[Traveller]

Bit of a shame about the flawed ending.

It would have made more sense had the tardis still been unpredictable and broken, but with it being able to pinpoint exact moments, like the return to the party, plus River's wrist gadget, being suddenly 'lost in the past' just didn't convince.

And what about Rorys dad? When is he going to find out?

[Gnaw]

No love for Freema Agyeman in the 'best of the new companions' election? I thought the Martha Jones character was great. Of course, I will admit that it would be hard to be bad beside Tennant. Catherine Tate tried hard imo.

I too liked the Amy/Rory combo, but found my disbelief suspension stretched a bit by the 2000 years spent alone with zero character growth thing. What did Karen and Arthur do to piss off Moffat?? Fixed point in time so you can never be back on the show? That's a tad rough.

[QuickTidal]

So the Daily Mail is reporting:

That not only will David Tennant be back for the 50th Anniversary (either the 10th Doctor or Rose's Human Ten clone)...but that apparently Billie Piper will be back in some capacity as Rose.

The Ten and Rose fan inside me just freaked the hell out.

Having Tennant back in some capacity as the Doctor for the 50th was ALL I wanted out of the Anniversary....but having rose back as well would make me soar.

Add Catherine Tate and I will explode from happiness.

I still maintain the best way to handle the 50ths is have a number of episodes with each concentrating on a previous doctor with a previous companion(s) during their adventures and have it all culminate in them helping out the 11th Doctor for a final episode.

[polishgenius]

Gnaw, on 09 October 2012 - 12:37 AM, said:

No love for Freema Agyeman in the 'best of the new companions' election? I thought the Martha Jones character was great. Of course, I will admit that it would be hard to be bad beside Tennant. Catherine Tate tried hard imo.

The character herself was quite interesting but Freema Agyeman can't act for toffee, resulting in a curious state of affairs where the creators had to work in situations of high drama while giving her as little as possible to do.
The one time they gave her some relatively heavy thesping was in The Doctor's Daughter and she was terrible.

[Sir Thursday]

I find Moffat's version of Doctor Who to be much more enjoyable than RTD's in pretty much every way, so I can't be bothered to compare the two. But if you're looking back to RTD's time at the helm then I would probably agree with Gnaw that Martha was my favourite companion.

Admittedly I haven't re-watched any of the seasons recently, but Season 3 is the one I look back on the most fondly of RTD's run. I could not stand Donna at all. There's a reason the best episode of Season 4 was Midnight, and it's that Donna wasn't in it. The scripts were pretty weak in Season 1 (although I hear good things about Dalek, which is the one episode I don't think I ever saw all of), and with the exception of The Girl in the Fireplace I just couldn't really get into Season 2 - the Cybermen didn't do much for me.

So yes, Season 3 is the one I liked the most. The second half of that season was gold (at least until the Season finale, anyway). How much that was to do with Martha though, I can't say. My memory of her acting is somewhat hazy at this point. I know a lot of people didn't like the way she mooned over the Doctor, but I think I was oblivious to that at the time...

ST

[QuickTidal]

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 10 October 2012 - 01:29 AM

[Gnaw]

QuickTidal, on 09 October 2012 - 11:07 PM, said:

It's a view the Classic Who fan takes because any DOCTOR WHO that causes them to feel an emotion is a bad thing. And Classic Who fans don'tseem to like emotion in their sci-fi. This is most poignantly exemplified to me in the above dismissal of the end of S3 which is IMNSHO where the best stuff happens in that series. The emotion on display in the three-part finale is some of the best in the series, barnone. The final scene between Tennant and John Simm is nothing short of godlike acting...this same emotive thread continuing later on in the END OF TIME giving it further weight.

The first 3 quarters of S3 showcase the least emotion of the whole of Re-launched DW. Further exemplified in the fact that these same classic who fans don't seem to like Rose or Donna...both of whom had a strong emotional connection to the Doctor. Martha just doesn't have that connection. She never did.

I can't speak to the 'classic' DW. Only watched a few eps, none that were connected iirc. I liked Rose but not Donna. But agree with the 'both of whom...emotional connection". And I agree that Martha didn't have that connection. But I think that was purposely done. (Haven't read that book, so you certainly have more info from behind the scenes than I do.)

And "the least emotion of the whole of Re-launched DW"?? I just scanned through a few of those eps. I have to disagree there. But YMMV. Now I've got the bug to re-watch all S3. Or maybe all the Tennant eps. Or maybe all......aw shit.


Edit: (Hah. and you thought nobody saw your 'rant'.)

This post has been edited by Gnaw: 10 October 2012 - 01:47 AM

[Gnaw]

polishgenius, on 09 October 2012 - 10:00 PM, said:

but Freema Agyeman can't act for toffee

If we all liked the same things, the world would be pretty boring. I think she's a good actor.

And she's got the best ass of of all the companions.

*ducks* *runs* *hides*

She does though.

[Coco with marshmallows]

A thought occurs on how to get ALL the previous (still living) Doctors in (Tom Baker, Peter Davidson, Colin Baker, Sylvester McCoy, Paul McGann [shudder - not his fault, more the script, but still], Eccleston and Tennant)

the obvious complaint is that they've all aged considerably.

HOWEVER - courtesy of the angels - if the angels look at an earlier incarnation of the Doctor, he gets zapped back in time to "live out his life" - no access to the tardis, so just stuck in one place getting older......

hey presto, a way to bring them all back regardless of the fact they've aged so much.

[Silencer]

QuickTidal, on 09 October 2012 - 02:31 PM, said:

So the Daily Mail is reporting:

That not only will David Tennant be back for the 50th Anniversary

WHAT WHAT WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAT?!!!?!?!?!??!?!??!?!?!?


I think I just exploded. Repeatedly. TEN! WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!

I'm very nearly at the last couple of eps of this run (NZ is somewhat behind...I'm avoiding spoilers as best I can, but it's honestly been mediocre so far...can you imagine the Gunslinger plotline with the Tenth, though? That would have been...very interesting...glad to see we explored a bit of that history with Eleven but he still didn't convey himself well, imo) but WHO CARES THIS NEWS IS WAY MORE IMPORTANT AND INTERESTING.


/epic Ten fanboy.

Also, nothing will ever beat Ten's departure, emotion-wise. Nothing. (Quite simply because I'm pretty sure Tennant actually managed to put every last ounce of his own emotions over leaving into that performance, and it carried over perfectly.)

[QuickTidal]

Gnaw, on 10 October 2012 - 01:46 AM, said:

Edit: (Hah. and you thought nobody saw your 'rant'.)

LOL, nah, I just edited it because I thought about it ten minutes later and thought it was too ranty and aimed at ST, which was not my intention so I edited it to say nada. You all caught me though.

I really do believe that the two camps about the show really do divide down the "emotions" line. Moffat's Who is very adventury without allowing for a lot of personal, introspective, PTSD Doctor, Time War Survivor to be present. He'll randomly mention it, but never with the weight that he used to. RTD allowed his Doctor to be HUGELY flawed "I'm sorry, I'm so so sorry." and that allowed the companions to have a bigger role in the proceedings. Not only were they helping and growing themselves, but they were helping the Doctor to see when he goes wrong and curb that behaviour. What we see in Moffat's Era are those points being brought up and dismissed. Take the Cowboy episode from S7. Amy tells him "This is what happens when you travel alone for too long"...he acknowledges it only begrudgingly and personally it's not even on par with something similar like Donna showing the Doctor how ruthless he is being with the Racknoss Queen in RUNAWAY BRIDE, or when he tries to save Davros at the end of JOURNEY'S END after all he did. Meanwhile so far in S7 Eleven has let two people blatantly die. Now, the Captain of the Dinosaur ship was a total asshat, but in my head Ten would have taken him an presented him to the Shadow Proclamation or the Judoon for judgement....but Eleven took it upon himself to cast judgement. No one could stop him. Hell, not just Amy, Rory and Brian, but also Nefertiti and the Hunter guy...all there...and no one stops him. It simply wouldn't have happened in RTD's era. Moffat doesn't like emotional Doctor. In fact he's only shown up 3 times. The first of those was Neil Gaiman's stellar THE DOCTOR'S WIFE...and once in LET'S KILL HITLER when he was dying/almost regenerating and the last was in the ANGELS ep when Amy chooses to leave to the past with Rory. In every other instance that might require emotion, he's been somewhat aloof.

I'm with Silencer, I always imagine Ten in the role during Eleven's episodes and wonder how he could have done it differently...and possibly better.

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 10 October 2012 - 01:00 PM

[Kanubis]

His own arc would have been weakened if it hadn't ended when it had though. He was broken (in a wonderfully, brilliantly portrayed way.)

As for how he'd fare... the 11th doctor had to go on the run for a couple of centuries. In Waters of Mars we see that the 10th Doctor can barely cope with his own guilt issues and other introspection after a very short time without a solid companion.

Now, the reality might be a preference for RTD's scripting or Tennant's acting (or even a flat out opinion that they are better than the current ones,) but the inner fanboy finds it a lot more satisfying to see it as 'The current Doctor is what he needs to be.'

I don't know if anything will ever match the sheer emotive power of the fourth season and specials though.

Spoiler

And Donna is still the best companion

[Gnaw]

Silencer, on 10 October 2012 - 12:15 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 09 October 2012 - 02:31 PM, said:

So the Daily Mail is reporting:

That not only will David Tennant be back for the 50th Anniversary

WHAT WHAT WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAT?!!!?!?!?!??!?!??!?!?!?


I think I just exploded. Repeatedly. TEN! WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!



/epic Ten fanboy.

Also, nothing will ever beat Ten.......Nothing.

QuickTidal, on 10 October 2012 - 12:47 PM, said:

I'm with Silencer, I always imagine Ten

Way TMI you two. Or the three of you need to get a room.


On the less manufactured bad joke side of the room:

@QT I agree with you on the lack of emotion thingy. I'm not so certain I agree with you as to the causation. You think it's showrunner/script thing right? After re watching that scene with Amy deciding to go with Rory, I think the emotion thing has a lot more to do with the actor: he's ham-handed, overwrought, melodramatic, and cheesy. I didn't notice the first time through because I was caught up in the storyline. The constipated look on Alex Kingston's face isn't a "oh the poor doctor I must try to relieve his pain". It was "goddamnit, we're going to have to do another take because of this asshat. We wouldn't have let him play a comatose patient on ER."

[QuickTidal]

Gnaw, on 10 October 2012 - 02:35 PM, said:

@QT I agree with you on the lack of emotion thingy. I'm not so certain I agree with you as to the causation. You think it's showrunner/script thing right? After re watching that scene with Amy deciding to go with Rory, I think the emotion thing has a lot more to do with the actor: he's ham-handed, overwrought, melodramatic, and cheesy. I didn't notice the first time through because I was caught up in the storyline. The constipated look on Alex Kingston's face isn't a "oh the poor doctor I must try to relieve his pain". It was "goddamnit, we're going to have to do another take because of this asshat. We wouldn't have let him play a comatose patient on ER."

Interesting. I've not re-watched ANGELS yet so I'll have to do that and weigh back in.

I think you might be right. Though I always found that it was a combination of Showrunner (RTD) allowing him to be what he needs to be and actor (Tennant) hitting home run after home run. I think it definitely shows that Tennant is a FAR superior actor to Smith. I really think that he would have absolutely killed that scene in the cemetery had he been delivering the lines. A good point. I've always been rather on the fence about Smith's Doctor. I like him, and can find enjoyment but I find that it is the quirky delivery that sells it and not really "acting ability" on all cylinders, so you're probably right.

I think the only times I have ever seen Smith deliver lines even in the same ballpark as Tennant skill-wise were in the DOCTOR'S WIFE and last years Christmas special.

[Gnaw]

Briar King, on 11 October 2012 - 01:04 AM, said:

I'm still all about 9 Eccelston as he was my 1st

Eh. Might want to rephrase?

sorry. juvenile sense of humour today.

This post has been edited by Gnaw: 11 October 2012 - 02:35 AM

[Sir Thursday]

QuickTidal, on 10 October 2012 - 12:47 PM, said:

Gnaw, on 10 October 2012 - 01:46 AM, said:

Edit: (Hah. and you thought nobody saw your 'rant'.)

LOL, nah, I just edited it because I thought about it ten minutes later and thought it was too ranty and aimed at ST, which was not my intention so I edited it to say nada. You all caught me though.

I really do believe that the two camps about the show really do divide down the "emotions" line. Moffat's Who is very adventury without allowing for a lot of personal, introspective, PTSD Doctor, Time War Survivor to be present. He'll randomly mention it, but never with the weight that he used to. RTD allowed his Doctor to be HUGELY flawed "I'm sorry, I'm so so sorry." and that allowed the companions to have a bigger role in the proceedings. Not only were they helping and growing themselves, but they were helping the Doctor to see when he goes wrong and curb that behaviour. What we see in Moffat's Era are those points being brought up and dismissed. Take the Cowboy episode from S7. Amy tells him "This is what happens when you travel alone for too long"...he acknowledges it only begrudgingly and personally it's not even on par with something similar like Donna showing the Doctor how ruthless he is being with the Racknoss Queen in RUNAWAY BRIDE, or when he tries to save Davros at the end of JOURNEY'S END after all he did. Meanwhile so far in S7 Eleven has let two people blatantly die. Now, the Captain of the Dinosaur ship was a total asshat, but in my head Ten would have taken him an presented him to the Shadow Proclamation or the Judoon for judgement....but Eleven took it upon himself to cast judgement. No one could stop him. Hell, not just Amy, Rory and Brian, but also Nefertiti and the Hunter guy...all there...and no one stops him. It simply wouldn't have happened in RTD's era. Moffat doesn't like emotional Doctor. In fact he's only shown up 3 times. The first of those was Neil Gaiman's stellar THE DOCTOR'S WIFE...and once in LET'S KILL HITLER when he was dying/almost regenerating and the last was in the ANGELS ep when Amy chooses to leave to the past with Rory. In every other instance that might require emotion, he's been somewhat aloof.

I'm with Silencer, I always imagine Ten in the role during Eleven's episodes and wonder how he could have done it differently...and possibly better.

I like watching emotional growth. But I hate melodrama. And that is what Doctor Who did all too much of under RTD, in my opinion. Emotions such as they were tended to be expressed in bold, 'look at me, this is what I'm feeling!' brush strokes, particularly in Season 4. That was primarily because of Tate, who I did not rate as an actress at all (she only seemed to have two gears - loud and annoying). They ended up externalizing a lot of the conflict that would have been better internalised. I remember Waters of Mars as an example of an episode where they did not do this, to the show's great benefit. Tennant has no foil to argue his grief and rage with, and the result is a much more compelling to watch as he effectively conveys his emotions without the need to scream and yell.

I don't think you can argue that there is 'no emotion' in episodes like The Girl in the Fireplace or Human Nature either, and those are some of my favourites. Particularly the former is notable (at least in my memory of it - bear in mind I have not seen any of these for quite a few years now) for the restrained but nevertheless brilliant reaction that Tennant gave upon realising that he had lost Madame Pompadour forever, which is what tied the whole episode together.

But anyway, I do take your point about the difference between RTD's "Don't travel alone" and Moffat's "Don't travel alone". That Cowboy episode was one of the worst episodes Moffat has done, and I think that's at least in part because the thematic point is something that RTD had already beaten to death already. But while certainly there are fewer times when Moffat's Doctor clearly drops the mask and switches into anger mode, I don't necessarily hold being 'aloof' as devoid of emotion. It's just generally been a subtler TV show in that respect for the past few seasons (as ironic as that sounds given episode titles like Let's Kill Hitler and Dinosaurs in Space), and that's what I prefer.

ST

This post has been edited by Sir Thursday: 11 October 2012 - 10:31 PM

[Primateus]

I have to agree with Sir Thursday somewhat, I think Tennant's Doctor was way too melodramatic. It was like he kept saying sorry over and over again, I remember thinking "not this again, you sound like a broken record"

I like Smith's Doctor better than Tennant's simply because Smith doesn't sound like a broken record.

Oh, and Dinosaurs on a spaceship is the single greatest episode EVER in Who history. I have spoken!

[QuickTidal]

It's official Primateus is smoking crack and it's impairing his judgement.

Because everyone knows that the best ep of DW ever is a toss up between BLINK and MIDNIGHT.

[Primateus]

QuickTidal, on 12 October 2012 - 11:00 AM, said:

It's official Primateus is smoking crack and it's impairing his judgement.

Because everyone knows that the best ep of DW ever is a toss up between BLINK and MIDNIGHT.

Oh yeah? did midnight have dinosaurs? Or spaceships? Didn't think so!

And Blink, while tremendously awesome, has been ruined by later, crappy, episodes with the weeping angels.

All that snow up there in canada must be driving your knickers to twisting.

[Silencer]

@Prim - I don't think those subsequent episodes ruined Blink at all. The Angels as presented in Blink are still awesome, they're just broken because some idiot decided they had to be "more dangerous" in subsequent appearances - and therefore they suffer from villain decay.

As for Ten being a bit of a broken record...I'm gonna agree in general, and then argue that I think that was kinda-sorta part of the point. He WAS broken, because of what he did/saw in the Time War. That was the real tragedy of Ten's doctor; a lot like the ninth, he could flick like a switch from this cheerful, loving character to a thoroughly depressed, "lonely god" with little but contempt for those he faced, and even his friends. And that's why I also disagree that he was a broken record. As someone who has watched the entire run of (Nine and) Ten in a very short time span more than once, there is a LOT less of the "I'm so sorry" stuff than you think. While it was a common and recurring phrase, it was not a constant, and it was often absent for several episodes of less melodramatic fare at a time.

And that was why the flare-ups worked so well as that aspect of Ten.

Eleven has...none of that. Even in the rare cases it does show up, Smith I don't think conveys "barely restrained anger" or "seething rage" or even internal pain very well. He can do a very good "ouch that hurt" look, but he struggles with, dare I say it, making the bigger stuff subtle, and he doesn't express it forcefully enough to go closer to the route of Ten (which would alleviate some of the issues as well, though in a different way than may suit the overall character). In other words, he's stuck in a sort of acting middle-ground, that just doesn't work, imo.

While I personally don't think the issues/themes in that area are overdone, clearly some people do. My main thought with regards to that is then that Moffat should actually drop them, rather than trying to put them in as fan-service to people who liked that part of Ten's Doctor.

Sir Thursday, on 11 October 2012 - 10:30 PM, said:

But anyway, I do take your point about the difference between RTD's "Don't travel alone" and Moffat's "Don't travel alone". That Cowboy episode was one of the worst episodes Moffat has done, and I think that's at least in part because the thematic point is something that RTD had already beaten to death already. But while certainly there are fewer times when Moffat's Doctor clearly drops the mask and switches into anger mode, I don't necessarily hold being 'aloof' as devoid of emotion. It's just generally been a subtler TV show in that respect for the past few seasons (as ironic as that sounds given episode titles like Let's Kill Hitler and Dinosaurs in Space), and that's what I prefer.

ST

Already eaten into some of what I was going to say in response to this quote, but I'll go back over; I don't think Smith conveys the aloofness or the anger "right". He doesn't hit the subtle notes ENOUGH to be called subtle, and neither does he swing the other way ENOUGH even when he perhaps could get away with it to carry the performance in another direction.

While I agree about the brilliance of Waters of Mars - it was an epic episode - and that the Doctor's lack of a foil really let him play with those subtler emotions, if you're going to cite it as an episode lacking melodrama, I think you may need to rewatch it. "It's taken me all these years to realize, that the laws of time are MINE,and they WILL OBEY ME!!" It builds a lot better and more naturally than some of the episodes, but it's still there. And that build-up partially results from its status as a special. More time, more depth. For the most part, the Tenth was never arbitrarily melodramatic. And Tennant has always been a Large Ham, too - if he isn't chewing scenery, something is wrong (or he's giving a rarer, understated performance, in which he is also awesome).



....I now feel the need to rewatch Ten's run. DAMN YOU ALL!