[foolio]

1)I got the impression that the trespasser in the imperial warren that topper zaps with Kurald Galain is Apsalar. He said her style was like "ours" but not like ours. It was the bit about recognizing her fathers style that clenched it for me. As she attempts to leave she is wrapping herself in Shadow. I didnt think she would be so easily owned but there were alot of things in this book that you just had to grin and bear....like my second point
2) Dancer couldnt beat Cowl, Anomader Rake couldnt beat Cowl, Cowl almost kills Silanah but Cowl is running for his life from Topper. Come on, just seems like revisionist history...

[snoman52]

I thought the intruder in the imperial warren was Vorcan's daughter?

and although he didn't kill Cowl, Dancer must have beat Cowl at some point or another to become Kellanved's right hand man

[Aptorian]

I for one refuse to believe it was Apsalar. She would not had gone down so easily. No way. And it can't be vorcans daughter since, if my memory is correct, Topper took down that woman before Vorcans daughter killed Lasseen.

Cowl was nearly killed the last time Dancer fought him, his neck was slashed open. Dancer probably left him for dead. And Cowl is the best assassin among the guard, you don't expect him to be able to give Dancer a good fight?

Anomander could beat Cowl, he just didn't have the time or the will (pissed offf enough) to hunt him down properly.

Sillanah's "just" a dragon. As we saw in RG if you hit a dragon hard and fast before they know what's happening, they can be taken down.

As for Topper. You didn't expect the former leader of the claw to be good?

[HoosierDaddy]

Not Apsalar. She is way to bad-ass and doesn't iirc use the imperial warren to move about. She would use shadow.

[Benji]

I *think* that the woman who Topper takes down is possibly a Veil. Topper would not have hesitated if it were a member of the Black Glove and he would have avoided her if she was a loyal claw.

[HoosierDaddy]

Benji, on Jan 12 2009, 04:48 PM, said:

I *think* that the woman who Topper takes down is possibly a Veil. Topper would not have hesitated if it were a member of the Black Glove and he would have avoided her if she was a loyal claw.

Topper's pretty nuts by that point, and is wondering aloud why Rel keeps sending Gloves into Imperial Warren. He also slightly hesitates because he recognizes "her style." If the claw was in the imperial warren, with or without knowledge of it, they were working for Rel. There were no "loyal" claw who entered the warren.

[Urizen]

Aptorian, on Jan 12 2009, 10:05 PM, said:

I for one refuse to believe it was Apsalar. She would not had gone down so easily. No way. And it can't be vorcans daughter since, if my memory is correct, Topper took down that woman before Vorcans daughter killed Lasseen.

I too refuse to beleve it was Apsalar. Seeing how she has Dancer/Cotillion's memories I doubt she would have been shocked and suprised of Topper's Kurlad Galain attack. Also, Apsalar would not refer to Cotillion as her father, nor does she has a good relationship with him as the mystery woman does with her father.
I wonder more what Topper did at the end when he placed her in some sort of KG weave?

I have specualted before that the mysterious woman might be Amaron's daughter. He used to be a Talon commander, so he might have trained a daughter in their way of fighting. Then there is the fact that Amaron was the League's head of inteligence. Sending a skilled and reliable agent into the Imperial Warren for info gathering and maybe an oppertunistic assaination makes sense, since the Imperial Warren is how the Claws and other important persons travel.

Aptorian, on Jan 12 2009, 10:05 PM, said:

Cowl was nearly killed the last time Dancer fought him, his neck was slashed open. Dancer probably left him for dead. And Cowl is the best assassin among the guard, you don't expect him to be able to give Dancer a good fight?

Anomander could beat Cowl, he just didn't have the time or the will (pissed offf enough) to hunt him down properly.

Sillanah's "just" a dragon. As we saw in RG if you hit a dragon hard and fast before they know what's happening, they can be taken down.

As for Topper. You didn't expect the former leader of the claw to be good?

Or Cowl escaped through warren before the coup de grace was delivered by Dancer. Likely something similar happened with Rake

[Ain't_It_Just_]

Perhaps Topper gained new powers whilst being Ragman? If not, his efficacy must be real as when he emerged for the first time in RotCG and attacked Cowl, it said they were old adversaries.

[HoosierDaddy]

Ain't_It_Just_, on Jan 13 2009, 02:25 AM, said:

Perhaps Topper gained new powers whilst being Ragman? If not, his efficacy must be real as when he emerged for the first time in RotCG and attacked Cowl, it said they were old adversaries.

For all we know Topper was the true Claw-Master (in skill-level [outside perhaps Kalam]) since Lassen went from Claw-Master to Empress. There is no need for his skills to improve while he is in the IW. Secondly, it is Topper himself who has been waiting years for Cowl to return, indicating a belief in his own prodigious skills for a long while before his extrication to the IW.

[Shinrei]

IMO the best argument for it NOT to be Apsalar is - why the heck would she be in the Imperial Warren?

[Aptorian]

Then I'll counter and ask why wouldn't she be in the imperial warren? Half of the things in that book happen for no particular reason.

I still refuse to believe it's apsalar though.

[The Drum]

On the subject of Topper in the Imperial Warren, why is he there? why is he killing anyone who uses to warren? Has he turned his back on the empire and is he now acting solely on his own behalf?

Does anyone think that knowing the Gaurd would return, Laseen sent Topper into the warren to deny any of Rel's Claw's using it and to prepare himself to face cowl? We know Cowl is a hard b'stardso maybe Topper needed to go a bit crazy in order to be fully commited to the chase?

[Hinter]

The Drum, on Jan 13 2009, 12:51 PM, said:

Does anyone think that knowing the Gaurd would return, Laseen sent Topper into the warren to deny any of Rel's Claw's using it and to prepare himself to face cowl? We know Cowl is a hard b'stardso maybe Topper needed to go a bit crazy in order to be fully commited to the chase?

That's exactly why he's in there, to deny Laseens enemies use of the warren and thin them out.

[foolio]

I really missed how it was only Rell's Claw that Topper was killing in the IW. My bad. I previously thought that some were loyal(Laseen) claws investigating as well.

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As for Topper. You didn't expect the former leader of the claw to be good?

Yeah I guess I didnt expect him to be that good. I figured he would be about like Amaron , who we saw go out like a chump. And the entire series, we seem to be getting conditioned to cringe when we hear Cowls name, not so with Topper.

Also we were told that Apsalar and Kalam just absolutely devastated the Claw in BH. Now they seem to be limitless and more numerous than ever. I also thought topper was Claw master by default. Kalam refuses, Dancer ascends, and I would not think Surly would not want an extremely powerful clawmaster , afterall she knows better than anyone how close that is to power. Also we see Pearl running things and he is kind of a chump and a coward...

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Then I'll counter and ask why wouldn't she be in the imperial warren? Half of the things in that book happen for no particular reason.

I still refuse to believe it's apsalar though.

When I first read the sequence I was already thinking that there was no way Apsalar would go out so easily, but like you said some things happen for no reason. I was expecting the Rag Man tyo be some elder god or something that pwned Apsalar. Doesnt he say he has been alive forever at some point living different lives until he gets bored with them, then he finds a new identity...I hope it was not apsalar but man the description certainly sounds like her.

Korbolo Dom out generals some of the great strategist of the old guard, why couldnt Topper own Apsalar. You know the civil war battle was like Julius Ceasar being out generaled by GW Bush, or Alexander the great being out generaled by Mr T.

This post has been edited by foolio: 13 January 2009 - 06:15 PM

[HoosierDaddy]

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I really missed how it was only Rell\'s Claw that Topper was killing in the IW. My bad. I previously thought that some were loyal(Laseen) claws investigating as well.

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As for Topper. You didn\'t expect the former leader of the claw to be good?

Yeah I guess I didnt expect him to be that good. I figured he would be about like Amaron , who we saw go out like a chump. And the entire series, we seem to be getting conditioned to cringe when we hear Cowls name, not so with Topper.

Also we were told that Apsalar and Kalam just absolutely devastated the Claw in BH. Now they seem to be limitless and more numerous than ever. I also thought topper was Claw master by default. Kalam refuses, Dancer ascends, and I would not think Surly would not want an extremely powerful clawmaster , afterall she knows better than anyone how close that is to power. Also we see Pearl running things and he is kind of a chump and a coward...

Amaron got killed by Ryllandaras who also took out Rell and thousands of other people in the story. Not exactly chump-territory.

Secondly, while there are plenty of Claw, most of them are new and not very good... thus how easily they get pwned by the Veils.

Third, Clawmaster by default except for Possum, Pearl, and other Claws being around? She appointed him, not anyone else.

Fourth, Pearl is Clawmaster because Topper is in the IW going bat-shit crazy.

Fifth, Laseen\'s belief in her own ability is pretty profound. She knew she could take out any other assasin, other than perhaps Cowl, who she has Topper on.

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Then I\'ll counter and ask why wouldn\'t she be in the imperial warren? Half of the things in that book happen for no particular reason.

I still refuse to believe it\'s apsalar though.

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When I first read the sequence I was already thinking that there was no way Apsalar would go out so easily, but like you said some things happen for no reason. I was expecting the Rag Man tyo be some elder god or something that pwned Apsalar. Doesnt he say he has been alive forever at some point living different lives until he gets bored with them, then he finds a new identity...I hope it was not apsalar but man the description certainly sounds like her.

Korbolo Dom out generals some of the great strategist of the old guard, why couldnt Topper own Apsalar. You know the civil war battle was like Julius Ceasar being out generaled by GW Bush, or Alexander the great being out generaled by Mr T.

Korbolo Dom didn\'t out-general anybody. He got owned by Coltaine in DG, he would have been owned by Choss/Ullen if not for the disappearance of the Seti, their light cavalry which competely opened them up. Plus the Untan Irreguars went nuts, can't exactly game-plan that.

This post has been edited by HoosierDaddy: 13 January 2009 - 06:35 PM

[Sinisdar Toste]

well the Talian league had suffered some huge losses, the Seti, for instance, and you should never underestimate the power of ten thousand angry people with malazan issue assault crossbows.

[Dolorous Menhir]

It wasn't Apsalar. Apsalar and Topper know each other. That was not interaction between people who knew each other.

[foolio]

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It wasn't Apsalar. Apsalar and Topper know each other. That was not interaction between people who knew each other.

I missed this. How do Apsalar and Topper know each other?

[HoosierDaddy]

Apsalar would have probably known Topper from Dancer's memories.

[foolio]

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Apsalar would have probably known Topper from Dancer's memories.

good point , and she does say something like, "you, no we thought you were" then she gets zapped. Topper would not know her though.

This post has been edited by foolio: 13 January 2009 - 09:05 PM