[Aptorian]

So, Tiam supposedly dies and ressurects again and again.

What if she was a Dragon D'ivers? Maybe that's why she can be killed again and again. It's only one part of her.

You know, like Ho and Ryllandaras...

[Traveller]

Are there any threads with all the info on Tiam all in one place? It all seems very scant and spread out throughout the books; a good list of collected quotes might help with that...

If Tiam was a D'ivers, then it might be possible that there is a seperated element still alive somewhere.

This post has been edited by Traveller: 23 December 2008 - 11:18 AM

[Aptorian]

wiki is your friend

[Tapper]

Weren't Divers a direct result from a ritual gone wrong from the First Empire?

I think Tiam is the avatar of the cycle of life. The rebirth thingie is not all that different from the Phoenix, which has features in quite a few mythologies in some form or another... Egyptian, Greek, Roman, Persian, Chinese and Japanese mythology and art all has phoenixes, albeit with varying functions.

If chaos shapes possibility and SD is the first warren to mix a bit of order and a lot of chaos, then weird things are bound to happen. Like FL is probably the carrier of Light and MD of KG and Darkness in general, Tiam could be the carrier of SD and thus, of chance, possibility and development. It might be that she simply can't stay dead.

This post has been edited by Tapper: 23 December 2008 - 12:31 PM

[Traveller]

In regards to the D'ivers - a ritual was involved, but I don't think it was one that went wrong, it was more of a ritual performed on purpose by mages in order to turn themselves into D'ivers.

This post has been edited by Traveller: 23 December 2008 - 12:43 PM

[Hetan]

There has never been any evidence put forward to suppose that Tiam is a D'ivers, or that any of the eleint are D'ivers, so I would say that's a huge NO.

Her ability to resurrect may be her particular "aspect", in the same way that other eleint are aspected or as Tapper has said - rebirth perhaps.

@ Traveller - With regards to the rituals - we know the ritual went wrong, both for soletaken and d'ivers as Heboric tells us as much.

[Traveller]

I was going more on what Su says to Ho in RCG.

'I smell the old ritual on you magus. The forbidden one. How did you manage it? Everyone thinks it lost.'

I took that to mean he did it on purpose, at least there's no hint that anything went wrong, unless the 'madness' was the main side effect.

This post has been edited by Traveller: 23 December 2008 - 01:09 PM

[Hetan]

For those that undertook the ritual, madness and death was the result, read Deadhouse Gates for information.

[Blend]

 Hetan, on Dec 23 2008, 01:24 PM, said:

For those that undertook the ritual, madness and death was the result, read Deadhouse Gates for information.

Not to mention that Ho himself says as much... I mean, he made himself into a Human D'Ivers (I'd still like to know wtf happened to the other three parts of himself when the fighting started in RCG) then his three other forms sent him off to Otataral Island. Little effed up and crazy, don't you think?

[Traveller]

Ho isn't mad though. His other, separate twins might be, but Ho is clearly supressing his powers.
When Su suggests he stop what's going on with Yath and the CG as he is powerful enough to, he refuses as he knows that madness comes with the power.

He is one of a human d'ivers, who undertook a ritual, and he is clearly not dead or mad.

[Blend]

 Traveller, on Dec 23 2008, 06:12 PM, said:

Ho isn't mad though. His other, separate twins might be, but Ho is clearly supressing his powers.
When Su suggests he stop what's going on with Yath and the CG as he is powerful enough to, he refuses as he knows that madness comes with the power.

He is one of a human d'ivers, who undertook a ritual, and he is clearly not dead or mad.

Well, the way I see it is that a D'Ivers is many that think as one. This is evident with Awl and co... So, if Ho is separate and not part of them, he'd be like a split personality, no? That's fairly mad.

[T'renn]

It certainly is odd

[D'rek]

Yeah, "regular" D'ivers should still all be one person, like Gryllen or Ryllandaras or such. Of course, if a D'ivers goes crazy and gets a bit of schizophrenia going on, they could start associating different entities of themselves with different personalities or some batshit crazy stuff like that.

And of course, there's always exceptions, like Dejim Nebrahl, but he was created by seven Trohlbarahl merging their souls into one to create a D'ivers Trohlbarahal, so he is in some ways seven distinct-but-united entities (makes you wonder what'd happen if he had made an eighth body).

[amphibian]

 D'rek, on Dec 29 2008, 12:43 PM, said:

Yeah, "regular" D'ivers should still all be one person, like Gryllen or Ryllandaras or such. Of course, if a D'ivers goes crazy and gets a bit of schizophrenia going on, they could start associating different entities of themselves with different personalities or some batshit crazy stuff like that.

And of course, there's always exceptions, like Dejim Nebrahl, but he was created by seven Trohlbarahl merging their souls into one to create a D'ivers Trohlbarahal, so he is in some ways seven distinct-but-united entities (makes you wonder what'd happen if he had made an eighth body).

He might have been able to create new bodies if he fed enough. Man, did Dejim get owned...

[Sinisdar Toste]

dejim relishes the thought of feeding enough to maybe even spawn an eigth. and in his vision of his empire im sure he would have spawned enough 'kin' to garrison a palace.

[D'rek]

Nono, I meant as in, with seven Trohlbarahl placing their souls in him, each one of him had one of those souls. When he made an eighth, would it be different from the first seven by not having one of the dead Troholbarahl's soul in it, or would each piece have 7/8ths of a soul, or what-have-you...

[amphibian]

 D'rek, on Dec 29 2008, 11:33 PM, said:

Nono, I meant as in, with seven Trohlbarahl placing their souls in him, each one of him had one of those souls. When he made an eighth, would it be different from the first seven by not having one of the dead Troholbarahl's soul in it, or would each piece have 7/8ths of a soul, or what-have-you...

The soul would MOST CERTAINLY, DEFINITELY, HAS TO grow to fill all containers. (total speculation)

[Traveller]

 Blend, on Dec 23 2008, 06:42 PM, said:

 Traveller, on Dec 23 2008, 06:12 PM, said:

Ho isn't mad though. His other, separate twins might be, but Ho is clearly supressing his powers.
When Su suggests he stop what's going on with Yath and the CG as he is powerful enough to, he refuses as he knows that madness comes with the power.

He is one of a human d'ivers, who undertook a ritual, and he is clearly not dead or mad.

Well, the way I see it is that a D'Ivers is many that think as one. This is evident with Awl and co... So, if Ho is separate and not part of them, he'd be like a split personality, no? That's fairly mad.

I thought that too, but there are two examples in RCG that appear to contradict it. Ho appears
relatively sane in the mines, whereas his twins all talk/think at the same time, indicating that they are all of the same mind, but separate from Ho.

The Ryllanderas that Karsa meets also seems clever, articulate, and in no way resembles the single entity (man-jackal) locked below Heng for years.

It looks to me from that like if a D'ivers becomes separated from it's twins, it grows independently of the group. Possibly more likely the more there are, as the original 'mind' is spread around more. If one of Gryllens rats was taken to the other side of the world for years, would it still think like Gryllen?

Both Ryllanderas and Ho have been separated from their twins by oceans/continents, for a long periods of time, which might explain it. The only difference is that while Ho seems sane compared to his twins, the 'man-jackal' is completely insane, while his twins in seven cities seem to have developed more.

This post has been edited by Traveller: 30 December 2008 - 08:31 AM

[Ain't_It_Just_]

I very much doubt it...D'ivers and Soletaken are all mad. Tiam sounds reasonably sound of mind, if she was going to spawn all those children and stuff.

[Aptorian]

D'ivers and soletaken are not all mad, silly AIJ.

Most D'ivers are though since they mainly stem from the failed ritual in the first empire.