kaschan

.

In summary, Silanah has gone from posting very little to making some wild accusations after the CFs went away. Seems a bit scummy to me. However, his post on Kaschan was motivated mainly by Kessobahn's accusation, and as such he does kind of have a reason for doing so. I find him to be the least suspicious of the three accusers yesterday. That doesn't mean I discount him, however. Just that I'm more likely to put a vote on Omtose or Shadow.

Let's go over the underlined bits:
1) getting rid of Tennes - the reason for getting rid of Tennes specifically is 0 content and little to no posting, making it a hiding hole for Tennes. So lynch the low poster alone doesn't stand up.
2) here we have the Silanah is a low poster part. For me, it can point at two things:
a) silanah is now more active and this co-incides with Morgoth's gut feelings and the reason for it was being prodded by Meanas (?)
silanah is now more active and this co-incides with being prodded by meanas, but the reason for it was the lack of CF
--0> I'd say 2b is the scummy option, we shouldn't discard it, but we shouldn't also count it's that.
3) here's where I start to worry about Anomandaris. It seems like he is convinced that (one or more of) the people who pushed the lynch on Kaschan are scum and that Kaschan was an inno. This very much seems like an after the act counter case. Now, I can understand the need to do something like that to prevent tunnel vision, but he's talking about leaving a vote - why? Seems like he in turn is ruling out all other options.

I really would like Anomandaris' view on Meanas' Galayn Lord case.

All in all, thanks to Anomandaris for the effort, there's nuggets of good info in there, but it just doesn't add up for me in a convincing way... he says so himself, even. Could that be thr classic 'present 3 cases, 2 with effort, 1 with none, to plead the one guy free/give him an easy chance at an alibi?'

In that case, we've got a symp helping his master here. In the case of point 2b being true, I can't help but think this could be the case.

The sole thing I must state is that Anomandaris is a helpful player. We all know what that can mean, but not always does mean.

If you look back to Day 3, you will see that I think Meanas' case on Galayn Lord was a good one, enough so that I switched votes to Galayn Lord. That is who I thought we should have been going after, and I saw so little in the Kaschan cases that I thought something really strange must be going on - here we had a strong case on GL, but noone was giving it the time of day.

As far as my case on Silanah being a poor one, if anything of the three I was writing it seemed to me that yours was the weakest one I wrote. There was emphasis on Silanah being a low poster to start - I stated that apart from one or two things, there was next to no content from him in the first two days. Silanah definitely has markedly changes his posting style, and his case was a weak one - you said so yourself on Day 3 when you made your own case on Kaschan.

As far as I can see, it doesn't matter if the 'lynch the low poster' claim is only a part of your case or not, it's still hypocritical to turn around and go after the low poster yourself later, and that hypocrisy in my mind invalidates any weight that part of the case might have had.

I should point out that I am not in the throes of tunnel vision - I am willing to listen and make arguments on other subjects, should good stuff come up. Galayn Lord is a case in point (pardon the pun ).

[Anomandaris]

Silanah, on Jan 24 2009, 08:26 PM, said:

Wow, not a lot has happened while I was away.

Apart from the case made on you, you mean?


And with that, I'm off for a bit...might be back later.

[Galayn Lord]

Ok atm I think Im still suspicious of Meanas as a killer or Symp but looking at the lynchess of Fener and Kaschan Ano stood out to me as not wanting to lynch either of them despite the likelyhood that they were necromancers. So I think that ano is likely to be undead, possibly the creature. If you look at the following 2 quotes it appears to me that he is definitely trying to downplay the lynch as not very sensible and make out that the cases are weak.

Anomandaris, on Jan 22 2009, 02:32 PM, said:

Right, well I'm not entirely sure that reveal was wise, but I guess what's done is done. From your evidence, I would be more inclined to draw the conclusion that Fener was recruited last night, as opposed to actually being one of the Necromancers (although that doesn't preclude him from being the Creature...hmm). If possible, I'd prefer to try and target the necromancers themselves as opposed to the undead - cut off the head and we stop the cult from growing, y'know? So I figure we should hold off on lynching Fener until we don't have any other avenues to pursue.

I'll admit that despite all the muck that people have been raking up (admirably large quantities ), there isn't really a strong candidate for a lynch today thus far. However, I'll hold off on voting for Fener for a little while just in case something else appears.

The underlined quote especially seems strange as at that point Fener was a very strong lynch candidate.

Anomandaris, on Jan 23 2009, 07:26 PM, said:

Have to say I really don't see much in either of the cases on Kaschan at all...going after low posters? Not especially scummy in my book. Wanting to wait for Fener to get a chance to put in a defence? I was doing that too...don't see anything wrong with it. Yeah, he was talking about the Korlat case without actually adding much to it...ok, fair enough. But commenting that a case exists isn't exactly a cardinal sin either.

In short, I'm quite concerned about how quickly Kaschan has been picking up votes based on what, as far as I can tell, aren't particularly strong cases.

EDIT: Crosspost with a lot of stuff.

so because he's pinged my radar as a likely undead
vote Anomandaris

[Meanas]

Ok I am here for just a minute. Nice to see that people are making cases. Sorry about not being on more this weekend it has been a crazy weekend and it isn't over yet. As I like my case on Galayn lord more then any other out and I think that he is more then likely a necro and has to go.

Vote Galayn Lord


Tennes play has been so suspicious that right now he would be my next choice for a lynch. Ok I got to go I hope to be back on later today.

[Meanas]

Galayn Lord, on Jan 25 2009, 04:12 PM, said:

Ok atm I think Im still suspicious of Meanas as a killer or Symp but looking at the lynchess of Fener and Kaschan Ano stood out to me as not wanting to lynch either of them despite the likelyhood that they were necromancers. So I think that ano is likely to be undead, possibly the creature. If you look at the following 2 quotes it appears to me that he is definitely trying to downplay the lynch as not very sensible and make out that the cases are weak.

Anomandaris, on Jan 22 2009, 02:32 PM, said:

Right, well I'm not entirely sure that reveal was wise, but I guess what's done is done. From your evidence, I would be more inclined to draw the conclusion that Fener was recruited last night, as opposed to actually being one of the Necromancers (although that doesn't preclude him from being the Creature...hmm). If possible, I'd prefer to try and target the necromancers themselves as opposed to the undead - cut off the head and we stop the cult from growing, y'know? So I figure we should hold off on lynching Fener until we don't have any other avenues to pursue.

I'll admit that despite all the muck that people have been raking up (admirably large quantities ), there isn't really a strong candidate for a lynch today thus far. However, I'll hold off on voting for Fener for a little while just in case something else appears.

The underlined quote especially seems strange as at that point Fener was a very strong lynch candidate.

Anomandaris, on Jan 23 2009, 07:26 PM, said:

Have to say I really don't see much in either of the cases on Kaschan at all...going after low posters? Not especially scummy in my book. Wanting to wait for Fener to get a chance to put in a defence? I was doing that too...don't see anything wrong with it. Yeah, he was talking about the Korlat case without actually adding much to it...ok, fair enough. But commenting that a case exists isn't exactly a cardinal sin either.

In short, I'm quite concerned about how quickly Kaschan has been picking up votes based on what, as far as I can tell, aren't particularly strong cases.

EDIT: Crosspost with a lot of stuff.

so because he's pinged my radar as a likely undead
vote Anomandaris

Is that OMGUS I see, can't be bothered to defend against my case so I must be either a killer or a symp. Great defense.

[Galayn Lord]

Errrrr. I said I suspected you of being a killer or a symp long before you made a case on me. Get your facts straight before spouting rubbish.

[Path-Shaper]

It is day 4 - TIME HAS STOPPED FOR THE WEEKEND BREAK

16 players still playing, 9 votes to lynch, 8 votes for night

1 vote for Tennes (Korlat)
1 vote for Anomandaris (Rashan, Galayn Lord)
3 votes for Galayn Lord (Liosan, Omtose, Meanas)
1 vote for Shadow (Anomandaris)

9 have not voted: D'riss, Galain, Hood's Path, Mockra, Ruse, Shadow, Silanah, Tennes, Thyrllan.

Note: Time will restart 8am GMT again.

[Hood's Path]

I've just finished reading through everything and I must say excellent case on GL Omtose. It is also true that you did draw our attention to GL earlier when alot of us were building the cases against Fenner and Kaschan, so it doesn't seem to as if you've suddenly pulled all this info out of nowhere.

I don't want to add another page of quotes here as there seems to be enough of that, but I will sum up what I think so far. I went back and read through GL's posts, there is alot of jumpy behaviour going on. One minute he's accusatory, and was heavily for lynching Kesso, the next he says he didn't really think about it. I believe he says he didn't think things through properly about three times. Everytime there was some pressure on him, rather than defend his case he changes and swings the other way. He more than anyone it seems was trying to push the idea od Kesso being a liar.

The connections Omtose has made between Fenner Kaschan and GL seem to be strong and make sense to me. I atually think there is more evidence to go on with GL in realtion to the triangle than there was a Kashcan. I think Kaschan garnered alot of attention at the time because he was actually mentioned by Kesso and was acting strangely. As we lynched Kaschan because of his connection with Fenner, I think we have to go for GL. There is a definite connection to Kashcan and Fenner here, plus we have more info than we did on Kaschan this case is more concrete.

I think we should also keep a close eye on Anomandaris, this is the third time he's disagreed when we've had a fairly stong case built on someone. Everytime it looks like we may be going for a lynch he disagrees and tries to sway our attention, or votes for someone completely different, often using the excuse of not wanting to speed lynch. It is starting to look very suspicious. I'm wondering if he is the creature trying to protect his masters.

I'm going to have a look at Tennes now, he is suspicious but I think we have some stronger cases going at the moment. It bothers me that he's been asked to post more by several people now and still we hear nothing from him. He's not even making an attempt, despite the fact that we are saying his not posting is making him look suspicious. As I say I don't think his is the strongest case we have, and it's not the best idea to lynch him just for low posting. We could do that at any time really. I would rather leave the option open for later on.

Based on his behaviour and the case that's been built against him I'm going with GL unless we find something more concrete on someone else.

Vote Galayn Lord

[Rashan]

uggg. Hang overs are the worst part of drinking.

Remove Vote

I'll recover from my hangover and try to make sense of the super long and complicated cases that are flying about. But right now, I think I am going to try and sleep this off.

[Mockra]

urghh

hey people

sick Mockra is getting really sick, sorry I haven't been around much

i'll try to take time to read all the cases made in the last 3 days thoroughly and contribute something meaningful later today, I promise.

*fades off, coughing and sneezing*

[Silanah]

Anomandaris, on Jan 25 2009, 10:47 AM, said:

Silanah, on Jan 24 2009, 08:26 PM, said:

Wow, not a lot has happened while I was away.

Apart from the case made on you, you mean?


And with that, I'm off for a bit...might be back later.

Well.. to be honest, it wasn't very strong.. you and I both know that, so I really don't need to defend myself from someone trying to scrape something from the bottom of the barrel. So yes, nothing really happened

[Korlat]

Wow ... this is even slower than usual for a weekend. Especially in such a large game.

I think the lack of CF has everyone discouraged. Great job, morgoth. Great job.

[Mockra]

okay, I have red in detail the last 4 pages, and it took a long time.
my head's not good enough to play around with quotes right now, so i'll say the 2 thoughts i've had while reading all this, and then i'm off to bed, because there are classes to go to tomorrow

first thing: i believe we should lynch Galyn Lord today.
I may be biased, but there is precedent when scum were the quickest to advocate a lynch on thte person revealing as finder.
in the Fener situation, though the reasons for reveal may be questionable, Mafia 101 (and here I completely agree with the late yellow) says you lynch the one the supposed finder out first, then you lynch the revealer.
there was no reason to deviate from that course, and GL'svote for KEsso in that situation is inexplicable, other than him being a scum.

second thing: Re: Ano's cases.
I appreciate the effort you take in making cases,, and the shifts in activity you point out are surprising.
However, i'm not sure if we're looking for the right people.
Shadow, who supposedly (i'm taking your word on it, b/c I i'm exhausted and can't actually go and read all his posts to detect the drastic shift you talk about) became "enligtened" and "dead certain" on day 3 strikes me as more of a rectruit than an original scum. this is just a feeling I have, but if Fener was the original Necro, and shadow a night 1 recruit, his actions make sense... at lesat to me, in my head, right now.

anyhow, it's def. something to look at. now i'moff to gewt some much needed sleep. They say, it is, After all, the best medicine.

I will vote GL tomorrow. don't want to do it now, when I won't be around to change, and I want to hear more discussion before we lynch. I don't lie assuming that we were so fortunate yesterday, and going off WCS, there could be 5 necros out there right now. I think we need to take as much time as we can and get as much discussion as possible everyday to give us as much infoon everyone as we can.

ok all that being said, I now say good night to you all

[Path-Shaper]

It is day 4 - 36 Hours till Day end.

16 players still playing, 9 votes to lynch, 8 votes for night

1 vote Tennes (Korlat)
1 vote for Anomandaris (Galayn Lord)
4 vote for Galayn Lord (Liosan, Omtose, Meanas, Hood's Path)
1 vote for Shadow (Anomandaris)

9 have not voted: D'riss, Galain, Mockra, Rashan, Ruse, Shadow, Silanah, Tennes, Thyrllan.

This post has been edited by Path-Shaper: 26 January 2009 - 09:30 AM

[Shadow]

Alright. I am exhausted after this weekend but I am going to throw up my answers to Anno's quotes before I go to bed.

Anomandaris, on Jan 25 2009, 06:34 AM, said:

Shadow, on Jan 20 2009, 05:25 PM, said:

*snip* train analysis *snip*

So to me the HP, Meanas and Rashan votes seem the most suspicious. If we do get a serc lynch and he CF's inno I would start there as people to look at

In this post, Shadow runs down all the votes cast on Serc and gives a brief comment about whether or not he finds them suspicious. How helpful!

What can I say? I'm a helpful guy? I analyzed a train and gave my thoughts. Not sure what you are trying to say here.

Shadow, on Jan 21 2009, 08:13 PM, said:

*snip* Kaschan reread *snip*

So I guess my synopsis on Kaschan up to this point is that he has stayed fairly consisent I Don't think he is a Necro, he could be a recruit, but I don't see why he would be night killed last night and further why the Necros would assume he would be the NK enough to put him on the list of three. He could be a killer, he was on the Serc train and he hasn't shown much inclination to point fingers and take a stand today yet.

For now I am willing to leave him alone, I think he is more than likely an inno with Killer possibilities.

****Shadow would like to point out that he is in no way PIing or supporting Kaschan in any way. Just putting out there what he saw on his reread so that maybe others can challenge him or glean some information that he didn't****

Shadow goes for a reread and doesn't find much on Kaschan...ironic considering what happened later.

I didn't say I didn't find much, I said I was willing to leave him alone. This post was made before the Fener lynch, and before the Kess reveal. As more information became available I changed my opinion. Look at my analysis, I said he was middle of the road and didn't take a stand. This, combined with the information that came up later, to me, pointed to a clear Kach lynch. It was also enough for the other 10-12 ( can't remember) people to vote.

Shadow, on Jan 21 2009, 09:35 PM, said:

*snip* Galain Reread *snip*

All in all... not much there. Some major back and forth on Serc and then a random D'riss vote. I am definately not comfortable with him. But not enough to go on to drop a vote. He could be a killer distancing and, realizing that a Serc lynch was about to happen jumped ship knowing he was inno, he could say "well I thought he was inno, he was, so I must not be scum!" He could be an inno, that just isn't sure of things. He makes some points I agree with about lynching low posters. Could also be a Necro for the same reasons stated above for the Killer. So at this point I am just not sure. I doejust have a weird feeling about him, and the Serc back-n-forth followed by the D'riss vote just doesn't sit right with me. Ok off too eat. I'll look at the Kesso case when I get back.

Once again, doesn't find much. Shadow doesn't do cases, he does rereads - makes him appear very helpful, but never really finding anything of value means that he doesn't get seen as making waves by actually starting a train that will turn out to be wrong.

Yes I do do rereads. I also give my opinions on the rereads with a synopsis at the end. Its how I view the person. Rereads lead to cases. If I found either of them especially suspicious then the "reread" would have turned into a "case" I have no problem starting a train. I was the first person to vote Gaylan Lord iirc before changing to Silanah on day 2. I am not "trying to appear helpful" I am putting out my opinion on a certain player. Ask yourself. Would scum do this? Would scum put out so much info to tie back to them? Remember this was all done pre CF loss. Imo, the more info out there the better, if something I brought up sparks some logic/ a case in someone else, then it is worth it.

And now for a little hyperbole:

Shadow, on Jan 21 2009, 11:59 PM, said:

wow... this is .... crazy. He just so happened to leave the amount of names that the Necro's get to choose each night. If he comes up undead.... that is a Major slip up.

Listing three suspects is not a 'Major slip up'. If he has three suspects, he lists three suspects, if he has four suspects, he lists four suspects. I'm not a huge fan of these unsubstantiated suspect lists at all, but that one seems to have been at least 2/3 (possibly even 100%, we'll have to see about that) accurate, so I think adding more names he is less sure about and thus diluting it is probably a mistake. Someone is trying to whip up a storm.

I didn't say listing 3 suspects is a major slip up. I said if he comes up undead, then it is a major slip up. Why?? because it would be a huge hint that he is the creature. I bolded that last bit.... So you are telling me that if Kess came back undead he wouldn't be the Prime creature suspect? Not sure how this is Whipping up a storm. Nobody knew at the time if Kess was full of shit or not.

Shadow, on Jan 22 2009, 05:46 PM, said:

What's he going to say though?? "no i'm not" If Kess is full of shit, we'll get a CF and know. If Kess is telling the truth, we'll get a CF and know. If he has been recruited, he's not going to tell us anything. I guess the only reason we hold off is if Kess for some reason decided to fake reveal cause he is sure of Fener's guilt. I guess i'll hold off. Who knows, maybe a day vig will come by and take out Kess or Fener and save us the trouble

Now here's an odd post. Throughout the first few days, Shadow has made a point of asking all the people with trains on them who their suspects are (see below). So why would he suddenly stop the practice now? He doesn't go as far as actually casting a vote though, because Shadow has tended to be cautious thus far. (For completeness, here are Shadow's questions on that matter):

I think it was fairly clear that Fener was the lynch this day. I fully expected Kess to be alive come morning. This is obvious in the way I ,partly, attributed my vote on Kach to the fact that Kess was dead and their was no CF in the morning. We would know in the morning if Kess was true or full of shit. I chose to wait till I knew which. That being said, I might not have asked him. I didn't ask Kasch either...but you chose not to mention that... it didn't fit in with this case you are trying to make. I ask that question when we have a CF. The next day we get an alignment. If they CF inno we can put more credence into what they say (not tons cause after all there are symps) But as my play style has thus far indicated...I like to get people talking. I like them to say things, it gives everyone more info to look back at later. (why do you think I asked GL.. he hadn't posted anything up to that point) Otherwise we end up end game with a bunch of Tennes and its a crap shoot.

Right, so now we get on to day 3, and suddenly Shadow has something that convinces him.

Shadow, on Jan 23 2009, 05:09 PM, said:

I'm here.

Synopsis. No New Recruit: Good ( though gould have been a vig, creature kill and a killer kill...lets hope not)

No CF:Bad

Not sure what to make of the Ampleas Kill. Though I did kinda peg him as PI.. he was on no one's radar and actually I don't remember anyone bringing him up. Probably the Killers kill as they were probably trying to get people that wouldn't be recruited.

@Sil's Case- Good job. I agree that it did seem like he was trying to delay the Fener lynch as well as pushing it at low posters. I know I did a synopsis on Kaschan and based a non Necro view on him because of a statement he made... and I think I fell into his trap. Good move Kaschan.

So along with Morgoth's feelings. (he has been amazing in the games I have played), and Sil's case ( mostly the slowing of the Fener lynch) AND this:

this is the main reason I want to vote Kasch, especially combined with Sil and Morgoth.

I can't see any reason that the Necro's wouldn't Recruit Kess SOMEONE was going to target him. he was ripe for the recruiting. The ONLY REASON the necro's wouldn't recruit Kesso and increase there numbers is that they were afraid of the CF. They knew Kaschan was going to be looked at hard today because of Morgoth and the Fener CF. They knew he was a very possible lynch. They didn't want that CF. They need as much confusion going around as possible to get us off the backs of the other Necro (s?) They didn't recruit Kess because they didn't want a CF on Kaschan.

vote Kaschan

Right, so his reasons for voting are Silanah's case, which as both Omtose and myself have showed is a very weak case,(actually Omtose did like some of it, just not the way it was presented..thats how I interpreted his post) and Morgoth's feelings(sorry, but after you have dealt with them for a bunch of games and he is consistently accurate...well, I trust his gut). The latter carries a little more weight than Kaschan gave them credit for (they were key in getting him lynched) but still are not the strongest of justifications. And the whole thing about the Necros not recruiting so we don't get to see Kaschan's CF seems like flawed reasoning to me. What do the necros care if we know that we've managed to hit one of them? (because the less the inno's know, the better...after all, all the Necros have to do is get rid of everyone not on their team...and they all know eachother)We get a little bit of evidence based on people's reactions to the case, I guess, but surely they'd stand more to gain if Kaschan was inno? Now we're on the wrong track, and have no way to tell. If Kaschan were guilty, it would have been in their interests to keep the CFs in play and be vocal in their criticisms of him, thereby giving them something to point to later if and when suspicion comes back around to them.(I'm sorry, this makes no sense to me. If we have a CF and If he CF's Guilty there are ties to the other Necros!!! Tell me that if we, as inno's, knew Kasch was a necro that GL wouldn't be dead 24 hours ago... there is no way. They knew. They knew that Kasch was on the block the next day. They knew that if we lynched Kach and he CF'd necro that GL would be next in line..... If GL is Necro.. well thats 3 Necro's dead in 3 lynch attempts. This connection was made back before Kess was killed (during the Fener lynch). Tell me Yellow didn't think of this. I consider Yellow a smart player. He would have thought of this. So, not convinced by this either. (it really doesn't matter if you are convinced. I was convinced. Its the reasoning behind my vote. Whether you are convinced or not, its why I did what I did.)

Shadow, on Jan 23 2009, 05:27 PM, said:

@ Liosan- I agree, and Tennes has come across as a somewhat cavilier low poster. I would have no problem voting him off. But right now, I think we have a good case on Kaschan. A really good case.

A really good case? Really? Omtose hasn't even made his case at this point. (This if factually wrong. If you are going to make a case on me at least be accurate. Omtose made his case on post 1345. on page 34 (40 posts per page). This quote was on page 35.)At least his case actually had some substance to it - Silanah's and Shadow's are rather weak, and to call this a 'really good case' at this stage is to my mind a gross exaggeration. (also notice I said WE have a really good case. On the whole. Sil + Omtose+ me) when 3 people bring to the table different views that come to the same conclusion..well it's usually a duck.

Here Shadow restates his case...but even now, when it is dissected it doesn't seem that strong:

Shadow, on Jan 23 2009, 07:14 PM, said:

Kaschan, on Jan 23 2009, 11:06 AM, said:

Shadow, on Jan 23 2009, 07:04 PM, said:

Kaschan, on Jan 23 2009, 10:14 AM, said:

Shadow, on Jan 23 2009, 05:09 PM, said:

So along with Morgoth's feelings. (he has been amazing in the games I have played)

See what I mean? Morgoth's gut feeling must be right, because he's been amazing in the games Shadow has played.

Damn, just lynch me now, it's open and shut.

Way to take the main reason I voted for you out of my quote. Thats not suspicious at all. You sir are Necro scum

I was making a point. Which completely stands. This entire thing has been based on Morgoth's "amazingness", which not only is not founded on anything, it's also proved to be counterproductive (i.e. his reveal, and the whole unnecessary part of it).

Fine point made. Its not based on just Morgo's gut as you keep trying to make us think. Its based on:
1. Middle of the road behavior
2. Somewhat supporting a CF'd Undead ( it doesn't matter if you wanted to hear his case before a vote. The fact we have is that YOU DIDNT VOTE)
3. And the big one. please explain this. Why the hell wouldn't the Necro's recruit Kess. Please give me a reason. The Reason is that they didn't want a CF on you. Otherwise a CF would benefit them, because they would know if their creature died and/or if they hit a killer. it would also swell their numbers by 1 and be able to cause Havok for at least a day among the innos with a live Kess.

It doesn't add up Kaschan.There are to many "coincidences" Your play points to you being a Necro.

1. OK, that one is alright, but you really need more than just that to back it up - by itself it is nothing. I don't find the other two points convincing in the slightest.

2. Not voting =/= Would not have voted. Allow me to point out that Shadow didn't vote for Fener either! Waiting to hear the other side of the story is not scummy behaviour - even if they are going to be lynched anyway, it's always more satisfying to know that they were at least given a chance to defend themselves. So this, no matter how forcefully you want to put it, is not a good point.

3. As I explained above, the necros not recruiting Kess does not support the hypothesis that Kaschan is scum. In fact, as I've been saying, it's more likely that the opposite is true, and that the necros are trying to convince us that we have hit scum, thereby pulling the wool over our eyes. Putting so much weight on this is very suspicious to my mind - when you've come up with a clever strategem like the one I've outlined, it would suit you to try and twist the facts to fit the opposite conclusion.

Ok, here, I admit is a bad post. I was at work and rushed. I wasn't very clear or thourough on the reasons for my voting. And you're right, if you just read this post by itself it really isn't justification for the certainty I feel.

You know what I was saying about how we can't be certain of anything anymore due to the lack of CFs, and how the scum would try to convince us we were on the right track because we can't tell anymore? Check this out:

Shadow, on Jan 23 2009, 09:44 PM, said:

Well i really think Kaschan was Necro so i'll do it.



So I guess we wait for night. I'll be around for the next couple hours if anyone wants to chat

Like I said. I am convinced. I also think others agree that Kasch was necro. Thats why we got a lynch. In no one's reasons for voting did they cite the reason "Just cause we need a lynch" I don't know about you but I don't vote someone I don't think is guilty ( barring day 1). And notice I said "I Think" how is stating my opinion trying to convince anyone? It isn't. I thought we hit scum. I was happy.


In summary: Shadow's playing style has changed. He has gone from the helpful but not especially commital player of Days 1 and 2, to someone who has become convinced over a weak case. He has been trying to convince people that he was right when we have no way of knowing that this is the case, and when it would seem to be a favourable strategy for the scum to use. He was the most rabid (I had my shots!!) of the three in pushing the Kaschan lynch yesterday, but without a whole lot of evidence to back himself up. I find him to be the most suspicious of the three.

Anyway, I guess my style has changed a little...but only in reaction to the additional info we have received. You say I am convinced over a weak case, I feel it was much stronger. As I said, I feel I was right, in fact I still think I'm right. Thats just how it is. I am going to base my future decisions on the assumption that Kasch was guilty as well as any future info we get. Based on the amount of GL votes we have so far, I think I am not alone in thinking Kasch was guilty. (granted, a lot of the GL case is on sketchy behavior... but its sketchy behavior when Fener (a necro) was under pressure.

hope this helps people see my side of things. I'll have punch and pie in the inn along with a Q & A for anyone with further questions

EDIT for clarity and Grammer

This post has been edited by Shadow: 26 January 2009 - 07:46 AM