[Illuyankas]

Well, I tried watching the Christmas special, which was the first Doctor Who I've seen since the second series of David Tennant (of the award-winning* Christmas movie Nativity 2: Danger in the Manger fame) and it'll probably be the last because while most of it ranged from eh to pretty nice, and this Matt Smith dude was much better than I was expecting, the part where the naive hot chick who's the latest audience stand-in for all the fangirls swooning over the Doctor does that whole huge 'everyone loves the Doctor please love him too' dribbling whisper into the spacetime crack I rolled my eyes so fast they spun out of their sockets and flew through a window causing a lot of smashing and what seemed like a huge pileup. I sadly can't be sure because I can't see anymore, because that bit was just that stupid.

[amphibian]

The thing is the Clara (forgot the actress name) has a ton of screen presence, more than any of the recent companions. So much so that a friend and I agreed she probably isn't long for the show - she'll get offers to move elsewhere. She just had a shit sandwich of a scene given to her there. Otherwise, she's knocking things out of the park.

That's what I mean by the occasional uneven writing. QuickTidal said Moffat likes to clobber us with the "important" moments. It also popped up with the repeating of the good guy henchman in the museum. Did we really need to see that twice?

[Illuyankas]

Serious question for someone more familiar with the older series, how many companions were clearly in love with or flat-out fancied the Doctor over the years? I'm betting more since the reboot than before (even counting Romana).

[amphibian]

It sounds dopey when described as such, but think about this: these women meet a mysterious stranger (usually tall and possessing some considerable personal charm) who wants them to go on unique adventures in a magic ship that can go anywhere at any time and he's basically richer than anyone ever in the history of things, always wins and has a tragic past.

It's like the perfect storm of attractive points to just about anyone of any gender or attraction, much less these strong, capable, really attractive women.

[polishgenius]

It'll be interesting to see how they go now with the much older Capaldi, regarding the flirting. I mean he's a dapper gent and all that, but the dynamic will be different.


(I'm not going to spoiler tag this big dollop of a post, so be warned)


Anyway, on the ep: It was good, but it didn't wow me. I think the tension between needing a Christmas special and needing to wrap up all of 11's threads really showed - the Christmas stuff felt very forced. I was impressed with the way they explained everything regarding Trenzelor and the Silence, I thought there was too much contradictory stuff to do it (though there is now a massive plothole given that Trenzelor as he saw it in the future no longer exists, meaning Clara never became the Impossible Girl etc etc). That stuff worked for the most part though.

I was a bit underwhelmed by the regeneration itself, though. I liked Smith's last big speech - it's been one of his trademarks so it was good, showy without feeling the need to get overboard to match the Rings of Akhaten or Pandorica speeches (on a side note, it makes me laugh that his two most epic boasts

Spoiler

both resulted in epic failures.

And his little monologue about changing was very good too. But the stuff with Amy was gimmicky and using his regeneration energy to kill all the Daleks was fucking stupid.

Also- they really really need to get someone else in play to bounce off Clara and flesh her out. Moff clearly isn't as good at the family stuff as RTD but with Amy he had Rory and that was gold. It seemed like here he was going to indroduce the kids but that's gone nowhere (thankfully, coz they can't act).



Also also- I like the concept of the Doctor having an ally who's a converted Dalek, but Tasha Lem is waaaaaaaaaaaay too close to River Song.

[QuickTidal]

Illuyankas, on 27 December 2013 - 02:58 AM, said:

Serious question for someone more familiar with the older series, how many companions were clearly in love with or flat-out fancied the Doctor over the years? I'm betting more since the reboot than before (even counting Romana).

I don't think I'd say that of anyone on a level more than friendship...even Sarah Jane and Peri....who I'd call the closest to such Rose/Martha feelings...but yeah it wasn't really a facet of the show till NuWho.

If I were forced to choose, Sarah Jane in hindsight of her time was one, and maybe Peri.

Not Romana I, that's for sure...but possibly Romana II who continues to have a soft spot for the Doctor in the Big Finish Audio's all the way up to the Eighth Doctor.

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 27 December 2013 - 01:13 PM

[QuickTidal]

polishgenius, on 27 December 2013 - 09:15 AM, said:

Anyway, on the ep: It was good, but it didn't wow me. I think the tension between needing a Christmas special and needing to wrap up all of 11's threads really showed - the Christmas stuff felt very forced. I was impressed with the way they explained everything regarding Trenzelor and the Silence, I thought there was too much contradictory stuff to do it (though there is now a massive plothole given that Trenzelor as he saw it in the future no longer exists, meaning Clara never became the Impossible Girl etc etc). That stuff worked for the most part though.

I was a bit underwhelmed by the regeneration itself, though. I liked Smith's last big speech - it's been one of his trademarks so it was good, showy without feeling the need to get overboard to match the Rings of Akhaten or Pandorica speeches (on a side note, it makes me laugh that his two most epic boasts

Spoiler

both resulted in epic failures.

And his little monologue about changing was very good too. But the stuff with Amy was gimmicky and using his regeneration energy to kill all the Daleks was fucking stupid.

Also- they really really need to get someone else in play to bounce off Clara and flesh her out. Moff clearly isn't as good at the family stuff as RTD but with Amy he had Rory and that was gold. It seemed like here he was going to indroduce the kids but that's gone nowhere (thankfully, coz they can't act).



Also also- I like the concept of the Doctor having an ally who's a converted Dalek, but Tasha Lem is waaaaaaaaaaaay too close to River Song.

Agree on most of your thoughts about the ep, it felt like a kitchen sink ep with nods to closing a bunch of loops...but the Daleks, Cybermen ect. were all kind of toothless. Somebody mentioned that the Daleks have not actually "exterminated" someone since S5.

Re: the Regen energy as weapon. This is not new the more I thought about it. Nine, and Ten both had the regen energy nearly destroy the inside of the TARDIS and set shit on fire. In Ten's case it was so bad that Eleven had to allow the TARDIS time to rebuild her insides. So for me that wasn't much of a stretch.

Awww...the Amy moment got me like a gut punch. I was expecting a cameo, but I can't explain how much "Raggedy Man, Goodnight" hit me on the back of her last words from the ANGELS ep "Raggedy man, Goodbye" It was overwhelming and I lost it.

I'm really HOPING that RTD is allowed to come back to write an ep or two in S8...he could infuse some seriously needed character development and familial stuff into the show.

[Werthead]

Well, that was an incoherent mess. I know Smith wasn't supposed to leave this soon and Moffat thought he had another year to resolve his storylines and was caught on the hop a bit, but even so he should have been able to come up with something better than this. Hell, he could have even made the 50th Anniversary and the Christmas Special into more of a two-parter and really gone to town on it.

As is traditional with Moffat, the emotional beats almost worked (until they were let down by the gaping plot holes) and there was no shortage of great ideas (a cynical religion which shifts believes in step with its followers is a fascinating concept), but there was also some very weird sexism ("Now THAT's what I call a woman!" - huh?) and very little made any sense. There only appears to be a couple of hundred people in the village at best: why not just evacuate them via the TARDIS and fly off to another space and time? Also, jamming Amy into the finale seemed rather disrespectful to Clara, who just got to stand there like a lemon.

In fact, after Day of the Doctor's success - better plotting and characterisation, Clara finally getting some excellent moments based on character development rather than being a Macguffin - Time of the Doctor was a fairly major letdown.

Still, Capaldi looks like he'll be brilliant. They just really need to replace Moffat as well and bring in some new blood.

[QuickTidal]

Werthead, on 27 December 2013 - 01:13 PM, said:

Well, that was an incoherent mess. I know Smith wasn't supposed to leave this soon and Moffat thought he had another year to resolve his storylines and was caught on the hop a bit, but even so he should have been able to come up with something better than this.

Indeed, and what's most telling about that...is that Moffat wanted to spend a WHOLE other season closing off storylines he started in 2010...and I'm kind of hoping that Matt was tired of it. He must have pitched it to the BBC like "I'm going to open a bunch of plotlines about the Doctor and not solve any of them for 5 years....deal?" I thought season long puzzles were bad, but MOST of his puzzles (crack, silence, ect.) run for the entirety of Eleven's tenure...and that's simply ridiculous.

[Coco with marshmallows]

OTOH, a very simple point that's been overlooked.

Someone mentioned upthread the problem with having doctors come back for anniversary specials - they'll have aged too much.

Smith, however, aged in character.

so, say Dr Who is still running in 25 years time - they can get Smith back for the 75th anniversary show by having him get picked up from a scene set in the middle of this episode.

[QuickTidal]

I Am Brian Blessed Not Brent Weeks, on 27 December 2013 - 02:49 PM, said:

OTOH, a very simple point that's been overlooked.

Someone mentioned upthread the problem with having doctors come back for anniversary specials - they'll have aged too much.

Smith, however, aged in character.

so, say Dr Who is still running in 25 years time - they can get Smith back for the 75th anniversary show by having him get picked up from a scene set in the middle of this episode.

Clever, but I'd wager that it's unintended. It will work though, for sure!

[amphibian]

I don't think the moment with Clara and Lem was sexist. The Dr was trying to piss off Lem in a very short time by comparing her less favorably to other people, of whom the closest happened to be a woman.

The sexist stuff is more in the way of how the Dr never arms his companions and usually sends them away from the really dangerous stuff.

[A Demon Llama!]

I liked how everything was kinda tied up and explained, with the silence and the question. I was really interested in how the Doctor will get his new regenerations and the way he got it was kinda boring/lazy. Just a bunch of mist out of a crack? Kinda uneventful, plus he didn't seem very surprised he got another go.

Also what was up with the doctor, silence and cybermen fighting the daleks together? I thought he was being attacked by all of them. Where do these damned daleks keep coming from anyway. Seems like every so often the "last" daleks die and then another group shows up again.

Also, what happened to the storyline where Clara and The Doctor walked into his timestream? Was that ever resolved or mentioned again cause I dont remember.

Is Trenzalore now the state in which we saw it earlier with the Doctors grave? Or is that still in his future?

I'm looking forward to seeing what the new Doctor will be like.

[melonhead]

A Demon Llama!, on 27 December 2013 - 08:30 PM, said:

I liked how everything was kinda tied up and explained, with the silence and the question. I was really interested in how the Doctor will get his new regenerations and the way he got it was kinda boring/lazy. Just a bunch of mist out of a crack? Kinda uneventful, plus he didn't seem very surprised he got another go.

Also what was up with the doctor, silence and cybermen fighting the daleks together? I thought he was being attacked by all of them. Where do these damned daleks keep coming from anyway. Seems like every so often the "last" daleks die and then another group shows up again.

Also, what happened to the storyline where Clara and The Doctor walked into his timestream? Was that ever resolved or mentioned again cause I dont remember.

Is Trenzalore now the state in which we saw it earlier with the Doctors grave? Or is that still in his future?

I'm looking forward to seeing what the new Doctor will be like.

I may be wrong, but I believe it was just the doctor and the silence fighting against everyone else. It was my understanding that the ones who were fighting with him were the ones who had remined loyal to the church. I May be wrong though.
Regarding the timestream storyline, I think Clara walked into the timestream, and the winds of time broke her into millions of copies of herself to combat the attacks by the great intelligence. This saved the doctor, who then jumped into his own timestream to guide clara home. At least I think thats what happened. It was all rather confusing.
Im not to sure about Trenzalore now, is it possible to change that future? or was it just delayed? We could be visiting that place again in the future.
I cant wait for the new doctor to start, I think Capaldi will do a great job.

[McLovin]

Finally watched it. Was not impressed. Coming off the special which I thought was quite decent, this was a gigantic disappointment. Time for Moffat to fuck off.

[QuickTidal]

McLovin, on 30 December 2013 - 02:16 PM, said:

Finally watched it. Was not impressed. Coming off the special which I thought was quite decent, this was a gigantic disappointment. Time for Moffat to fuck off.

Yeah, it was typical Moffat Mess that we've all become accustomed to. Myriad pointless plot strands which only serve to introduce the next bit and never close or resolve.

I'm baffled that anyone can like most of his current work as he can't tell a single narrative to save his life. Well, the 50th mostly worked in that regard, which is why this one fell so flat for me.

The only stuff that I liked more than passingly was the ending. The last 15 minutes with the regeneration, and the cameo and Capaldi's first few minutes.

I'm HOPING against hope that Moffat doesn't fuck up using Capaldi's acting brilliance with muddled storylines.

And ENOUGH about the Doctor himself. This whole introspective narrative thingie Moffat seems obsessed with means we don't actually get episodes with the Doctor dealing with Aliens and such without having it in some way include some revelation/mystery about him or his companions.

It makes me yearn for Classic Who...PYRAMIDS OF MARS or TOMB OF THE CYBERMEN type stuff. It's why I liked Neil Cross's HIDE this season....it was Classic style DW at its finest.

/rant

[Blend]

melonhead, on 27 December 2013 - 10:54 PM, said:

Im not to sure about Trenzalore now, is it possible to change that future? or was it just delayed? We could be visiting that place again in the future.

The Doctor says a few times throughout the episode that he couldn't change his OWN timeline, but the new regeneration cycle came from the Time Lords on Gallifrey, so essentially the Time Lords changed his timeline for him. As I understand it, time should now be rewritten (like in The Impossible Astronaut) and the events that lead to there being a Doctor's grave on Trenzalore will no longer take place. Given The Doctor and Clara are time travellers they will be able to remember it, but no one else should be able to.

I really enjoyed the Christmas special, as far as Christmas specials go.

I thought it was creepy as fuck to watch a Dalek scope come out of the head of one of the Silence. I maintain that The Silence are the most terrifying bad guy I've seen on Doctor Who (with the Weeping Angels coming a very close second). I really enjoyed Tasha Lem and how she very much echoed River Song (and there are arguments to be made that there might be a bit of River Song in her given the Papal Mainframe has the Library's archive in its info-centres) and I really liked the small bit of family time with Clara - the part where her grandma was basically echoing what was going through Clara's head at that time was really eerie and beautiful, and made me think that maybe Clara's grandmother is one of the echoes of Clara from when she stepped into The Doctor's timestream to save him from the Great Intelligence (though the logistics of Clara being her own grandmother are a little weird, it kind of works with the whole 'Impossible Girl' thing).

I really enjoyed when Tasha changed the name of the Church to the Church of Silence - the whole 'Silence will fall!' theme that has run throughout much of Matt Smith's tenure was always really eerie - to see it begin here was pretty awesome. I'm pretty excited to see if the Papal Mainframe will remain a part of Capaldi's tenure.

My biggest irk with the episode was that the Angels that Clara and The Doctor fall among when Tasha first sends them down to Christmas just sort of disappear. We get ONE scene where ONE angel is stuck in front of a mirror that has a message from the Doctor written on it, and that's it!

[QuickTidal]

Blend, on 30 December 2013 - 04:02 PM, said:

melonhead, on 27 December 2013 - 10:54 PM, said:

Im not to sure about Trenzalore now, is it possible to change that future? or was it just delayed? We could be visiting that place again in the future.

The Doctor says a few times throughout the episode that he couldn't change his OWN timeline, but the new regeneration cycle came from the Time Lords on Gallifrey, so essentially the Time Lords changed his timeline for him. As I understand it, time should now be rewritten (like in The Impossible Astronaut) and the events that lead to there being a Doctor's grave on Trenzalore will no longer take place. Given The Doctor and Clara are time travellers they will be able to remember it, but no one else should be able to.

This is how I saw it as well. Most times when the Doctor hits a fixed point, he either changes it and reaps the consequences (WATERS OF MARS), or someone interferes in his timeline and changes it for him, which is allowed (THE IMPOSSIBLE ASTRONAUT...the robot version of him is loaned to him...allowing him to change a part of his timeline without him directly interfering. He's still present at the moment of his "death" but he's tiny, and inside, and can escape while the robot dies.)

[amphibian]

Isn't it possible that the Trenzalore Christmas people put up a grave to honor the guy who apparently blew up himself and the Dalek fleet?

[QuickTidal]

amphibian, on 30 December 2013 - 04:59 PM, said:

Isn't it possible that the Trenzalore Christmas people put up a grave to honor the guy who apparently blew up himself and the Dalek fleet?

No.

The TARDIS grave from THE NAME OF THE DOCTOR was the size of a mountain, and was a result of the TARDIS slowly leaking it's innards (alt unvierse) into this one, creating a humongous TARDIS.

Such a thing would not be buildable, and would not conform to the "rules" that it does (AKA River and the Doctor are the only ones who know his name and can open it).

The real conundrum with making Trenzalore no longer occur as TIME OF THE DOCTOR did, means the TARDIS never remains there and becomes that massive grave...and this also means that the Doctor doesn't die there, and the time stream glowy tree that the Great Intelligence, and then Clara jump INTO to destroy and save him (in that order) isn't there either. So basically, Clara Prime now exists all by herself, and none of her other lives/incarnations happened. It negates both Oswin Oswald in ASYLUM OF THE DALEKS, and Teacher Victorian Clara from THE SNOWMEN entirely, not to mention a BUNCH of the plot points that Moffat spent so long laying out.

It's bad enough that in trying to resolve the Crack, the Silence, and the Church plotlines, and mingle them with Lost Gallifrey he's basically thrown out most of what he did in the last two years...which is baffling to me. He didn't need to jump through all those hoops at all, but his method of storytelling is so full of holes that it's hard to ignore.

All of that is moot though if we are acting on a time splinter style time travel. AKA everything makes a new universe pocket or strand and you never really go back to YOURS....but rather a slightly modified one. Then it makes a little more sense. Like Clara and The Doctor still did all that stuff, but it is now chaff in another universe....?

RTD had plotholes in his stories, but you didn't care because of his attention to character, and story first and foremost.

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 30 December 2013 - 05:24 PM