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The Deck of Dragons Current Deck of Dragons Rate Topic: -----

#41 User is offline   Benji 

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Posted 21 January 2009 - 01:01 PM

I don't think he really had anything to do with The Crippled God until he washed up on the shore.
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#42 User is offline   Abyss 

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Posted 21 January 2009 - 04:43 PM

View Postkairuf, on Jan 13 2009, 11:57 PM, said:

Since SE has not given us a deck of dragons (in the index) lately,
lets speculate on the new positions and who might hold them

House of War
Torc-bearer>Picker
...



View PostAin, on Jan 14 2009, 12:08 AM, said:

I don't think Torc-bearer would be in there...by some other title...


I'd go with 'Herald', if anything. Torc-bearer was just a ref to her previous link to Trake that apprently left a trace Toc could follow in his own Herald of Death role.

It would be logical for Picker to have some link to the BH/HoW... her own history combined with being the torc-bearer for a while, plus the BBs now having a card.

But she could also find herself linked to them.
I speculated, two forum flushes ago ago in a less informed state of thinkymeatz, on Fid, QB and Kalam becoming SA, Dt and MS of the bridgeburners ascendent. We've since seen their ascendent status is less than that of actual gods so no mortal investitures seem to have happened. Yet.


View Postkairuf, on Jan 14 2009, 12:45 AM, said:

I have a feeling that karsa will be leaving HHC for ether HHW or maybe deathslayer, becouse i have a feeling that karsa in TtH was asked to kill Hood


Hood's already dead, or at least no longer a god, so unlikely.

That said, the CG held positions in two Houses EDIT (thanks Seg1st): represented by two cards back in TB, so no reason someone else can't hold more than one slot in the pantheon.


View PostUrizen, on Jan 14 2009, 05:54 AM, said:

I can see Heuk becoming Mage of Darkness. I wonder who will become the new Knight of Drakness? Silchas Ruin, Nimander? ...


Not unthinkable. Heuk seems poised to take or retake a position as Draconus' High Priest. Given Drac's return and recently revealed links to Mommy D and the aspect of Darkness, and Mommy D's return, it's not unthinkable that HHDark is in for a major shift. And just the skew things further, back in MT Drac had a slot in the Eleint Hold, and while we've never seen it, he's been ref'd as soletaken draconic in MT at least, so that element is also at play.

Silch and Nimander have yet to carve out new roles for themselves. Silch especially is a wild card that could really go any which way, including alliance with the CG.

View PostAin, on Jan 15 2009, 09:39 AM, said:

Who holds the position of Hound? We never found out.


'Hound' is a ref to the HoS. There is no 'Hound', singular, that we've ever seen. In GotM, Tattersail accidentally summoned Gear via that card.


View Postblackzoid, on Jan 15 2009, 10:18 AM, said:

People, there is a difference between a metorphorical reading of the Deck and actual positions in a House.
I keep coming back to the reading in DG, Kalam was identified as the Rope in High House Shadow, does that mean he deposed Cotillion? No, it was a personal reading of the deck for himself only.
Don't get too hung up on the other Readings, until SE gives a new appendix, I don't consider any changes set in stone.


I'm so glad someone else has raised this for a change. Have invisible rep Blackzoid.

Yes, for the upteenth time, a position in a reading/prophecy/vision/whatever and a position in the pantheon are not not NOT the same things.

View PostBenji, on Jan 15 2009, 02:45 PM, said:

The most recent positions was from RotCG. If I recall correctly:

...
Those are the ones I can remember off the top of my head...



Yes, but some of those are derived from temporary roles and some are actually held in the pantheon and even then up for debate.

View PostHoosierDaddy, on Jan 15 2009, 03:05 PM, said:

You are forgetting King of Night: Draconus


View PostHoosierDaddy, on Jan 15 2009, 05:09 PM, said:

View PostAptorian, on Jan 15 2009, 05:08 PM, said:

It's a tittle brought up in RCG.

It created a lot of confusion. It is not known if it was Draconus.


True, but it was Draconus before it exited the Deck.



View PostHoosierDaddy, on Jan 16 2009, 01:44 PM, said:

Well, seeing as how King of Night was drawn FROM A DECK, by a true talent, and Ereko thought: "That's impossible. That card has been inactive for thousands of years." And, of course it is the most dreaded card in the Deck because Draconus is in freaking Dragnipur. Doesn't exactly bode well for the person it was drawn for. It is an actual card....


Exactly. Drac WAS a player, was kebabed into Dragnipur and faded, and by the time that reading takes place, he's re-emerging, hence also his 'appearance' before Nait in Heuk's ritual.

View PostBenji, on Jan 16 2009, 12:25 PM, said:

Well some of those positions were far too brief to warrant notice. Whiskeyjack as Mason of HHD was never certain anyway, people just said it because he used to be a mason. Trull WAS actually Knight of Shadow, character in the book commented on it quite frequently, but the same book he gained that position was also the same book that he died in...


re WJ, agreed. he was never Mason in any House. he just occupied that position in a reading, back in GotM i think.

As for Trull, he actually ascended in TB, but was confirmed in RG. And then of course he bought it. Sniff.

View PostImperial High Mage Tayschrenn, on Jan 16 2009, 12:53 PM, said:

...
Whiskeyjack is the Mason (he's with the Herald and the Knight among others at TTH
...


He's in Hood's warren at that point, but he's also known as Iskar Jarak by that point and Hood addresses him as that, not Mason. As opposed to Knight, Soldier and Herald, all of whom Hood addresses according to their positions.


View PostAin, on Jan 20 2009, 03:22 AM, said:

I think she has kinda gone off and started doing her own thing...



View PostHoosierDaddy, on Jan 20 2009, 03:28 AM, said:

How has she cut of connections? She remains an assassin with supreme skills in the art of shadow dancing, with the memories and some of the same skills of the patron of assassins in High House Shadow...



View PostAin, on Jan 20 2009, 03:30 AM, said:

Ok ok, I just can't see her entering Shadow Keep, ready to strike some sort of deal with ST in exchange for some time off or somesuch.



View PostUrizen, on Jan 14 2009, 05:54 AM, said:

...It would not suprise me if Apsalar has become Queen of Shadow without trying.


Possible. we've been speculating for years that she might step into the pantheon, especially post TB. But she does seem pretty disengaged as of the end of that book.

re stating the above and the Trull ref, people can just slide into positions, even unwillingly. ST and Cot didn't exactly adopt Trull, but he ascended anyways.

View PostBenji, on Jan 20 2009, 07:59 AM, said:

Remember, affiliation doesn't really make much difference. Skinner had no affiliation with The Crippled God and look where he is now.

View PostBenji, on Jan 21 2009, 08:01 AM, said:

I don't think he really had anything to do with The Crippled God until he washed up on the shore.


No obvious affiliation, but as they discuss on the beach at the end, the CG was helping him behind the scenes for a while before the the finale of RCG.

View PostAin, on Jan 21 2009, 05:33 AM, said:

Do you think the rest of the Avowed knew about his bargain with the CG? I doubt they'll be too bloody happy.


That IS a good question.


In as much as it reflects the pantheon, I don't think the Deck will EVER be a set, stable thing with an entirely known cast of characters. By its very nature, it shifts to reflect changes in power and position. It's a divination tool, not a cast list.

To complicate things, it also depends on where the Deck is... the pantheon on Leth has the Errant holding an aspect that would be held by the MoD/Paran on Genabackis. Death didn't even exist as a Hold on Leth until the Azath House died and became a House of death, so what happened to the 'Azath' aspect at that point? And then 'Azath' doesn't even seem to exist in the Deck on other continents, but 'Seed' from the Azath Hold in MT (Kettle, in case you were wondering) showed up in Starvald Demelain and opened up a whole new Azath House in RG on the site of a gate to pretty much everywhere.... how does that play?

Hood randomly shifted Soldier and Knight - we know, we KNOW, Baudin was Knight in MoI and the Second was Soldier in TB, yet in TtH their positions switch. SE error? I think NOT. Hood is (was) 'King' and can designate the roles any way he wants. He needed Baudin in the Dragnipur fight (or something - it's a little unclear) but needed a strong champion to go defend Dragnipur, so he switched the role, probably with a related change in invested power level, and off they went. QB in MoI identifies Talamandas was Magi of HHDeath, but in TB it's mentioned that QB himself stinks of Hood's power... maybe Hood pulled a fast one and actually made QB the Magi? who can say...

- Abyss, just blew your minds, go on, admit it... :)

This post has been edited by Abyss: 21 January 2009 - 06:31 PM

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#43 User is offline   Seguleh 1st 

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Posted 21 January 2009 - 05:56 PM

you are far from blowing my mind, i admit as much. :)

Quote

That said, the CG held positions in two Houses back in TB, so no reason someone else can't hold more than one slot in the pantheon.

isnt deathslayer an unaligned and not within a house?
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#44 User is offline   HoosierDaddy 

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Posted 21 January 2009 - 06:00 PM

Yes, but that doesn't mean it isn't representative of an ascendant in the deck.
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#45 User is offline   D'rek 

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Posted 21 January 2009 - 06:25 PM

View PostAbyss, on Jan 21 2009, 11:43 AM, said:

That IS a good question.


In as much as it reflects the pantheon, I don't think the Deck will EVER be a set, stable thing with an entirely known cast of characters. By its very nature, it shifts to reflect changes in power and position. It's a divination tool, not a cast list.

To complicate things, it also depends on where the Deck is... the pantheon on Leth has the Errant holding an aspect that would be held by the MoD/Paran on Genabackis. Death didn't even exist as a Hold on Leth until the Azath House died and became a House of death, so what happened to the 'Azath' aspect at that point? And then 'Azath' doesn't even seem to exist in the Deck on other continents, but 'Seed' from the Azath Hold in MT (Kettle, in case you were wondering) showed up in Starvald Demelain and opened up a whole new Azath House in RG on the site of a gate to pretty much everywhere.... how does that play?

Hood randomly shifted Soldier and Knight - we know, we KNOW, Baudin was Knight in MoI and the Second was Soldier in TB, yet in TtH their positions switch. SE error? I think NOT. Hood is (was) 'King' and can designate the roles any way he wants. He needed Baudin in the Dragnipur fight (or something - it's a little unclear) but needed a strong champion to go defend Dragnipur, so he switched the role, probably with a related change in invested power level, and off they went. QB in MoI identifies Talamandas was Magi of HHDeath, but in TB it's mentioned that QB himself stinks of Hood's power... maybe Hood pulled a fast one and actually made QB the Magi? who can say...

- Abyss, just blew your minds, go on, admit it... :)


I admit it, you just blew my mind. That QB bit is particularly mind-boggling, though I don't think it's very likely.

Overall, I think Tiserra adding her own cards to her Deck (for Darujhistan of all things) for her readings was the killing blow for the concept of the Decks being anything more than divination tools...

View Postworrywort, on 14 September 2012 - 08:07 PM, said:

I kinda love it when D'rek unleashes her nerd wrath, as I knew she would here. Sorry innocent bystanders, but someone's gotta be the kindling.
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#46 User is offline   Abyss 

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Posted 21 January 2009 - 06:35 PM

View PostSeguleh 1st, on Jan 21 2009, 12:56 PM, said:

...
isnt deathslayer an unaligned and not within a house?


yes and editted accordingly, thanks for the catch.

View PostHoosierDaddy, on Jan 21 2009, 01:00 PM, said:

Yes, but that doesn't mean it isn't representative of an ascendant in the deck.


Exactly. Similarly, Karsa has been ref'd, alternately, as Champion and Mortal Sword of the CG AND Knight of the HoC... it's flexible.

View PostD'rek, on Jan 21 2009, 01:25 PM, said:

...Overall, I think Tiserra adding her own cards to her Deck (for Darujhistan of all things) for her readings was the killing blow for the concept of the Decks being anything more than divination tools...


Not completely - while in MoI the MoD card just 'appeared' on the bottom of the table, in theory Talents who have their own decks may feel compelled to include new cards. Even the mystery Deck that Fid and co discover in TB was made by T'amber.

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#47 User is offline   D'rek 

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Posted 21 January 2009 - 06:52 PM

View PostAbyss, on Jan 21 2009, 01:35 PM, said:

View PostD'rek, on Jan 21 2009, 01:25 PM, said:

...Overall, I think Tiserra adding her own cards to her Deck (for Darujhistan of all things) for her readings was the killing blow for the concept of the Decks being anything more than divination tools...


Not completely - while in MoI the MoD card just 'appeared' on the bottom of the table, in theory Talents who have their own decks may feel compelled to include new cards. Even the mystery Deck that Fid and co discover in TB was made by T'amber.

- Abyss, bluffing.


Yes. I meant it more as in all the new cards we'd seen before were either representing a new ascendant (Trull, Ganoes, Iccy? etc) or were made to be a universal card to fill a certain role (the BBs card, Salvation, etc. basically those made by Ganoes).

The City, on the other hand, was clearly not an ascendant and just made by Tiserra to serve her own function and won't likely be seen in anyone else's readings...

View Postworrywort, on 14 September 2012 - 08:07 PM, said:

I kinda love it when D'rek unleashes her nerd wrath, as I knew she would here. Sorry innocent bystanders, but someone's gotta be the kindling.
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#48 User is offline   Urizen 

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Posted 21 January 2009 - 07:44 PM

View PostAin, on Jan 21 2009, 05:33 AM, said:

To complicate things, it also depends on where the Deck is... the pantheon on Leth has the Errant holding an aspect that would be held by the MoD/Paran on Genabackis. Death didn't even exist as a Hold on Leth until the Azath House died and became a House of death, so what happened to the 'Azath' aspect at that point? And then 'Azath' doesn't even seem to exist in the Deck on other continents, but 'Seed' from the Azath Hold in MT (Kettle, in case you were wondering) showed up in Starvald Demelain and opened up a whole new Azath House in RG on the site of a gate to pretty much everywhere.... how does that play?


Not to nitpick but don't "Seed" belong to the Ice Hold? And I thought Kettle was Keeper of the Azath Hold?

View PostAin, on Jan 21 2009, 05:33 AM, said:

Hood randomly shifted Soldier and Knight - we know, we KNOW, Baudin was Knight in MoI and the Second was Soldier in TB, yet in TtH their positions switch. SE error? I think NOT. Hood is (was) 'King' and can designate the roles any way he wants. He needed Baudin in the Dragnipur fight (or something - it's a little unclear) but needed a strong champion to go defend Dragnipur, so he switched the role, probably with a related change in invested power level, and off they went. QB in MoI identifies Talamandas was Magi of HHDeath, but in TB it's mentioned that QB himself stinks of Hood's power... maybe Hood pulled a fast one and actually made QB the Magi? who can say...

- Abyss, just blew your minds, go on, admit it... :)


Regarding Baudin, I wonder if Hood didn't send him out into the world on some mission. Toc and the Second get special orders from Hood so why wouldn't Baudin get it? It's not like Hood needed to summon Baudin just to tell him in person to fight Chaos.
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#49 User is offline   Seguleh 1st 

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Posted 21 January 2009 - 09:00 PM

bah. i hope not, cause i dont like baudin and certainly he should not appear again IMO.
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#50 User is offline   kairuf 

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Posted 22 January 2009 - 01:25 AM

View PostD'rek, on Jan 21 2009, 07:25 PM, said:

Overall, I think Tiserra adding her own cards to her Deck (for Darujhistan of all things) for her readings was the killing blow for the concept of the Decks being anything more than divination tools...


Ya, I think that you are right
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#51 User is offline   Ain't_It_Just_ 

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Posted 22 January 2009 - 04:09 AM

Dunno if this means anything, but in RG Quick Ben said that Hood owed him. Maybe because he was made Magi against his wishes?

BUT-I'm thinking that if he was the Magi, Hood would have kept him close to hand during TtH.
Suck it Errant!


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#52 User is offline   Abyss 

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Posted 22 January 2009 - 04:58 AM

View PostUrizen, on Jan 21 2009, 02:44 PM, said:

...Not to nitpick but don't "Seed" belong to the Ice Hold? And I thought Kettle was Keeper of the Azath Hold?


Look at FW's second tile reading in MT. It really, really looks like it describes the forthcoming 'quest' Silch and co find themselves on at the end of Mt into RG, and we know Kettle turns out to be a 'seed' for the Azath.

View PostUrizen, on Jan 21 2009, 02:44 PM, said:

...Regarding Baudin, I wonder if Hood didn't send him out into the world on some mission. Toc and the Second get special orders from Hood so why wouldn't Baudin get it? It's not like Hood needed to summon Baudin just to tell him in person to fight Chaos.


That's my thought. I figure he's being sent to either stop survivors from the chains or to serve whomever is to succeed hood (still betting on Edgewalker for that role).

View PostAin't_It_Just_, on Jan 21 2009, 11:09 PM, said:

Dunno if this means anything, but in RG Quick Ben said that Hood owed him. Maybe because he was made Magi against his wishes?

BUT-I'm thinking that if he was the Magi, Hood would have kept him close to hand during TtH.


At such a critical point, how could he trust him?

Plus Quick has a whole other role to play in stopping the CG. Risking him in Dragnipur when he had all those dead to work with would be wasteful.

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#53 User is offline   Urizen 

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Posted 22 January 2009 - 10:19 AM

View PostAbyss, on Jan 22 2009, 05:58 AM, said:

Look at FW's second tile reading in MT. It really, really looks like it describes the forthcoming 'quest' Silch and co find themselves on at the end of Mt into RG, and we know Kettle turns out to be a 'seed' for the Azath.


I did look at that, and in the MT appendix. Seed is placed in the Ice Hold in the appendix.
Kuru Qan's reading was Barrow(Azath)-> Gate (of the Dragon Hold)-> Betrayer (Empty Hold) -> White Crow(Silchas)-> Seed (Ice Hold) -> a blank (Chaos).
Brys and Kuru Qand do not know which is the start and which is the end. I interpreted this as Blank, the current situation early MT with the CG making his move -> Seed represents Rhulad's sword they get from the ice, the seed to the corrupt Edur empire if you will -> then Silchas Ruin as the unaligned, playing his own game -> followed by Betrayer, (Clip perhaps? or maybe Udinaas) who leads to the Gate to Starvald Demelain and finally the end whitch has a new Azath formed, Barrow.


View PostAbyss, on Jan 22 2009, 05:58 AM, said:

That's my thought. I figure he's being sent to either stop survivors from the chains or to serve whomever is to succeed hood (still betting on Edgewalker for that role).


I'm betting on the Redeemer or maybe Karsa as the new King. Edgewalker is supposed to be tied to Shadow in some way. He calls himself a slave to Shadow in NoK. So I don't think he has the abilty to actually leave Shadow (permanently that is) for another Realm.
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#54 User is offline   Abyss 

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Posted 22 January 2009 - 06:37 PM

View PostUrizen, on Jan 22 2009, 05:19 AM, said:

View PostAbyss, on Jan 22 2009, 05:58 AM, said:

Look at FW's second tile reading in MT. It really, really looks like it describes the forthcoming 'quest' Silch and co find themselves on at the end of Mt into RG, and we know Kettle turns out to be a 'seed' for the Azath.


I did look at that, and in the MT appendix. Seed is placed in the Ice Hold in the appendix.
Kuru Qan's reading was Barrow(Azath)-> Gate (of the Dragon Hold)-> Betrayer (Empty Hold) -> White Crow(Silchas)-> Seed (Ice Hold) -> a blank (Chaos).
Brys and Kuru Qand do not know which is the start and which is the end. I interpreted this as Blank, the current situation early MT with the CG making his move -> Seed represents Rhulad's sword they get from the ice, the seed to the corrupt Edur empire if you will -> then Silchas Ruin as the unaligned, playing his own game -> followed by Betrayer, (Clip perhaps? or maybe Udinaas) who leads to the Gate to Starvald Demelain and finally the end whitch has a new Azath formed, Barrow.



It's hardly a revelation that there are links between the Azath and the Jaghut. In any event, its a specific reading and the tiles could be flexible. As speculation goes.

View PostAbyss, on Jan 22 2009, 05:58 AM, said:

That's my thought. I figure he's being sent to either stop survivors from the chains or to serve whomever is to succeed hood (still betting on Edgewalker for that role).


Quote

...Edgewalker is supposed to be tied to Shadow in some way. He calls himself a slave to Shadow in NoK. So I don't think he has the abilty to actually leave Shadow (permanently that is) for another Realm.


In the TtH prologue, edgy shows up at a meeting which at a minimum included Hood and ST, and states that they want him... to 'mitigate'. Not mediate. Not meditate. Not mentholate.... 'mitigate'.

I figure Hood + St + whoever was in the carriage have sufficient power to change Edgy's aspect if necessary.

Just a theory.

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#55 User is offline   Urizen 

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Posted 22 January 2009 - 07:58 PM

View PostAbyss, on Jan 22 2009, 07:37 PM, said:

In the TtH prologue, edgy shows up at a meeting which at a minimum included Hood and ST, and states that they want him... to 'mitigate'. Not mediate. Not meditate. Not mentholate.... 'mitigate'.

Just a theory.

- Abyss, medicated.


It was Edgewalker's appearance outside Shadow that made me add permanently.

True, mitigate is not the same as mediate or meditate but neither is mitigate the same as migrate...
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#56 User is offline   Ain't_It_Just_ 

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Posted 24 January 2009 - 06:43 AM

And wheat is to bread as lols are to rofls...
Suck it Errant!


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QUOTE (KeithF @ Jun 30 2009, 09:49 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
It has been proven beyond all reasonable doubt that the most powerful force on Wu is a bunch of messed-up Malazans with Moranth munitions.


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