[Slum]

Ah, yes, the helpful old bard/storyteller guy. I remember now...duh. The name just wasn't ringing any bells.

Thanks for the link - it''ll definitely come in handy.

[Terez]

If you need it again when the time comes, just ask.

[detritus]

I hate to say it, but I almost hope BS writes a crap ending for the book. I dug mistborn alot and enjoy his writing, so if he does write an ending that everyone thinks is amazing then I'll have to read it. And if I have to read it then I have to read the other WoT books. I never could make it through book 4, but I'd slog through it and the others just to read BS's book (or books). Stupid of me I know, but thats just how I can be from time to time.

[MecnunK]

mandog, on Jan 6 2009, 06:10 PM, said:

I hate to say it, but I almost hope BS writes a crap ending for the book. I dug mistborn alot and enjoy his writing, so if he does write an ending that everyone thinks is amazing then I'll have to read it. And if I have to read it then I have to read the other WoT books. I never could make it through book 4, but I'd slog through it and the others just to read BS's book (or books). Stupid of me I know, but thats just how I can be from time to time.

If you couldnt make it through book 4 which is pretty decent IMO compared with latter helpings, you will know what pain is when you read 7, 8 ,9 and 10

[MecnunK]

Terez, on Jan 6 2009, 12:16 AM, said:

Spoiler

Rand doesn't need to get rid of Lews Therin - he just needs to realize that Lews Therin died and was reborn and is called Rand now. Then he can stop being a pussy and suppressing all of his Lews Therin memories, and stop pretending that his inner voice that everyone has is actually another dude that is actually talking to him.

Spoiler

There are definently 2 distinct personalities in Rand since we have documented conversations between the two as well, LTT having taken over Rand's body at times and trying on other occasions to unsuccessfully grab the source. I favour the integration of the 2 personalities theories over time.

[Yellow]

Tuon does my head in, always has. Not just because she's a complete bitch, but also because Jordan told us about four lines into the first book that Mat would marry her... and seventeen books later, she's just about coming round to the fact that he's not that bad.

WE FUCKING GET IT.

Also, Cadsuane would have been much better if Jordan hadn't had her sat around doing nothing for about three books. Nob.

I will read the last book(s), and hopefully enjoy it/them... but I don't think I'll ever re-read this series. It was predictable enough the first time round.

[Terez]

MecnunK, on Jan 6 2009, 05:59 PM, said:

Spoiler

There are definently 2 distinct personalities in Rand since we have documented conversations between the two as well

We have documented conversations between Nynaeve and herself. What's your point?

Mecnunk said:

Spoiler

LTT having taken over Rand's body at times and trying on other occasions to unsuccessfully grab the source.

It's all in how you interpret those scenes. Pick one, and we'll discuss it.

[Camel]

Briar King, on Jan 7 2009, 09:17 AM, said:

What is the actual difference between the Power men and women channel VS. the Source.

Two sides of the same coin. The Power men and women channel are the two halves of the Source.

The Source comes from... well, we assume it comes from the Creator or the Wheel or the Pattern or something. The True Power that the bad guys can channel comes from the Dark One and is a completely separate power source from the one that the good guys channel.

[Pallol One Eye]

Interesting Point about the True Power. I have no answer, just more questions.

Is it just the other side of the the Source - The Dark Side (LOL), of equal strength but diffferent attributes. And does that make the Dark one the creators alter ego, evil twin brother, split personality or whatever. All sorts of questions.

Does that make what is on the other side of the Bore another complete world and the Dark One is an invader, or is it really just a prison.

At some point in the Turning of the wheel the Dark one must have been completely free, or outside of the wheel (Much like Maugrim in Fionavar tapestry, or the Despiser in Covenant trapped by the Arch of Time). Perhaps there's an allegory to the biblical conflict in heaven and Lucifer being cast out.

Perhaps a lot of RJ's notes that Brandon Sanderson has access to in working on AMOL could answer these questions.

Enough rambling I have a meeting to go to at work

[Camel]

Pallol One Eye, on Jan 7 2009, 10:22 AM, said:

Interesting Point about the True Power. I have no answer, just more questions.

Is it just the other side of the the Source - The Dark Side (LOL), of equal strength but diffferent attributes. And does that make the Dark one the creators alter ego, evil twin brother, split personality or whatever. All sorts of questions.

Does that make what is on the other side of the Bore another complete world and the Dark One is an invader, or is it really just a prison.

At some point in the Turning of the wheel the Dark one must have been completely free, or outside of the wheel (Much like Maugrim in Fionavar tapestry, or the Despiser in Covenant trapped by the Arch of Time). Perhaps there's an allegory to the biblical conflict in heaven and Lucifer being cast out.

Perhaps a lot of RJ's notes that Brandon Sanderson has access to in working on AMOL could answer these questions.

Enough rambling I have a meeting to go to at work

According to the mythology of the Wheel of Time (which is never challenged by any characters, simply accepted as fact, as sure as gravity), the Dark One was imprisoned at the moment of Creation by the Creator. The Wheel didn't exist until Creation, so the DO has always been "outside the wheel" but imprisoned and unable to touch the Pattern. I'm not familiar with the so-called biblical conflict of the casting out of Lucifer and what not, so I can't draw any parallels between the two.

The Bore is simply a thinness in the pattern through which the Dark One is able to influence the world. It is not a complete world on the other side, it's a prison. A jail cell, if you will, with the Bore being that little slit where they slip food to you every now and again, and every once in awhile you can see out at what's going on outside your cell and maybe even interact with other people outside there for a brief moment.

[MecnunK]

Terez, on Jan 7 2009, 02:10 PM, said:

MecnunK, on Jan 6 2009, 05:59 PM, said:

Spoiler

There are definently 2 distinct personalities in Rand since we have documented conversations between the two as well

We have documented conversations between Nynaeve and herself. What's your point?

now now, lets not be facetious, nyn talking to her or grumbling to herself is not the same as Rand talking to LTT in his head. rehtorical mumblings or verbalistaion aloud of thoughts vs actual converstaions with another personality.. Nyn doesnt hear voices in her head..

Mecnunk said:

Spoiler

LTT having taken over Rand's body at times and trying on other occasions to unsuccessfully grab the source.

It's all in how you interpret those scenes. Pick one, and we'll discuss it.

Spoiler

yes well it is not the Torah or the Quran we are trying to interpret, but you must definently recall LTT trying to grab hold of the source and losing mostly, winning on one occasion and also instructing Rand in how to break the shield at Dumai Wells. Two distinct personalities are within Rand. Sorry I cant remember one exact scene but Rand once remembers some sort of fruit gardens and then realises that is not his memory. the fact also that Rand can mute him to somee degree all points to this. It is snot him but an integration between the two should be happeneing

This post has been edited by MecnunK: 07 January 2009 - 06:06 PM

[Terez]

Mecunk said:

Spoiler

yes well it is not the Torah or the Quran we are trying to interpret, but you must definently recall LTT trying to grab hold of the source and losing mostly, winning on one occasion and also instructing Rand in how to break the shield at Dumai Wells. Two distinct personalities are within Rand. Sorry I cant remember one exact scene but Rand once remembers some sort of fruit gardens and then realises that is not his memory. the fact also that Rand can mute him to somee degree all points to this. It is snot him but an integration between the two should be happeneing

I think you are misunderstanding what I am saying. It's understandable - I argued with a guy on this theory for a year before I realized that I actually agreed with him. In any case, I hate spoiler tags, so I'm going to start a new thread for this one (as it's pretty much off topic anyway, and my post will be long).

[Terez]

By the way, while I'm working on this new thread, let me just clear one thing up:

Mecunk said:

Spoiler

There are definently 2 distinct personalities in Rand since we have documented conversations between the two as well, LTT having taken over Rand's body at times and trying on other occasions to unsuccessfully grab the source. I favour the integration of the 2 personalities theories over time.

Spoiler

I agree that there will be an integration that will solve the problem. I just believe that the integration will be achieved by Rand coming to peace with the fact that he's Lews Therin reborn, and ceasing to suppress the memories. But I believe that Rand's mind is at war with itself, rather than with Lews Therin.

[Cougar]

How many times do I need to say it: read the rules at the top of the forum.

There is no need to spoiler things in this thread, it says spoilers in great letters at the top of the thread, meaning spoilers up to the latest book, if you want it expanding to that then do it.

I have to say that for the longest time maybe as much as 8 years I have been squarely in Terez's corner on Lews Therin/Rands personality. The fact that they behave as seperate personalities maybe Rands way of dealing with the additionl memories of his past life.

I'm sure in the Knife of Dreams Semirahge says to Rand at the end that the intusion of past lives into the male channelers mind is a known symptom of the madness associated with the taint and no I'm not looking up the quote, she of course could be bullshitting but I don't see what her motive would be to do this.

[Terez]

Cougar said:

I have to say that for the longest time maybe as much as 8 years I have been squarely in Terez's corner on Lews Therin/Rands personality. The fact that they behave as seperate personalities maybe Rands way of dealing with the additionl memories of his past life.

Yay, a preemptive supporter! I still feel like I should start a new thread though, just because I'm putting so much effort into the post. It won't be a quickie like the Moiraine one was...

And yeah, the theory has been around forever, in one form or another. I could just steal stuff I've written on the subject before, but every time I make the argument, I try to make it better than I made it the last time, in hopes of convincing more people, so I always start from scratch.

[Macros]

regarding the source, the power men channel is ying to the females yang.
literally (that bit of unoriginality always iritated me)

Regarding Lews, I originally thought it was Rand hearing voices, and going koo koo. Then thought I was Lews re-incarnated. Now I'm convinced hes like Caprica 6 in Baltars head, just another part of his personality that he can use to justify things to himself

[Terez]

Macros, on Jan 7 2009, 05:35 PM, said:

regarding the source, the power men channel is ying to the females yang.
literally (that bit of unoriginality always iritated me)

Why? Every book has quite a lot that is unoriginal, and WoT is full of them quite on purpose - the books are littered with references to cultures and legends and belief systems in the real world.

Macros said:

Regarding Lews, I originally thought it was Rand hearing voices, and going koo koo. Then thought I was Lews re-incarnated. Now I'm convinced hes like Caprica 6 in Baltars head, just another part of his personality that he can use to justify things to himself

Preeeecisely. I'll go into lots of detail on that just cause it's fun, though. Maybe I can convince Illy.

[MecnunK]

Before you start I think I should state that I do agree Rand is LTT reborn however I dont think he is "pretending" he is hearing voices from another dude or deliberately not acknowledging parts of his own personality. Still i would like to hear what you have to say

[Terez]

MecnunK, on Jan 7 2009, 06:34 PM, said:

Before you start I think I should state that I do agree Rand is LTT reborn

That's good since RJ confirmed it.

[Terez]

Lan's cousin is Isam, Luc is Rand's uncle, and what are you talking about?