[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

 Edrigan, on 15 April 2010 - 12:00 AM, said:

Weren't Senu, Thurule and Mok brothers, or my memory fails me?

Yea they are.

[Edrigan]

Then why does Mok accept a suicidal mission that will cost not only his own life, but the life of his siblings instead of challenging the First then and there for the rank? We're given hints that Mok has almost caught up with the First as far as skill goes and the First is concerned that he wil take his place. Yet Mok still accepts his fate instead of taking his chances with the First. So either

1) He is too stupid to see that he's being send away due to his potential, which is a clear sign of weakness from his superior, so he has reason to challenge for the rank at that point, if of course he's allowed to challenge opponents that are (his rank+2) higher.(highly unlikely)

2) He doesnt challenge the First because he knows he will lose, which again is highly unlikely, because the First would simply challenge and kill Mok in a duel instead of doing this whole Punitive army thing (again not likely)

3) He doesn't challenge the First, because as we've seen him in the books, Mok epitomises the character that lives and dies by Seguleh Code of Conduct. So there must be something in that Code that prevents him from calling the First out, so instead he accepts the fate and mission he is given because his hands are tighed. (most probable)


So, what is that, that prevents Mok from dueling the First and deciding then and there his fate, but instead forces him to go against the Panion Seer armies, and having the blood of his brothers in his hands in the process.

[Sinisdar Toste]

perhaps since the first is the ruler of all the seguleh, when he tells you to make war, all other considerations become meaningless. perhaps a declaration of war by the first suspends all challenges until such time that the isle is once more free from interlopers or what have you. honestly its almost useless to speculate about any of this. mok could have ten thousand reasons why he didn't challenge the first before going up against the pannioni domin, but we're never gonna hear about 'em. maybe he's a patient man. maybe he was waiting until he was sure he could defeat the first, but the first preempted him. which seems just as likely as any reason you listed.

This post has been edited by Sinisdar Toste: 15 April 2010 - 02:43 PM

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

 Edrigan, on 15 April 2010 - 02:28 PM, said:

Then why does Mok accept a suicidal mission that will cost not only his own life, but the life of his siblings instead of challenging the First then and there for the rank? We're given hints that Mok has almost caught up with the First as far as skill goes and the First is concerned that he wil take his place. Yet Mok still accepts his fate instead of taking his chances with the First. So either

1) He is too stupid to see that he's being send away due to his potential, which is a clear sign of weakness from his superior, so he has reason to challenge for the rank at that point, if of course he's allowed to challenge opponents that are (his rank+2) higher.(highly unlikely)

2) He doesnt challenge the First because he knows he will lose, which again is highly unlikely, because the First would simply challenge and kill Mok in a duel instead of doing this whole Punitive army thing (again not likely)

3) He doesn't challenge the First, because as we've seen him in the books, Mok epitomises the character that lives and dies by Seguleh Code of Conduct. So there must be something in that Code that prevents him from calling the First out, so instead he accepts the fate and mission he is given because his hands are tighed. (most probable)

4) He is arrogant enough to be unconcerned by the Pannion armies, believing that he and his brothers are up to the task.

So, what is that, that prevents Mok from dueling the First and deciding then and there his fate, but instead forces him to go against the Panion Seer armies, and having the blood of his brothers in his hands in the process.

I go with option 4.

[Edrigan]

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perhaps since the first is the ruler of all the seguleh, when he tells you to make war, all other considerations become meaningless. perhaps a declaration of war by the first suspends all challenges until such time that the isle is once more free from interlopers or what have you. honestly its almost useless to speculate about any of this. mok could have ten thousand reasons why he didn't challenge the first before going up against the pannioni domin, but we're never gonna hear about 'em. maybe he's a patient man. maybe he was waiting until he was sure he could defeat the first, but the first preempted him. which seems just as likely as any reason you listed.

Most of the stuff we do here is speculation, it's what leads to discussions about this.
After all, everyone imagines the Malazan world differently, its not exactly math or science really.Any reason that you mention there is indeed possible, I was just trying to narrow it down a bit, and maybe come up with something that sounds more 'likely' to be the case here.We can never be 100% sure on things that happen here or their reasonings behind it, speculating and theorycrafting is all that happens. After all, the way one percieves the fantastic world that SE is storytelling us can be very different than someone elses.

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4) He is arrogant enough to be unconcerned by the Pannion armies, believing that he and his brothers are up to the task.

He still claims that Seguleh know a lot more about other civilizations and about other people, than they are credited for. Unless of course he believes that an entire army will line up, one by one, to face him, which I kinda doubt it, given that Seguleh have traveled around the world in the past, and must have come back to their island giving information to the rest of them about how the rest of the world is.Trying to take on an entire army who can have backup of various magic-users or various other mostrocities with just your swordmanship skill and the help of your two younger brothers strikes me as either plain stupid or naive, and I believe Mok is neither of those.

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

You also hafta remember that the Seguleh got pissed off at the priests coming to their island and wanted to talk to whatever ruler was sending them. That doesn't necessitate a nation sending all its armies. I highly doubt that they would have sent armies to deal with three mortal swordsmen no matter what their skill was if they hadn't run up with essentially 2 Elder Goddesses, a hound of shadow equivalent, and the First Sword of the T'lan Imass.

[Edrigan]

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You also hafta remember that the Seguleh got pissed off at the priests coming to their island and wanted to talk to whatever ruler was sending them. That doesn't necessitate a nation sending all its armies. I highly doubt that they would have sent armies to deal with three mortal swordsmen no matter what their skill was if they hadn't run up with essentially 2 Elder Goddesses, a hound of shadow equivalent, and the First Sword of the T'lan Imass.

That's what I think as well, but when these three Seguleh refer to themselves as the 'Punitive Army' I seriously doubt they do so in a 'mocking'way - chances are they probably believe what they are saying.
Judging by Moks attitude when he seriously claims that he will track down Anomander and 'force' him to take up the 7th (or 8th) place among the Agatii, these people arent something you literally mess around with, when it comes to their statements.

If I could imagine a scene where Mok, Thurule and Senu came up to Corals walls and demanded that the Pannions stop their expeditions to their island to try and recruit them- and got turned down, then they would probably try to assault the city in force , no matter how silly/foolish that does sound.

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

The thing is? I absolutely believe that's what they would have done. And unless a condor sat on them or Pannion come out of his tower to deal with them directly, they might have been able to accomplish it.

[Edrigan]

The thing is they would have probably failed because the mob could easily overbear them or the KCCM would instead chop em to pieces. They are neither immune to normal weapons nor have they any warren related abilities to escape such a death. They are normal mortals who are subject to both fatigue and injuries regardless of their swordmanship skills.

This is why I said Mok was probably 'forced' to take the mission instead of considering his other options in the first place.Taking up what ever army the Pannion probably has , with just the help of his two brothers, doesnt sound like a man who has the forsight and the ability to rise so high in the Seguleh ranks.

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

 Edrigan, on 15 April 2010 - 10:45 PM, said:

The thing is they would have probably failed because the mob could easily overbear them or the KCCM would instead chop em to pieces. They are neither immune to normal weapons nor have they any warren related abilities to escape such a death. They are normal mortals who are subject to both fatigue and injuries regardless of their swordmanship skills.

This is why I said Mok was probably 'forced' to take the mission instead of considering his other options in the first place.Taking up what ever army the Pannion probably has , with just the help of his two brothers, doesnt sound like a man who has the forsight and the ability to rise so high in the Seguleh ranks.

This started as a discussion on whether or not Seguleh were allowed to challenge higher ranked Seguleh. We are now somehow arguing whether or not we believe that Mok believed that his mission had a good chance of success or whether it was suicide as a way to prove that. I'm just going to say that I believe Mok is so certain in his efficacy he would not back down from a fight with anyone, and finish my part in the discussion unless something genuinely new comes up.

[worry]

Agreed. Not only is he fully self-assured of his success, but death would be the fitting punishment for failure. So either way, there is no way he could or would back down from such a mission without losing face entirely. In essence, with the culture so ingrained, Mok didn't even make a personal "decision" to fulfill the mission or not. There may be exceptions of course, but I read the Seguleh as more or less a politics-free society. Could be wrong, but it seems they're a very rigid, narrowly focused meritocracy. It still might be true that the 1st deliberately chose Mok for this mission, to pre-empt a challenge, but in effect he's earned the right to such a strategy.

[Edrigan]

Perhaps that is indeed the case here. I don't remember who actually mentions in the books that Mok was basically given such a mission because skillwise he was getting so good that he was indeed a vital threat for the First. I will go ahead and assume its Envy in one of her discussions (again if someone remembers better, say so). It is unclear as well how she gained such information, perhaps it has something to do with the way she keeps Seguleh under control, most probably some magic based ability, something like a charm of some shorts that allowed her to ask questions about their culture and their social structure (She probably has information about them from Anomander as well, but this incident happened after he has left the island, so its not something that he probably passed down to her).If this is the case, then that information was passed down to her by Mok, so if this a likely senario it means he is clearly aware why he was given this exact mission (though his motives for accepting it and not trying an alternate approach still remain hidden).
Trying to clarify these things will be very helpfull to our regular d20 table, since recently players have refrained from playing Seguleh out of sheer respect to their abilities, yet they are getting more bold now, and it will be great to narrow somethings down and try to get an as much as possible accurate reading in a culture like that before offering it to players as PC-playable material

[caladanbrood]

There's no doubt that the army of three was considered good enough to beat the Pannions. But it was only a punitive army, not an invasion, so they weren't there to destroy the Domin all on their own

Bottom line, they took out half (or was it a third?) of a proper Pannion army all on their own, and that was trained soldiers, not a mob, so maybe they're best to be avoided in games, as they would be rather above regular skill levels.

[Harvester]

If not for Lady Envy's presence, they would have died pretty quickly. They may be sword fighters skilled beyond all imagination, but I don't see how this would help against constant arrow fire.

[beru]

the three of them held of an army of panions ontheir own...
envy killed in front the dogs and tool to the left and the segule to the right...

i belive that the segule can fight (and win) over a panion army...

[Harvester]

I think that Envy killed off any ranged and magic wielding units, that's what mages normally do.
Well, we do not know for sure, of course.

This post has been edited by Harvester: 16 April 2010 - 11:01 AM

[Use Of Weapons]

IIRC, it was Envy in conversation with K'rul who discussed the Seguleh First's possible reasons for choosing 'someone so highly ranked as the Third' to lead the punitive army. The same conversation where K'rul says (my favourite quote of his): 'you swim in my immortal blood, and I will have your obedience in this!'

[Ulrik]

For capability of Seguleh 3rd and two brothers about taking Pannion Army - TtH minor spoiler

Spoiler

Lazan Door and Madrun Badrun drove unknown Fist, with his cadre (= mages, moranth munion) to retreat and only thing that stopped them was mountain that fell on them because Kruppe pissed off big guy with Burn´s hammer:)

From MoI I remember that Envy found already engaged Seguleh. So yes, I believe that they could anihilate solid portion of Pannion army until some really good mages confronts them. Or birds.




And for Mok´s decision.

1) 1st rule Seguland. Mok does not have ambition to rule (maybe). Its only mentioned that 1st got feeling he could be threatened. But did Mok really wanted to?

2) When 1st orders, its IMO too late to make challenge. That would mean that Mok is afraid of his quest.

3) Maybe there is rule that you have to challenge 2nd first...and 1st laugh "did you challenged 2nd? No, Im not interested he is dead, we saw him ride, chat...so come back after you find and kill him"