[Gratillonius]

My two questions:


Why Envy and Spite hate each other?


What exactly happened before Mother Dark abandoned the Tiste Andii and why did she do that, what did Rake make, what was this treason Kadaspala speaks of? I really didn't understand this story about the expulsion of the Tiste Andii of their warren.

[D'rek]

Gratillonius, on Dec 29 2008, 03:45 PM, said:

Why Envy and Spite hate each other?

I think Envy is envious of Spite and Spite feels spiteful towards Envy...

No really, it's just a long-standing sisterly rivalry because they're somewhat equal and each wants to be the more powerful sister, and this all stems from poor parenting. See, Dad was always away on business trips (he was a smith specializing in keeping chaos weather from seeping through your gate door into your warren house) and he spent all his vacations away from the family pursuing his hobby of dragon big-game hunting. Mom moved into a new Azath House with an albino fellow and never called home again.

Gratillonius, on Dec 29 2008, 03:45 PM, said:

What exactly happened before Mother Dark abandoned the Tiste Andii and why did she do that, what did Rake make, what was this treason Kadaspala speaks of? I really didn't understand this story about the expulsion of the Tiste Andii of their warren.

It's just more bad parenting... Mother Dark just wasn't doing a good job keeping her thousands of children from fighting in the sandbox (by which I mean civil war in Kurald Galain). The oldest kids, Andarist, Rake and Silchas, did some crazy scheming to stop it all, but this is the start of the the older kids taking charge and perhaps mommy finally has the spare time now to go down the street and shag that golden dude she seems from the window. The equivalent of nine months later and the children of Mommy and new-Daddy are revealed and all the original kids are mad about it so Mommy locks herself in the house and won't talk to anyone (or cook them meals anymore). The kids are also pissed at mommy so they leave and go find foster homes to live in whilst fighting their step-brothers and such...


(I wasn't really planning to go that far with that, but it was fun... Anyway, Kadaspala's thing was with Rake letting his sister die in vain or something. Someone with a better memory will fill you in better, I'm sure)

This post has been edited by D'rek: 29 December 2008 - 09:10 PM

[Ain't_It_Just_]

I reckon MD could hardly complain. If what you say is the bare bones of it, D'rek, then if she knew there was civil war in KG she should have put a stop to it, instead of philandering with FL.

Mind you, perhaps her eldest son disowning himself from her seemed a bit far-fetched.

This post has been edited by Ain't_It_Just_: 30 December 2008 - 03:40 AM

[D'rek]

Well the other possibility, the Udinaas view if you will, is that she was already fiddling with Father Light before the Andii even came about, and that he helped her create the Andii, they just didn't know it. Whether the creation of the Liosan enraged the Andii simply because of the bringing of Light, or because it revealed to them that they had a father could be part of this viewpoint too.

Really though, it's weird how MD turned away. She seemed to deal with the civil wars okay, but then turned away just because her kids, especially the oldest, were mad at her. It's like she couldn't take criticism very well...

I have a private suspicion that maybe the coming of Light wasn't so much the creation of the Liosan but the revealing of their (already long-lived and numerous) existance to the Andii, but either way it makes little difference.

[Ain't_It_Just_]

Hmmm...does that mean the Edur are the youngest of the Tiste?

[Hellian's Keg Lid]

I think it says as much somewhere in Endest's thoughts... Something about taking Andii strength (cant remember) and Liosan piety and the Edur being the savages of the bunch.

[HoosierDaddy]

It was the slaying and drinking of Tiam's blood that forced the rebuking, isn't it?

As for the "Udinaas" view, perhaps because all those "elder forces" were around, Father Light's willing abstaining from being present was his collaborative part?

Edit: Yes, the edur are the youngest. It was only with the conjoining of the Liosan and Andii realms that Emurlahn even became possible.

This post has been edited by HoosierDaddy: 30 December 2008 - 11:59 AM

[Hoods_Balls]

HoosierDaddy, on Dec 30 2008, 05:58 AM, said:

It was the slaying and drinking of Tiam's blood that forced the rebuking, isn't it?

As for the "Udinaas" view, perhaps because all those "elder forces" were around, Father Light's willing abstaining from being present was his collaborative part?

Edit: Yes, the edur are the youngest. It was only with the conjoining of the Liosan and Andii realms that Emurlahn even became possible.

Yes, Drinking Tiams blood/embracing chaos is what turned mother dark away, it was the betrayal of the Andii/but this was brought on by the Andii's discovery of the Liosan's.

[Ain't_It_Just_]

I wonder what would have happened if the Liosan hadn't been discovered until later.

Makes you think...

"Father Light strides in"

Andii: MOM?! WHO'S HE?
MD: Um...kids, this is-
FL: Shut up, bitch. Alright you little punks, make room for my kids. And there better not be any trouble.

"Liosan stride in"

Andii: I hate you.
Liosan: You smell.

[Onos]

Hoods_Balls, on Dec 30 2008, 02:53 PM, said:

HoosierDaddy, on Dec 30 2008, 05:58 AM, said:

It was the slaying and drinking of Tiam's blood that forced the rebuking, isn't it?

As for the "Udinaas" view, perhaps because all those "elder forces" were around, Father Light's willing abstaining from being present was his collaborative part?

Edit: Yes, the edur are the youngest. It was only with the conjoining of the Liosan and Andii realms that Emurlahn even became possible.

Yes, Drinking Tiams blood/embracing chaos is what turned mother dark away, it was the betrayal of the Andii/but this was brought on by the Andii's discovery of the Liosan's.

Rake goes to confront MD along with Endest. Rake says i have stopped the civil war, but MD doesnt seem thrilled. Then she says, you arent the only ones any more to make it seem like Rake isnt as smart as he thinks he is. Then he responds, well, while you have been creating others i was already preparing for that. (the Andii need more power to survive in the universe) MD says, oh no, what have you done.... and turns away from the Andii due to the Tiam blood drinking.

Where i still get a little confused was that the Andii already seemed a mess at that point and they were already going crazy since MD left them to hang out with FL. So they were missing her, THEN she totally withdrew from them. OR there was civil war and only then she withdrew from them. Possibly the Endest POVs confused me by not being in the correct order.

[bhok'arala]

Gratillonius, on Dec 29 2008, 02:45 PM, said:

My two questions:


Why Envy and Spite hate each other?


What exactly happened before Mother Dark abandoned the Tiste Andii and why did she do that, what did Rake make, what was this treason Kadaspala speaks of? I really didn't understand this story about the expulsion of the Tiste Andii of their warren.

I think Envy and Spite don't like each other because as stated earlier their competitiveness, or it could be from some past event not yet gleaned such as how Annomander doesn't like Kallor.

The betrayal between Mothe Dark and Annomander is very complex. (this won't make much sense by the way, and is just my take on it) Mother Dark lived with the Andii in darkness and all was fine. Mother dark then brought to life Light which the andii saw as betrayal. now there were Liosan and Andii. some andii like annomander left. this betrayal caused Mother dark to turn them away as they turned her away. the andii that were left either died out or became the edur because with dark and light, there will always be shadow, unless one greatly overpowers the other. besides, i'm not quite sure how the edur came to be since their patron seems to be mother dark and not father light suggesting that they lean towards andii ideals more so than liosan

[Ain't_It_Just_]

The Edur don't even seem to acknowledge the presence of MD and FL, and instead venerate the Three Sisters and Scabby.

[Seguleh 1st]

envy is indeed envious, because it is said in TtH that spite was a little bit better in everything. a bit more pretty, a bit better a magician ...

[Soulessdreamer]

I got the impression that MD had already turned away because the Andii had raped and destroyed the land and forests buliding the first city, and then degenirated into civil war to control the warren/plane.

As to Spite and Envy TtH intimates that Draconis set the two to waring against each other (possibly for his affection) as a means to control them and stop them from uniting and turning on the world/him/someone else?

TTFN

[Aptorian]

Spite loved her father. Envy loved Rake. Envy betrayed Draconus, either through some trickery or by simply standing by in Draconus fight against Rake when her father needed her.

That's more than enough reason for them to hate each other.

[amphibian]

Soulessdreamer, on Jan 8 2009, 12:48 PM, said:

I got the impression that MD had already turned away because the Andii had raped and destroyed the land and forests buliding the first city, and then degenirated into civil war to control the warren/plane.

Endest Silann's POVs strongly suggested that the tipping point in the MD/Andii relationship was Anomander's slaying of Tiam and subsequent hunting/chaining of other dragons. Whether that was a result or cause of the civil war remains to be seen.

[D'rek]

amphibian, on Jan 8 2009, 05:10 PM, said:

Soulessdreamer, on Jan 8 2009, 12:48 PM, said:

I got the impression that MD had already turned away because the Andii had raped and destroyed the land and forests buliding the first city, and then degenirated into civil war to control the warren/plane.

Endest Silann's POVs strongly suggested that the tipping point in the MD/Andii relationship was Anomander's slaying of Tiam and subsequent hunting/chaining of other dragons. Whether that was a result or cause of the civil war remains to be seen.

Based on Rake talking to MD, yes. However, there is no mention of Rake being scaly when he makes super-secret plans with his brothers...

[amphibian]

D'rek, on Jan 8 2009, 05:45 PM, said:

amphibian, on Jan 8 2009, 05:10 PM, said:

Endest Silann's POVs strongly suggested that the tipping point in the MD/Andii relationship was Anomander's slaying of Tiam and subsequent hunting/chaining of other dragons. Whether that was a result or cause of the civil war remains to be seen.

Based on Rake talking to MD, yes. However, there is no mention of Rake being scaly when he makes super-secret plans with his brothers...

Plans so secret that they had a witness from the Temple present for posterity.

I'm not sure if Anomander was Soletaken before, or after, the death of Tiam, but he does kills Tiam before MD turns away. Even though that happens, he continues to hunt down other dragons, chains a few in Shadow and closes off Starvald Demelain with the help of Kilmandaros. What I was talking about was whether Tiam's death precipitated the civil war, was a result of it (to prevent other Andii from becoming draconean) or was a coincidence.

[D'rek]

amphibian, on Jan 8 2009, 05:56 PM, said:

D'rek, on Jan 8 2009, 05:45 PM, said:

amphibian, on Jan 8 2009, 05:10 PM, said:

Endest Silann's POVs strongly suggested that the tipping point in the MD/Andii relationship was Anomander's slaying of Tiam and subsequent hunting/chaining of other dragons. Whether that was a result or cause of the civil war remains to be seen.

Based on Rake talking to MD, yes. However, there is no mention of Rake being scaly when he makes super-secret plans with his brothers...

Plans so secret that they had a witness from the Temple present for posterity.

I'm not sure if Anomander was Soletaken before, or after, the death of Tiam, but he does kills Tiam before MD turns away. Even though that happens, he continues to hunt down other dragons, chains a few in Shadow and closes off Starvald Demelain with the help of Kilmandaros. What I was talking about was whether Tiam's death precipitated the civil war, was a result of it (to prevent other Andii from becoming draconean) or was a coincidence.

Ah. Well the secret plans they're making seem to me to indicate that the civil war is alreadyunderway (though it might have a long ways to go yet anyway). And I would assume that Rake becoming Soletaken occurs at very close to the same time as the death of Tiam, as drinking her blood after is supposedly (one of) the mechanism(s) for becoming Soletaken. And following that event his arms become scaly, as seen when he talks to MD.

Maybe the super-secret plans the 3 brothers were making were for Andarist and Silchas to keep everything as calm as possible while Rake went and slew Tiam with his 4 (or more, I suppose) most trusted followers and return overwhelmingly strong to stop the civil war...

[Andirak]

Aptorian, on Jan 8 2009, 04:47 PM, said:

Spite loved her father. Envy loved Rake. Envy betrayed Draconus, either through some trickery or by simply standing by in Draconus fight against Rake when her father needed her.

That's more than enough reason for them to hate each other.

You would think, as an Elder God, Draconus would be able to handle Rake by himself without help from his daughters...
But yes, Rake did say that Envy stood by and watched the fight without doing anything, so that's enough for Spite.