[Blend]

QuickTidal, on 30 December 2013 - 05:21 PM, said:

All of that is moot though if we are acting on a time splinter style time travel. AKA everything makes a new universe pocket or strand and you never really go back to YOURS....but rather a slightly modified one. Then it makes a little more sense. Like Clara and The Doctor still did all that stuff, but it is now chaff in another universe....?

Hasn't it been confirmed in the past though that this is what happens? Like, when Rory gets eaten by the time cracks, Amy doesn't remember him, but because she's a time traveller, she has the ability to remember him and blah blah blah.... Then when they reset stuff, if you think about it, Rory doesn't technically become the Centurion anymore if you look at the time in a linear way instead of the Wibbly Wobbly way, though they all still remember everything that happened. Isn't that how the Doctor erases himself from the memories of everyone in the Universe, though Amy and Rory still remember him? Being a Time Traveller who travels in the TARDIS makes you sort of someone who is outside the timestream so you remember all the crazy timey wimey stuff while everyone else in the universe gets reset and doesn't remember...

[QuickTidal]

Blend, on 30 December 2013 - 06:08 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 30 December 2013 - 05:21 PM, said:

All of that is moot though if we are acting on a time splinter style time travel. AKA everything makes a new universe pocket or strand and you never really go back to YOURS....but rather a slightly modified one. Then it makes a little more sense. Like Clara and The Doctor still did all that stuff, but it is now chaff in another universe....?

Hasn't it been confirmed in the past though that this is what happens? Like, when Rory gets eaten by the time cracks, Amy doesn't remember him, but because she's a time traveller, she has the ability to remember him and blah blah blah.... Then when they reset stuff, if you think about it, Rory doesn't technically become the Centurion anymore if you look at the time in a linear way instead of the Wibbly Wobbly way, though they all still remember everything that happened. Isn't that how the Doctor erases himself from the memories of everyone in the Universe, though Amy and Rory still remember him? Being a Time Traveller who travels in the TARDIS makes you sort of someone who is outside the timestream so you remember all the crazy timey wimey stuff while everyone else in the universe gets reset and doesn't remember...

You're probably right...but it's never been that way under any other showrunner...and sadly Moffat has made a 4th dimensional mess of the timeline for the Eleventh Doctor...because of that.

[tiam]

I liked the addressing of previous plot threads, shoe horned in as they were and agree with whats been said so far.

However isnt the biggest inconsistency the actual regeneration energy itself. It being channelled into blowing up a fleet can be handwaved away as spare energy from a whole new set of regeneration, thus the excess is much greater. No problem.

The whole Silence will fall thing though is now based on the Doctor giving his name through the crack thus confirming to the lost Gallifrey that they should come through to the right universe. The armada above demands that the Doctor not say anything to stop the Timelords coming through thus leading to the stalemate. As QT said upthread the set amount of regeneration thing has been set in stone since ancient times so this new set of 12 is a big deal. However if the Timelords get confirmation from Clara to help the Doctor, and believe this to such an extent that they alter the crack to channel energy and break an ancient rule to save the Doctor, surely they should themselves come through? Its like they confirm that they are in the right place but then conveniently drop a load of energy through to the right world to the correct Doctor then, after coming this far, decide not to go through.

QT?

[QuickTidal]

NoOneExpectsThetiamishInquisition, on 30 December 2013 - 11:23 PM, said:

I liked the addressing of previous plot threads, shoe horned in as they were and agree with whats been said so far.

However isnt the biggest inconsistency the actual regeneration energy itself. It being channelled into blowing up a fleet can be handwaved away as spare energy from a whole new set of regeneration, thus the excess is much greater. No problem.

The whole Silence will fall thing though is now based on the Doctor giving his name through the crack thus confirming to the lost Gallifrey that they should come through to the right universe. The armada above demands that the Doctor not say anything to stop the Timelords coming through thus leading to the stalemate. As QT said upthread the set amount of regeneration thing has been set in stone since ancient times so this new set of 12 is a big deal. However if the Timelords get confirmation from Clara to help the Doctor, and believe this to such an extent that they alter the crack to channel energy and break an ancient rule to save the Doctor, surely they should themselves come through? Its like they confirm that they are in the right place but then conveniently drop a load of energy through to the right world to the correct Doctor then, after coming this far, decide not to go through.

QT?

I'm guessing here...the handwavium for New set of regens/regen energy is weird considering that Eight had to drink an actual potion on Karn to facilitate his War Doctor change....but then again we've never seen the Time Lords GIVE a new set of regenerations before, so the precedent ain't there to call the yellow energy coming through the crack weak. The excess energy being destructive is canon with Nine, Ten and Eleven regenerating so I can buy it...but destroying a whole fleet....ehhh....pushing it.

The Doctor has been a tool of the Time Lords for centuries, and is most sorely used by them at the best of times, so pushing a new set of regens at him through the crack means they can save him, so that down the line he can find and help them get back without the fear of Re-engaging the Time war...something that at the very least the Military war room in Arcadia on Gallifrey will defo not want to re-start. That's how I saw it anyways.

Plus now we get to see Capaldi find them...which should be good fun when he does. I'd imagine he's going to have WORDS with Rassilon! LOL

[amphibian]

Do you guys know where I can get some good info on the Time Lords?

[Werthead]

All you want to know about the Time Lords is here.

[QuickTidal]

Werthead, on 31 December 2013 - 11:09 AM, said:

All you want to know about the Time Lords is here.

Or HERE.

[Werthead]

The TARDIS Wikia is useful, but it does have the (highly questionable) policy of counting everything as canon, right down to the things that have actually been clearly contradicted or retconned out of existence. In the case of Gallifrey, the Time Lords and the Time War this is particularly notable, as two separate ranges of novels, the Big Finish Audios and the TV show all heavily contradict one another about the history of the Time Lords, what happened during the Time War and even the genetics of the Time Lords (according to the novels, Time Lords are infertile and cannot reproduce biologically; the TV show has cheerfully driven a stake through that idea and stuck two fingers up at it).

[QuickTidal]

Canon or not, info about what's appeared in DW media is info about what's appeared in DW media. End of.

[Werthead]

QuickTidal, on 01 January 2014 - 01:36 PM, said:

Canon or not, info about what's appeared in DW media is info about what's appeared in DW media. End of.

True. I was just pointing out that that some of that info is unreliable and inaccurate for someone who wants the clearest information on what is considered canonical at the moment (though of course that can change, with the show's fluid approach to continuity).

This post has been edited by Werthead: 01 January 2014 - 03:13 PM

[amphibian]

Considering that the tv show changes the "rules" regularly on purpose as well as accidentally, there is not much point in declaring every piece of info canon or not, so it sounds better to include as much as possible, then note the reliability.

I was curious to see if the various creators had limited the number of actual Time Lords (the ones with the magic, serious toys and/or political power on Gallifrey). The answer turns out to be "kind of". There's a limited number, but they built in flex for any future eventualities.

[Tiste Simeon]

If I need DW info I just read this thread. Chances are QT has already answered the question and if not will happily do so. It's like having nerd on tap!

[QuickTidal]

Nerd Tap!

[tiam]

QuickTidal, on 30 December 2013 - 11:32 PM, said:

NoOneExpectsThetiamishInquisition, on 30 December 2013 - 11:23 PM, said:

I liked the addressing of previous plot threads, shoe horned in as they were and agree with whats been said so far.

However isnt the biggest inconsistency the actual regeneration energy itself. It being channelled into blowing up a fleet can be handwaved away as spare energy from a whole new set of regeneration, thus the excess is much greater. No problem.

The whole Silence will fall thing though is now based on the Doctor giving his name through the crack thus confirming to the lost Gallifrey that they should come through to the right universe. The armada above demands that the Doctor not say anything to stop the Timelords coming through thus leading to the stalemate. As QT said upthread the set amount of regeneration thing has been set in stone since ancient times so this new set of 12 is a big deal. However if the Timelords get confirmation from Clara to help the Doctor, and believe this to such an extent that they alter the crack to channel energy and break an ancient rule to save the Doctor, surely they should themselves come through? Its like they confirm that they are in the right place but then conveniently drop a load of energy through to the right world to the correct Doctor then, after coming this far, decide not to go through.

QT?

I'm guessing here...the handwavium for New set of regens/regen energy is weird considering that Eight had to drink an actual potion on Karn to facilitate his War Doctor change....but then again we've never seen the Time Lords GIVE a new set of regenerations before, so the precedent ain't there to call the yellow energy coming through the crack weak. The excess energy being destructive is canon with Nine, Ten and Eleven regenerating so I can buy it...but destroying a whole fleet....ehhh....pushing it.

The Doctor has been a tool of the Time Lords for centuries, and is most sorely used by them at the best of times, so pushing a new set of regens at him through the crack means they can save him, so that down the line he can find and help them get back without the fear of Re-engaging the Time war...something that at the very least the Military war room in Arcadia on Gallifrey will defo not want to re-start. That's how I saw it anyways.

Plus now we get to see Capaldi find them...which should be good fun when he does. I'd imagine he's going to have WORDS with Rassilon! LOL

As I said no problem with the ships destruction or anything. I never meant them giving the regens through the rack was weak simply the motivation was questionable.

However your explanation doesnt make too much sense. At first I thought 'ah yes so they can sort of sneak back in and not restart the Time War putting them back in there previous position' like you said but how they act towards that makes no sense. They send out a signal that attracted all beings in all times. They built the Tardis and know every square inch of it so why could they not simply sneak a designated Tardis signal through so the Doctor could turn up and confirm they were in the right place and let them through. Instead they attract all their enemies before the Doctor even gets there guaranteeing conflict and another Time War. Then they get confirmation from Clara appear just above the planet give him regens and then leave, presumably closing the crack.

[QuickTidal]

NoOneExpectsThetiamishInquisition, on 02 January 2014 - 10:51 AM, said:

QuickTidal, on 30 December 2013 - 11:32 PM, said:

NoOneExpectsThetiamishInquisition, on 30 December 2013 - 11:23 PM, said:

I liked the addressing of previous plot threads, shoe horned in as they were and agree with whats been said so far.

However isnt the biggest inconsistency the actual regeneration energy itself. It being channelled into blowing up a fleet can be handwaved away as spare energy from a whole new set of regeneration, thus the excess is much greater. No problem.

The whole Silence will fall thing though is now based on the Doctor giving his name through the crack thus confirming to the lost Gallifrey that they should come through to the right universe. The armada above demands that the Doctor not say anything to stop the Timelords coming through thus leading to the stalemate. As QT said upthread the set amount of regeneration thing has been set in stone since ancient times so this new set of 12 is a big deal. However if the Timelords get confirmation from Clara to help the Doctor, and believe this to such an extent that they alter the crack to channel energy and break an ancient rule to save the Doctor, surely they should themselves come through? Its like they confirm that they are in the right place but then conveniently drop a load of energy through to the right world to the correct Doctor then, after coming this far, decide not to go through.

QT?

I'm guessing here...the handwavium for New set of regens/regen energy is weird considering that Eight had to drink an actual potion on Karn to facilitate his War Doctor change....but then again we've never seen the Time Lords GIVE a new set of regenerations before, so the precedent ain't there to call the yellow energy coming through the crack weak. The excess energy being destructive is canon with Nine, Ten and Eleven regenerating so I can buy it...but destroying a whole fleet....ehhh....pushing it.

The Doctor has been a tool of the Time Lords for centuries, and is most sorely used by them at the best of times, so pushing a new set of regens at him through the crack means they can save him, so that down the line he can find and help them get back without the fear of Re-engaging the Time war...something that at the very least the Military war room in Arcadia on Gallifrey will defo not want to re-start. That's how I saw it anyways.

Plus now we get to see Capaldi find them...which should be good fun when he does. I'd imagine he's going to have WORDS with Rassilon! LOL

As I said no problem with the ships destruction or anything. I never meant them giving the regens through the rack was weak simply the motivation was questionable.

However your explanation doesnt make too much sense. At first I thought 'ah yes so they can sort of sneak back in and not restart the Time War putting them back in there previous position' like you said but how they act towards that makes no sense. They send out a signal that attracted all beings in all times. They built the Tardis and know every square inch of it so why could they not simply sneak a designated Tardis signal through so the Doctor could turn up and confirm they were in the right place and let them through. Instead they attract all their enemies before the Doctor even gets there guaranteeing conflict and another Time War. Then they get confirmation from Clara appear just above the planet give him regens and then leave, presumably closing the crack.

Designated TARDIS signal? Such a thing does not exist.

Anyways, not the cracks (if you recall) are throughout the universe and a result of the Papal Mainframe sect blowing up the TARDIS. It's not in a specific place, and the Time Lords are merely making use of them...it just so happened that one of them was on Trenzalore because they knew that's where he supposedly would die and the best place to pin him down. Everything else juts falls into place after that. They are in an alternate universe...and presumably the only thing they can get through the cracks are vocal stuff. We're being asked to suspend a little disbelief over the ins and outs of it, but there it is.

[tiam]

QuickTidal, on 02 January 2014 - 12:03 PM, said:

NoOneExpectsThetiamishInquisition, on 02 January 2014 - 10:51 AM, said:

QuickTidal, on 30 December 2013 - 11:32 PM, said:

NoOneExpectsThetiamishInquisition, on 30 December 2013 - 11:23 PM, said:

I liked the addressing of previous plot threads, shoe horned in as they were and agree with whats been said so far.

However isnt the biggest inconsistency the actual regeneration energy itself. It being channelled into blowing up a fleet can be handwaved away as spare energy from a whole new set of regeneration, thus the excess is much greater. No problem.

The whole Silence will fall thing though is now based on the Doctor giving his name through the crack thus confirming to the lost Gallifrey that they should come through to the right universe. The armada above demands that the Doctor not say anything to stop the Timelords coming through thus leading to the stalemate. As QT said upthread the set amount of regeneration thing has been set in stone since ancient times so this new set of 12 is a big deal. However if the Timelords get confirmation from Clara to help the Doctor, and believe this to such an extent that they alter the crack to channel energy and break an ancient rule to save the Doctor, surely they should themselves come through? Its like they confirm that they are in the right place but then conveniently drop a load of energy through to the right world to the correct Doctor then, after coming this far, decide not to go through.

QT?

I'm guessing here...the handwavium for New set of regens/regen energy is weird considering that Eight had to drink an actual potion on Karn to facilitate his War Doctor change....but then again we've never seen the Time Lords GIVE a new set of regenerations before, so the precedent ain't there to call the yellow energy coming through the crack weak. The excess energy being destructive is canon with Nine, Ten and Eleven regenerating so I can buy it...but destroying a whole fleet....ehhh....pushing it.

The Doctor has been a tool of the Time Lords for centuries, and is most sorely used by them at the best of times, so pushing a new set of regens at him through the crack means they can save him, so that down the line he can find and help them get back without the fear of Re-engaging the Time war...something that at the very least the Military war room in Arcadia on Gallifrey will defo not want to re-start. That's how I saw it anyways.

Plus now we get to see Capaldi find them...which should be good fun when he does. I'd imagine he's going to have WORDS with Rassilon! LOL

As I said no problem with the ships destruction or anything. I never meant them giving the regens through the rack was weak simply the motivation was questionable.

However your explanation doesnt make too much sense. At first I thought 'ah yes so they can sort of sneak back in and not restart the Time War putting them back in there previous position' like you said but how they act towards that makes no sense. They send out a signal that attracted all beings in all times. They built the Tardis and know every square inch of it so why could they not simply sneak a designated Tardis signal through so the Doctor could turn up and confirm they were in the right place and let them through. Instead they attract all their enemies before the Doctor even gets there guaranteeing conflict and another Time War. Then they get confirmation from Clara appear just above the planet give him regens and then leave, presumably closing the crack.

Designated TARDIS signal? Such a thing does not exist.

Wow really? I would have thought theyd have a way to contact the things theyd built rather than simply calling everyone in the universe, guaranteeing a new war should they suceed, and hoping the Doctor turned up. And if they knew he died at Trenzalore why not simply wait? Why not simply wait until the fixed point when the Doctor died which they must surely have known about.

[QuickTidal]

NoOneExpectsThetiamishInquisition, on 02 January 2014 - 02:36 PM, said:

Wow really? I would have thought theyd have a way to contact the things theyd built rather than simply calling everyone in the universe, guaranteeing a new war should they suceed, and hoping the Doctor turned up. And if they knew he died at Trenzalore why not simply wait? Why not simply wait until the fixed point when the Doctor died which they must surely have known about.

It's funny, but USUALLY in the past when the Time Lords were in our universe if they wanted the Doctor to do something, or come to Gallifrey they would either Time Scoop his TARDIS (catch it in the vortex), or do so by some sort of roudabout way that reruired an agent of some type to find him. Remember that he also STOLE the TARDIS and ran away from his people so he's not exactly going to keep in contact with them in any way. You also have to remember that the TARDISes were designed and constructed by only three people: Rassilon, Omega, and The other (some believe this was the Doctor himself). The chances that anyone on Gallifrey knows the ins and outs of all of them in every way...especially after the Doctor's multiple modifications to his own TARDIS are slim.

I think we have to assume that the amount of things the Time Lords KNOW and "can do stuff about" from a pocket dimension (possibly the one Omega created way back in the day) is very limited. We can't assume that they have the power to do much more than they did in the episode. It's all speculative at this point, but that's how I see it.

And remember this is a typical Moffat-mess episode. Meaning there will by plot holes you can drive a truck through. Only small parts of it will make sense.

[tiam]

QuickTidal, on 02 January 2014 - 04:00 PM, said:

And remember this is a typical Moffat-mess episode. Meaning there will by plot holes you can drive a truck through. Only small parts of it will make sense.

I see I wasnt aware that his tenure was marked by massive plot holes. I havnt watched any of the clara episodes other than the one where he sees her in that Dalek base a while ago and never watched any of that series.

As for the rest your the expert and if your not happy with the plot holes then any I can find must be the more obvious ones.

[QuickTidal]

NoOneExpectsThetiamishInquisition, on 02 January 2014 - 06:46 PM, said:

I see I wasnt aware that his tenure was marked by massive plot holes. I havnt watched any of the clara episodes other than the one where he sees her in that Dalek base a while ago and never watched any of that series.

As for the rest your the expert and if your not happy with the plot holes then any I can find must be the more obvious ones.

Yeah, a significant amount of his work since he became showrunner is plot-hole-arific. Considering how tight his work was under RTD, and his work on SHERLOCK it's sad to see that....but yeah, most of his big event eps don't hold up to scrutiny.

[Coco with marshmallows]

Actually, the doctor being the Other was part of the Cartmel masterplan - before that, there WASN'T an 'Other' - it was Rassilon and Omega only.

Basically he, Aaronovitch and a couple other writers wanted to recreate mystery about the doctor, since we knew so much about him (this is old series btw, not 2005+)

there were a LOT of hanging hints and unresolved plotlines that were laced through the last few series of Dr Who before it got cancelled, all of which were intended to tie into the revelation that the Doctor was WAY older and weirder than everyone thought.