[Xardean]

Not much is known about Tiam that is clear, however i do think that if Tiam was something it would be a D'ivers. However the Dragons in these books seem to me as some of the oldest things, period. Now unknowing weather or not they date back to Ereko's people or not, which im sure they do, would date them before Andii, which im sure they do. Point is are Dragons, err Elient the first species? next to elder gods? if so then if Tiam was D'ivers, is it possible that the ritual is alot older than it appears to be? That would be assuming Tiam is one of the first dragons, but i believe she IS the first. I like that theory.

[HoosierDaddy]

Tiam is not a d'ivers. I'm pretty sure Hetan has it right on this one. If her mere blood is powerful enough to create soletaken-eleint, it is unsurprising that she doesn't really "die." And yes, the eleint seem to be the oldest "creatures" outside the elder-gods. Thel Akai aren't really that old, Wu is a younger realm than the various Tistean ones.

[Aptorian]

All soletaken blood makes soletaken I think. The Hounds blood made Paran soletaken.

Soletaken is like a desease you can contract. Through a bite, blood transfer, what ever... at least that's the understanding we get from DG.

As for Dragons. I don't think they necissarily are the oldest creatures, I don't even think they are from Wu. From what we see in DG where a flight of dragons are inside the Azath and dive through one of the tiles, Dragons probably exist in every world in existance. They are after all semi-elemental magical beings.

[HoosierDaddy]

I never meant to say that the dragons were from Wu, thus the Thel Akai statement Apt. However, if they aren't the oldest, outside the elder-gods, then what entities are? Your statement of them being "semi-elemental beings" only reinforces their age.

I disagee with the "all soletaken blood makes soletaken" argument. What the hell would be the point of the ritual then, if all the soletaken were all vampires or werewolves?

As to Paran, Ascendent blood is, in my opinion, different.

[Aptorian]

I'm guessing you're talking about the D'ivers ritual in the First Empire?

That was an accident. At the time the first empire had lots of soletaken as it was an alternative to ascending, and it was a more earthly transformation.

The D'ivers ritual was probably an experiment to see if you could turn a lot of people into soletaken in one go and thus create powerfull armies. Just a theory.

[HoosierDaddy]

Aptorian, on Jan 13 2009, 03:29 AM, said:

I'm guessing you're talking about the D'ivers ritual in the First Empire?

That was an accident. At the time the first empire had lots of soletaken as it was an alternative to ascending, and it was a more earthly transformation.

The D'ivers ritual was probably an experiment to see if you could turn a lot of people into soletaken in one go and thus create powerfull armies. Just a theory.

1. Yes, the soletaken route was an "alternative" to ascending. Where does the "more earthly transformation" come from, I don't recall that language?
2. The speculation that the "d'ivers ritual" as an experiment went wrong is entertaining. Soletaken use Emurlahn. Also, the creation of soletaken, which is a Emurlahn based ritual (can't quote, know is true), was common-placed in the HFE. However, the Sundering of Emurlahn, or the notice Sole-taken users that multiple warrens of the same warren with which they transformed was available could have possibly have tempted them into trying to "soletake" in multiple versions of Emurlahn which would have driven them appropraitely crazy given that differing realms of Emurlahn have differing rules. Resulting in multiple soletaken, i.e. d'ivers.

Anyways, the ritual I was talking about was the "sole-taken" ritual. D'ivers are an unattended offspring, not merely a "vampiric" effect of a soletaken ritual.

Edit: My point, hopefully less drunkardly represented here is that the First Empire's soletaken ritual was set. However, we know from MT that differing versions of Emurlahn have differing capabilities... It is my assumption that somewhere alonf the lines the FE learned about these Emurlhan bubbles outside of 7C and attempted to recreate the soletaken rituals there, which resulted in mass-chaos and death.

This post has been edited by HoosierDaddy: 13 January 2009 - 09:03 AM

[Aptorian]

Soletaken don't use Emurhlan. The first empire scientists (or what ever we should call them) used a fragment of shadow because it was available. It doesn't mean that emurlan makes soletaken or that only emurhlan can create them or that is the only warren soletaken use.

What is this stuff from MT you talk about? Shadow having different properties depending upon the fragment or place. That doesn't sound right.

[Bauchelain the Evil]

I'm sorry Aptorian but in DG Kulp states pretty clearly to Felisin that a bite doesn't turn you in a Soletaken/D'ivers but can simply turn the bitten mad.

[Aptorian]

Really? Can you remember the rest of the conversation then because I'm sure he talks about people getting infected.

[Bauchelain the Evil]

Sure.
Felisin says that she heard that a bite can make you a shapeshifter.
Kulp says that a bite turns you mad but doesn't makes you a shspeshifter.
Felisin asks then how are shapeshifters made.
Kulp answers that they are simply born like that(of course the Eleint Soletaken are clearly an exception)

[Aptorian]

Hmm. Interesting. Damn it's been too long since my last reread.

[Sinisdar Toste]

of course its probable that kulps opinion of the origin of soletaken is not as educated as that of treach, or a bonecaster. in fact if onrack is to be believed, bonecasters are chosen from among the regular imass and become soletaken through training, pointing out clearly, alongside the soletaken eleint, that not all soletaken are born. i wouldn't take kulp as a reliable source about soletaken except on the effects of their bite on humans.

[Xardean]

Are you sure Kulp said they were born? I thought he stated more along the lines of created.

[Tattersail_]

During the Whirlwind Rebellion, Ryllandaras was encountered by Mappo Runt and Icarium, and again later by Karsa Orlong. Both times he took the form of desert wolves, six with Mappo and Icarium, over a dozen with Karsa. Unlike most First Empire shapeshifters, Ryllandaras demonstrated at these times the ability to communicate telepathically, possibly a sign of greater mental stability.

[Roldom]

hetan said

There has never been any evidence put forward to suppose that Tiam is a D'ivers, or that any of the eleint are D'ivers, so I would say that's a huge NO.

i agree that Taim proberly isnt a divers, but isnt telorast and curdle supposed to be dragon divers? been a while since i read DoD but when those too met up with Olar im sure she mentioned something about them being divers and that no one else had ever been able to do it, somthing about elient blood being resistent to the divers abaility

[Bauchelain the Evil]

No, Olar Ethil believed they were D'ivers but in truth they are more an inverse Soletaken. They are two dragons whose soul Dessimbelackis linked to a Tiste Andii in the hope that in the Tist form they could escape Shadow. It didn't work.

[Silk]

and telorast and Curdle are not exactly paying with a full deck either